757 Lands on Taxiway at EWR & Pilots Bolt

[LJDRVR]

Sounds like a good simulator scenario for a PC. "OK boys you are going to have to land at an airport we serve. If you could make it a runway that would be great."

Wow, what a cunning display of ego and sarcasm. Answer me a question: In your entire career, have you ever been on a flight deck where somebody was lining up on the wrong runway? I'm willing to bet that like the rest of us, the answer is yes. Also like the rest of us, the error was caught. Ask yourself what additional factors needed to be present to where you would have missed the mistake? If you're being honest, the answer is not many. Of course, with you being perfect and all, why even bother when you can just anonymously criticize others, smug in the knowledge that every flight you ever flew was flawless, with NO chance of you doing anything like this.

Oh I forgot you are a newbie to the airline world. You are one of those guys that does not know what "round dials" refer to. You think a 300 is an outdated design, that in itself is hilarious. Round dial 300's are different than real round dial steam powered VOR/DME airplanes of yore. The 300's all have FMS's, autoflight with ATS and Flight directors correct? The 300 MCP is similar to the 757. Of course if all else fails the pilot could be a pilot and manipulate the airplane via a series of control inputs from the Yoke and (don't let me scare you here with this) VISUALY acquire the runway and (gasp) land. Are you sure this Captains name is not listed in a publication that might be SCatterd ABout? Also what was up with the F/O?

Wow, yet again I'm awed by the absolutely perfect confluence of technology and good old-fashioned seat of the pants skill that are hallmarks of your career. Are you for real? What about those that went before you? Guys who were 19 years old in 1919, and learned to fly in JN-4's? They worked their way through contact flying, learned instruments in it's infancy, and spent a lifetime slogging it it through the clouds with ancient instrumentation. They plowed through the ITCZ at 9,000 MSL, with nothing but CELNAV for overwater. They finished their careers in the 707, having dealt with all the problems high-altitude, high-speed, swept-wing flight came with in those early years. How would those old-timers characterize how easy you've had it, with a lifetime of DME and flight directors? (Not to mention no engine failures) You started your career with the good ol' Collins FD-108/109 in front of you, and you want to make fun of this guy for never "roughing it" ? (My guess is those old timers would never make fun of you, most of them posessed way more class and elan than you. Quite frankly, they would have loved to have the automation.)

Here's a news flash: There are plenty of skilled, qualified aviators in today's cockpits. Just because a line pilot spends his days punching buttons, doesn't mean anything. That same individual may fly for the NYANG, in ski-equiped LC-130's that he flys to Antarctica, landing in 0/0 condition on the skiway. Do you think maybe that guy has some skills? How about a pilot that worked his way up through years of Beech 1900 flying in the northeast, all raw data and no autopilot?

Take your misguided superiority someplace else, nobody wants to hear your self-serving crap around here.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

LJDRVR

Bravo!

This guy asked for a serving of humble pie.

 

[ironspud]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/1031200...gionalnews_murray_weiss_and_jeremy_olshan.htm

Holy Cow!

Mistake 1- Landing a 757 on a 70' taxiway at a major airport
Mistake 2- Pilots just taxi clear and leave the airport without notifying anyone. WTFO!

Maybe there's another side to the story than what the NY Post reports, but it sure seems whacked.

This is no big deal. AA does it all the time at SEA.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/1031200...gionalnews_murray_weiss_and_jeremy_olshan.htm

Holy Cow!

Mistake 1- Landing a 757 on a 70' taxiway at a major airport
Mistake 2- Pilots just taxi clear and leave the airport without notifying anyone. WTFO!

Maybe there's another side to the story than what the NY Post reports, but it sure seems whacked.

How do you know the pilots left the airport without notifying anyone? The NY Post is not a legitmate source on this and I sure as heck wouldn't trust them on this issue.

Does the NY Post know if either pilot filled out an ASAP? Do they also know exactly what is in those ASAP's?

Tejas

 

[3BCat]

And now, for something completely different!

"Informed sources close to the investigation confirm that the captain involved in this incident turned sixty on short final." Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Falconjet]

......

Fj

 

[MRYFLYER]

Answer me a question: In your entire career, have you ever been on a flight deck where somebody was lining up on the wrong runway?.

Someone mishearing a runway assignment is a far cry from landing on a taxiway. For you to equate the same is far fetched. Runway lighting and markings aside, a taxiway is a taxiway and a runway is a runway. Correcting a hear back or clarification of an instruction is in no way the same.

What about those that went before you? They plowed through the ITCZ at 9,000 MSL, with nothing but CELNAV for overwater. They finished their careers in the 707, having dealt with all the problems high-altitude, high-speed, swept-wing flight came with in those early years.

I am very well acquainted with what the previous generation of aviators had to do to survive. However, the recent cadre of pilots such as this IAHRJ guy have not an idea about the airplanes that are flying today. He equates a 300 with a steam gauged airplane and that again is a lack of knowledge. These new guys think aviation started at the introduction of the RJ and they were the tip of the spear. They think the 300 is an "old" technology jet and have not a clue about flying the beam or how the pilots did it in the old days. Your comments are better directed at those like IAHRJ. His defense of taxiway landing because the guy was "new" the airplane begs the question. What was the Captain landing on in the previous equipment he was flying? Does CAL have floatplanes that we don't know about?

What I find intersting is you can not defend the actions of the crew so you attack me for pointing out the obvious. Good diversionary tactic but the end of the day the airplane still landed on a taxiway. Think how bad this could have been had there been traffic on that taxiway?

Here's a news flash: There are plenty of skilled, qualified aviators in today's cockpits. Just because a line pilot spends his days punching buttons, doesn't mean anything. That same individual may fly for the NYANG, in ski-equiped LC-130's that he flys to Antarctica, landing in 0/0 condition on the skiway. Do you think maybe that guy has some skills? How about a pilot that worked his way up through years of Beech 1900 flying in the northeast, all raw data and no autopilot?

You really have missed the plot somewhere in the play. Where did I say there were no skilled aviators left in the world? At the end of the day you still must produce and landing a 757 on a taxiway is a error that can not be washed away with a background of c130 0/0 landings in antartica or B1900 raw data time. Your as good as your last screw up.

Take your misguided superiority someplace else, nobody wants to hear your self-serving crap around here.

Feel free to heed your own advice, Mr Misguidedsuperiorityselfserving Crapper.

 

[RightTraffic]

I think we all have had our share of mistakes as pilots.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Oh but for the grace of God go I.

 

[IAHERJ]

Where did I defend the guy by stating that he was new to the aircraft?? I just stated that the captain was just off of IOE and the fo was still on probation. I never stated that this was the reason for the incident. I stated this as a side note so those who are still in the business(sorry you have to go MryFlyer, I'm sure you'll be missed by those at your airline) can have some sort of context as to how these guys probably feel right now. And yes, the 737-300 round dial is considered a steam guage aircraft by most people flying airliners for a living today. Sorry if you feel I'm young and naive but having no glass or a map display is considered old school at most airlines and requires a glass transition course at most carriers. BTW, I didn't start my career in an RJ, and I've flown the -300 round dial several times. Enjoy whatever life you allow yourself to have outside of aviation bud, because you seem very bitter here. Life is too short.

IAHERJ

 

[LJDRVR]

O.K., How about this:

First and foremost, I am defending the actions of those aviators Saturday night. That doesn't lessen the seriousness of what they did.

I've carefully re-read your first post, and I've noticed the level of hyperbole and smugness are not what I believed they were. Your response to IAHERJ, however, was nothing less than self-aggrandizement.

The basic gist is that he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's a young whippersnapper who doesn't even know that the -300's are not "true" steam gauge aircraft. Again, are you for real? Is there that large of a gulf between twisting the knob to VOR LOC on the MCP of a -200, vs. pressing a button on the Sperry? Same HSI/ADI presentation. Are you trying to say that the older airframes with their more primitive autopilots are somehow more challenging to fly? Furthermore, how do you even know what his mindset and background is?

I may be misreading you a little bit, but what comes off very clearly in your missive is your sense of superiority in upbraiding a poster. You come off as a know-it-all.

Look, I'm sure you'll agree we're splitting hairs over a stupid issue that doesn't really matter, back to the task at hand, the incident at Newark.

How about this: Until we're in possession of all the facts here, maybe we should hold off on our negative judgement of the crew. The circling approach they did can be very challenging, (Post-frontal passage EWR, night, no RCL, no taxiway edge lighting, but taxiway CL lights. A LH REIL light that often fails. [crappy facility MX from Port Authority]) let's wait and see what all the facts are before we pass judgement. The crew involved had no SCABS, and the FO was a pre 9-11 hire. Both are highly respected.

Instead of spending our time attacking each other, (guilty) how about we all try to do something constructive here instead?

I'll go first:

When arriving at EWR on marginal WX day, call the helicopter frequency about 100 miles out. You're not too busy, and have a chance to talk to a low-workload local controller who not only can help you build a good picture of what's happening for briefing purposes, but may be able to "grease" your arrival by putting in a runway request for you with approach, before you even fly much of the arrival.

Alright, your turn.

 

[:-)]

well, I'm starting to feel old. me, the "done time in a real steam gauge" guy. BTW, I'd rather fly an old Diesel9 with RDI's, mechanical DME's with no GS read out and no type of RNAV than I would the modern stuff.

None of which has anything to do with being able to properly identify the correct landing surface. We've all f'd up. All of you pompous arses need to just take a chill pill.

Happy to have made my monumental errors at the right times, not the wrong.

Good Luck to you two who made the news.

 

[densoo]

Pilots didn't "Bolt"

(CBS) NEWARK, N.J. An investigation by the FAA has begun after Continental Airlines grounded a flight crew Saturday evening when a jet landed on a taxiway at Newark Airport instead of an adjacent runway.

Skid marks still pinpoint the spot where the plane touched down and clearly indicate something wasn't right. The marks were left by Continental Flight 1883 after the pilot landed in the wrong place. Port Authority officials say he was supposed to land on runway 2-9, which is 150 feet wide. Instead, he landed on the taxiway which is only 70 feet wide.

"This is the first case I've ever heard of at Newark of an airplane landing on a taxiway," retired NTSB investigator Al Yurman said.

Yurman, who is also a licensed pilot, says the incident would have been disastrous had there been another plane on the taxiway at the time.

"There's two pilots on that aircraft. One of them should know where they're going, both of them should know where they're going," Yurman said.

The jetliner was a Boeing 757 and did in fact have two cockpit crew members -- the pilot and the co-pilot -- along with 157 passengers on board.

Passengers expressed concern on Tuesday, but know blunders like this can happen.

"To be honest, it's a little bit scary. I know they're trained to know what they're doing, but they're human. They're going to make mistakes," said passenger Alana Wilson.

Continental released a statement about the incident: "The pilots have been temporarily removed from flying duties and are assisting the company in analyzing the incident."

Sources say that moments after the crew brought the 757 to an abrupt stop on the taxiway, the flight crew admitted to airport officials that they had simply made a mistake.

Meanwhile, CBS 2 has learned that it was the less experienced co-pilot who was at the controls at the time of the landing. Sources also tell us that although the captain was experienced, he was new to the 757.

Continental Airlines will not comment on ongoing investigations, only to say that the flight crew has been suspended.

"Its hard to understand how this could be anything but pilot's fault," said Bob Orr, transportation correspondent for CBS News. "All pilots at the controls are responsible for the safety of everyone in the airplane and on the ground. It's up to them to find the runway and land properly."

Investigators also say the air traffic controller who cleared the flight for landing initially didn't know something had gone wrong.

"He realized he couldn't find the airplane. It was dark, he started looking around the taxiways looking in the air thinking he maybe went around. At that point he noticed an airplane taxiing westbound on [taxiway Z], which is the parallel taxiway to runway 2-9," said Russ Halleran, president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association at the airport.

But some pilots say the runway the jet was supposed to land on isn't easy access.

"Runway 2-9 is a little trickier than the others to land on," said Captain Thomas Heidenberger, a retired pilot who often flew into Newark. "There are no charted approaches -- in other words, an instrument landing system or a landing system guidance for that particular runway -- and the pilot has to visually look out of the cockpit to the runway and line themselves up with the runway."

Sources say one leading theory is that the pilots misjudged the runway lines.

The FAA says over the past 31 years at all the airports nationwide, there have only been eight incidents where the planes have landed on the wrong runway. Of course in this incident, the wrong runway wasn't a runway at all, but instead a taxiway.

(© MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.)

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_304193212.html

 

[Bosley]

I think we all have had our share of mistakes as pilots.

No kidding, but the UAL guys perfected it! It makes for great recurrent talk!
Just simple things such as rudder skills!

 

[SonicPig]

No kidding, but the UAL guys perfected it! It makes for great recurrent talk!
Just simple things such as rudder skills!

So how many times did you get turned down?

 

[Fins Up]

Nobody's perfect...we all make mistakes....yada yada. You can't ignore the fact that these guys fu#*ed up royally. Come on - Two professional pilots with thousands of hours of experience landing a plane with 157 passengers on a taxiway by mistake?!

1. I'm pretty sure that, beginning with your very first flight in an airplane, landing on the proper runway (or at least not a taxiway) is a very important.

2. I can hear one or both pilots thinking, "There are no numbers or threshold markings on this runway. That's weird. Oh well, I'm sure it's fine."

3. If anyone else was on that taxiway, 157+ people could have been killed.

I can't get these three things out of my head. No, I'm not perfect. Yes I, like us all, do really stupid things from time to time. And I'm not saying anyone needs to be fired or have their ticket pulled. But the fact remains that what these two did was MONUMENTALLY STUPID.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Who says that the pilots didn't report it? What's the source? I can't believe that so many pilots bite on this article from undisclosed sources. What a bunch of crap.

Agreed !!! Now, for some historical perspective....back in 1989-90 time frame...a B-737 went off the end of rwy 31 at LGA.

It went into the East river. After all the pax were taken care of, the Pam Am J/S'er offered his nearby crashpad to the cockpit crew. Now, the company knew where the pilots were....the ALPA folks knew where the pilots were...BUT...the NYC press didn't know where the pilots were.

...And that set it off....

Dramatic headlines, the DA threatening to press charges...even had a nearby Marriott bartender claim that the Captain of that airplane was in the Marriott bar drinking just a couple of hours before the crash....which the NYC press took off and ran with...even though, that crew had been on duty all day long, and not even near that hotel.

In the end, no charges were pressed, no retractions from the NYC newspapers, or the bartender....and both pilots still have their jobs.

Now, in this CAL situation, just because the flight crew didn't hang around long enough for the NY Post reported doesn't necessarily mean that they "bolted". No doubt CAL knows how to contact them as do their ALPA reps...thats really all that matters....isn't it?

Tejas

 

[ptarmigan]

No doubt CAL knows how to contact them as do their ALPA reps...thats really all that matters....isn't it?

Tejas

Well, technically, all that LEGALLY matters is that NTSB and FAA know how to contact them, but the above two entities should facilitate that. Just nitpicking your post!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Nobody's perfect...we all make mistakes....yada yada.
No, I'm not perfect. Yes I, like us all, do really stupid things from time to time. And I'm not saying anyone needs to be fired or have their ticket pulled. But the fact remains that what these two did was MONUMENTALLY STUPID.

Why don't we wait until the investigation is complete before we all start the name calling. NObody will have their ticket pulled or lose their job over this.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Well, technically, all that LEGALLY matters is that NTSB and FAA know how to contact them, but the above two entities should facilitate that. Just nitpicking your post!

You are correct, sir !!! Also, the crew doesn't have to talk to anybody until they are ready, and prepared....by their ALPA Flight Safety folks.

Tejas