80 kt call out

[2-o'sinGoose]

Does anyone have any good info on 80kt callout? I know due to low energy etc. But any good links/details?

 

[crjdude]

Not 100% sure but I always thought it has something to do with brake cooling after an RTO.

Would love to hear from someone that knows for sure...

crjdude

 

[landlover]

for take off, isn't that is when you start to have rudder authority? As in, get off the tiller and "fly" the airplane even though you aren't airborne yet.

For landing, never heard of an 80kt call out.

 

[aeolian]

Does anyone have any good info on 80kt callout? I know due to low energy etc. But any good links/details?

In high performance aircraft the 80 knot call identifies the point beyond which a reject should be executed only for fire, failure, config warning or the sense the airplane won't fly (your out). The rationale is the risk reward equation of high speed aborts for any reason shifts dramatically toward the disaster of runway overrun and the attendant unpleasantries. And the callout reinforces the idea that after 80 knots we are going flying.

The callout is initiated at 80 knots unlike the V1 call which is often called 5 knots early so as to insure the reject is initiated before V1 as the data favors continuing.

Hope this helps....

 

[ackattacker]

The 80kt callout and check also ensures both airspeed indicators are working correctly.

 

[pilotyip]

80 kts on take off for power set, on landing 80 for reversers having to be stowed by 60

 

[Jim]

In high performance aircraft the 80 knot call identifies the point beyond which a reject should be executed only for fire, failure, config warning or the sense the airplane won't fly (your out). The rationale is the risk reward equation of high speed aborts for any reason shifts dramatically toward the disaster of runway overrun and the attendant unpleasantries. And the callout reinforces the idea that after 80 knots we are going flying.

The callout is initiated at 80 knots unlike the V1 call which is often called 5 knots early so as to insure the reject is initiated before V1 as the data favors continuing.

Hope this helps....

Totally wrong for the 2 part 121 airline, 1 part 125 job and 2 part 135 corporate jobs I've held. Also neve taught this way at any of the 4 type rating courses I've attended.

V1 is called at V1 and 80 kts has nothing to do with making abort criteria more stringent. 80 kts is an airspeed indicator check and in the 767 when the engines should be at t/o power with the autothrottles in "throttle hold".

 

[Jim]

for take off, isn't that is when you start to have rudder authority? As in, get off the tiller and "fly" the airplane even though you aren't airborne yet.

For landing, never heard of an 80kt call out.

If the planes I've flown, if you're on the tiller at 80 kts, you're luck if you stay on the runway.

As pilotyip said: 80 kts on rollout to give the pilot flying an idea 60kts/reversers stowed is coming shortly. We actuall call 100, 80 & 60 on the landing rollout.

 

[pal]

80 knot call

While the 80 knot call serves the purpose of airspeed and power checks on takeoff, it is also the threshold between the low and high speed takeoff abort/reject regimes. Most reputable operators and air carriers have specific criteria for high speed aborts, and rightfully so (e.g. fire, sudden power loss, major damage or loss of directional control)...

 

[HalinTexas]

At a little over 80 KIAS one some airplanes, the autobrake RTO function is armed, but I like pal's explanation the best.

 

[landlover]

If the planes I've flown, if you're on the tiller at 80 kts, you're luck if you stay on the runway.

As pilotyip said: 80 kts on rollout to give the pilot flying an idea 60kts/reversers stowed is coming shortly. We actuall call 100, 80 & 60 on the landing rollout.

the original question is too broad. the answer depends on operation and aircraft type specific. For example, on landing roll out in a GIV it's 70kts for reverses to idle and there is no requirement for them to be stowed. In a falcon 20 you can use the tiller right up to v1 and maintain center line very easily if you so desired.

 

[regionalcap]

Totally wrong for the 2 part 121 airline, 1 part 125 job and 2 part 135 corporate jobs I've held. Also neve taught this way at any of the 4 type rating courses I've attended.

V1 is called at V1 and 80 kts has nothing to do with making abort criteria more stringent. 80 kts is an airspeed indicator check and in the 767 when the engines should be at t/o power with the autothrottles in "throttle hold".

Well, the 2 121 airlines that I have worked for do change the abort criteria above 80 knots. You are entering the high speed regime and should only abort for certain things.

 

[ttflyer]

Totally wrong for the 2 part 121 airline, 1 part 125 job and 2 part 135 corporate jobs I've held. Also neve taught this way at any of the 4 type rating courses I've attended.

V1 is called at V1 and 80 kts has nothing to do with making abort criteria more stringent. 80 kts is an airspeed indicator check and in the 767 when the engines should be at t/o power with the autothrottles in "throttle hold".

Interesting... I've never flown the "heavy iron" you have, but I am surprised that a 767 operator wants you to abort for a non critical item one knot prior to V1. Also, the reason many operators, including me, call V1 5 kts early is that V1 is the speed "at which the abort maneuver must have been initiated" - in other words you need to be moving the power levers to idle and pressing the brakes AT V1 if you are going to make your numbers. Some call it early for this reason, some don't...

As to the 80kts call, lots of "milestone" events happen as has been mentioned:

Airspeed indicators cross checked, Power should be set, Rudder is effective (and time to transition from the tiller to the yoke on many aircraft types), abort criteria may be different (depending on SOP) and I'll add that many airplanes inhibit non-critical CAS messages above 80 kts - So it's just a oral signal that this important takeoff milestone has been passed and so far, everything is A-OK...

 

[dhc8fo]

One of the most once intresting things I have seen/learned over the years in several aircraft types and in the training department is that just about all pilots are not able to distinguish between failure TYPES in the small amount of time there is between 80kts and v1. So to sit there and say that you are going to abort for this, this, and this, but not this, this and this is silly. Youre off the end of the end of the runway by the time you decide whether to stop or go. I have officially adopted the philosophy that any failure below v1 we abort, after v1 we go. 80kts is (should be) an airspeed crosscheck. I also set the policy for my flight department and don't have someone trying to tell me otherwise so your situation may vary, but think about it.

 

[svcta]

Totally wrong for the 2 part 121 airline, 1 part 125 job and 2 part 135 corporate jobs I've held. Also neve taught this way at any of the 4 type rating courses I've attended.

V1 is called at V1 and 80 kts has nothing to do with making abort criteria more stringent. 80 kts is an airspeed indicator check and in the 767 when the engines should be at t/o power with the autothrottles in "throttle hold".

The old man was a 767 guy (and 727, 737, 777, even typed in the 787 and was a factory sim instructor for Boeing) according to him you are correct about the airspeed check and thottles, however, the Boeing philosophy meshes with mine and others here: 80 knots is the transition to the high-speed regime. From that point on the list of abort items is cut down to, quoting him: "Engine fire, excessive vibration (severe engine damage/failure), perception that the airplane will not fly, or a loss of directional control". Prior to 80 knots you would obviously abort for anything at all.

This is consistent with my understanding of the 80 knot call. Different manufacturers may attach other things to it, but the root of the matter is that this is the point where you've made the statement that you really don't want to abort unless you really, really have to.

My brief is always the same: "We'll abort for anything at all before 80 knots, either of us can call the abort. Between 80 and V1 we'll abort only for an engine failure, engine fire, loss of directional control, or if we think that the airplane will not fly. Anything at all after V1 we will take in flight. I will fly and talk on the radio, you run the appropriate checkllist when we get to a safe altitude." Then a quick run through of any weather or mechanical considerations (usually there are none). And the only airline I worked for directed us to call V1 at V1-5 for the reason that TTFlyer pointed out. It takes about 5 knots to complete the phrase "V1" in every jet I've flown. So if I call it at V1 you could very well be initiating an high speed reject at a speed well above V1.

The "we'll abort for anything prior to V1, now let's go" philosophy I find to be confounding. Let's assume V1 of 130. Here we go bouncing down the runway and some yellow message pops up at 126 knots. We going to reject for that? Why? If I'm the one flying I don't have the capability in 6 knots (probably less than two seconds of time), to look in to the cockpit, focus on a message, determine whether or not we can go or not, communicate that decision, and then take the proper action. Conversely the guy next to me would only have been told to "abort for anything" prior to V1, so he calls "ABORT!!!" and I slam on the brakes only to find out that he called a reject on a hydraulic message that left me with no anti-skid on a relatively short runway. Now we could have bigtime problems. Or what about a blown tire? Do we abort for that in the same scenario? I can think of more than one accident caused by a crew that was unsure of their reject procedures. One guy going, the guy sitting next to him not going- airplane ends up in a Piggly Wiggly across the street.

The point is that in most cases you're far better off taking most airplanes in the air with all but the most major of issues once you've crossed a certain point in takeoff roll. 80 knots seems to be a fairly universal acknowledgement of having crossed that line. You initiate a rejected T/O at V1-4 for a door message and you have made a test pilot of yourself (Caveat: unless you're flying an airplane that says "abort for a door message" in the AFM somewhere. )

 

[BoilerUP]

While the 80 knot call serves the purpose of airspeed and power checks on takeoff, it is also the threshold between the low and high speed takeoff abort/reject regimes.

This.

When I did my CE500 type, the sim center used a 70kt call for this...I had always used 80kts in previous aircraft so that's what I used and they were fine with that.

"80kts we'll abort for any malfunction (low speed regime), above 80kts we'll abort for engine fire, failure, red warning or loss of directional control (high speed regime)". Others may brief and operate differently, but this works for us.

Time and time again, high speed aborts have proven to be bad news.

 

[svcta]

One of the most once intresting things I have seen/learned over the years in several aircraft types and in the training department is that just about all pilots are not able to distinguish between failure TYPES in the small amount of time there is between 80kts and v1. So to sit there and say that you are going to abort for this, this, and this, but not this, this and this is silly. Youre off the end of the end of the runway by the time you decide whether to stop or go. I have officially adopted the philosophy that any failure below v1 we abort, after v1 we go. 80kts is (should be) an airspeed crosscheck. I also set the policy for my flight department and don't have someone trying to tell me otherwise so your situation may vary, but think about it.

Pretty easy 1: Fire message, that's a bell and a master warning light, hard to misinterpret

Pretty easy 2: Engine failure: The runway rapidly goes to one side of the windscreen and the guy flying says "oh, sh1t"

Pretty easy 3 : Loss of directional control, see pretty easy #2.

Admittedly less easy, but still I would imagine that when you know, you just know: Preception that that the airplane will not fly.

The point is that these events require almost ZERO interpretation.

 

[ttflyer]

One of the most once intresting things I have seen/learned over the years in several aircraft types and in the training department is that just about all pilots are not able to distinguish between failure TYPES in the small amount of time there is between 80kts and v1. So to sit there and say that you are going to abort for this, this, and this, but not this, this and this is silly. Youre off the end of the end of the runway by the time you decide whether to stop or go. I have officially adopted the philosophy that any failure below v1 we abort, after v1 we go. 80kts is (should be) an airspeed crosscheck. I also set the policy for my flight department and don't have someone trying to tell me otherwise so your situation may vary, but think about it.

That's fine if it's your SOP - "Abort below V1 for anything." If you're my boss, and that's the policy you set, I'll follow it. However, in my experience, there is time to make decisions above 80kts. I've had a non-critical message pop up (in an airplane that is supposed to inhibit non-critical CAS messages above 80kts) at about 100kts on a runway that was PLENTY long enough to stop, and I still evaluated the airplane's condition - good power, good control, no other issues, and elected to take that problem into the air. In retrospect, it was exactly the right decision. Just like so many other things in the world, this is not black and white. They pay us to make these decisions. Taking away that capability is lowest common denominator thinking, if you ask me...

 

[dhc8fo]

Pretty easy 1: Fire message, that's a bell and a master warning light, hard to misinterpret

Pretty easy 2: Engine failure: The runway rapidly goes to one side of the windscreen and the guy flying says "oh, sh1t"

Pretty easy 3 : Loss of directional control, see pretty easy #2.

Admittedly less easy, but still I would imagine that when you know, you just know: Preception that that the airplane will not fly.

The point is that these events require almost ZERO interpretation.

That is what you THINK. It is not true. It has been shown in the SIM and I have seen it over and over again with many students. If given the failure (between 80 kts and V1) and you simultaneously make your go/no-go decision and the failure is also immediately removed, most pilots can't tell you exactly what the failure was accurately with 100% certainty. You might be in the ballpark, and you might get lucky with a 50/50/90, but generally, you haven't had enough time to determine which light is blinking at you and why or what has failed or why you have lost control, etc.

(Edited to clarify that we are talking about the few seconds between 80kts and V1)
**Also, it depends on how close 80 kts is to V1 speed, obvisously.

 

[BoilerUP]

No way in hell I'd abort at V1 -5kts for a caution message like, oh I dunno, a bleed overheat or wing anti-ice or pitot/static heaters or door seal.

But that's just me.