757 Lands on Taxiway at EWR & Pilots Bolt

[V1cutsrfun]

Agreed !!! Now, for some historical perspective....back in 1989-90 time frame...a B-737 went off the end of rwy 31 at LGA.

It went into the East river. After all the pax were taken care of, the Pam Am J/S'er offered his nearby crashpad to the cockpit crew. Now, the company knew where the pilots were....the ALPA folks knew where the pilots were...BUT...the NYC press didn't know where the pilots were.

...And that set it off....

Dramatic headlines, the DA threatening to press charges...even had a nearby Marriott bartender claim that the Captain of that airplane was in the Marriott bar drinking just a couple of hours before the crash....which the NYC press took off and ran with...even though, that crew had been on duty all day long, and not even near that hotel.

In the end, no charges were pressed, no retractions from the NYC newspapers, or the bartender....and both pilots still have their jobs.

Now, in this CAL situation, just because the flight crew didn't hang around long enough for the NY Post reported doesn't necessarily mean that they "bolted". No doubt CAL knows how to contact them as do their ALPA reps...thats really all that matters....isn't it?

Tejas

Nail on the Head, Tejas, your Comments like usual are on the money

Hats off to you

V1

 

[starchkr]

"Runway 2-9 is a little trickier than the others to land on," said Captain Thomas Heidenberger, a retired pilot who often flew into Newark. "There are no charted approaches -- in other words, an instrument landing system or a landing system guidance for that particular runway -- and the pilot has to visually look out of the cockpit to the runway and line themselves up with the runway."


HOLY $HIT, we are still supposed to be looking out the windows to line ourselves up with a runway??????????? I am glad that someone finally clued me in on that one.

First off, i know we all make mistakes, and i am in no way ragging on these two for messing up, buuuuut...wouldn't it make it MUCH easier to land on a runway if you didn't have to worry about confusing taxiway lights for runway lights? I would think that the lack of taxiway edge lights there would simply make you shoot for a landing between the only two sets of lights available, the runway edge lights...sounds simple enough. Hmmm, i don't know though, i have never flown into EWR so i really cannot pass any harsh judgement.

 

[Sniper Bob]

What was ceiling and visibility at the time of the incident?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Also if you have ever done a circle to 29 at night you know that the PAPI is on the right side of the runway where 99% of the time its on the left... The taxiway lights on ZULU are a great deal brighter that Rwy 29. There are no REILs or ODALS or anything to make the runway stand out. I know of many people including myself who have been intially fooled by the set up and rolled out on Taxiway Z in EWR, obviously in all cases it got fixed before anyone noticed.
The weather in EWR on Saturday was awful with winds gusting to 40+ and lots of windshear and the like.

Thanks for pointing that out Flatspin.....it's always easy for the Monday monring quarterbacks to read the news, look at a Jepp diagram and pass judgement without considering or understanding what those two guys were really seeing.

 

[FlyBunny]

Airspeed, altitude & brains, you've gotta have at least two.

Sadly, in your case, you have only two as well: Airspeed & Altitude!

Bunny

 

[Amish RakeFight]

What was ceiling and visibility at the time of the incident?

This was from another thread discussing the accident. I believe the CAL 757 touched down a little after 6 PM.

1. We landed at 17:20 and the sun was setting -- a beautiful sunset because of the thin overcast. So, I don't think the sun was in their eyes.

2. Visibility was probably 20+ miles.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Sadly, in your case, you have only two as well: Airspeed & Altitude!

Bunny

Well, judging from his posts compared to yours, I'm inclined to say that he does have brains.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Not exusing what happened, but EWR doesn't have any taxiway edge lighting. I don't think there are any other major US airports that can say that (but I'm not positive).

Combine that with a relatively challenging circling approach and I can certainly see how it could happen.

LGA Doesn't either. Just weak little sticks.

 

[Squanto]

What is going to happen to these guys? Those out there with a lot of Airline time, will the Union throw them under the bus? The FAA will pull them out for how long? A year or more.

Say a prayer for those guys, they need all the help they can get.

Rgs

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Me too. Six years flying in to EWR and only circled to 29 once.

If you can't do it, don't accept it...

 

[DoubleB]

Just when you thought you were tired of "Clear right" at every danged intersection!!

A good reminder to all of us why we clear EVERY intersection! Imagine if someone had pulled out in front of them.

 

[stratocoaster]

Why don't we wait until the investigation is complete before we all start the name calling. NObody will have their ticket pulled or lose their job over this.

Tejas

that's probably not true. the probationary f.o. may certainly lose his job over this.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Whoa!

Thank goodness the aircraft didn't land gear up with THREE pilots in the cockpit (Hey, "Fins Up", ask a VP-1 guy about that one!)...or run through a fence and into an intersection/gas station...or flip over and/or burn...or land at Ellsworth AFB by mistake...or, ah geez...you guys get the picture.

A screw-up under difficult circumstances.

The truth is...(wait for it)...their POI gave them permission to conduct a "test" to see if taxiways can be used to reduce congestion on the runways.

Two...Two...two threads in one!

I rule!

 

[no1pilot2000]

I guess two more pilot positions just became available at Continental airlines. Maybe the pilots became temporarily color blind. Remember, taxiway lights are blue and runway lights are white.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I guess two more pilot positions just became available at Continental airlines. Maybe the pilots became temporarily color blind. Remember, taxiway lights are blue and runway lights are white.

If there are lights...you've got the color key down pat. EWR has reflector "sticks" on the taxiway edges instead of lights. I say again...there are no taxiway edge lights at EWR.

 

[LJDRVR]

Whoa!

Thank goodness the aircraft didn't land gear up with THREE pilots in the cockpit (Hey, "Fins Up", ask a VP-1 guy about that one!)...or run through a fence and into an intersection/gas station...or flip over and/or burn...or land at Ellsworth AFB by mistake...or, ah geez...you guys get the picture.

A screw-up under difficult circumstances.

The truth is...(wait for it)...their POI gave them permission to conduct a "test" to see if taxiways can be used to reduce congestion on the runways.

Two...Two...two threads in one!

I rule!

BWHAHAHAHAHAH.....kick ass!

 

[PCL_128]

The truth is...(wait for it)...their POI gave them permission to conduct a "test" to see if taxiways can be used to reduce congestion on the runways.

Classic!!! :beer:

 

[CAL EWR B737]

I guess two more pilot positions just became available at Continental airlines. Maybe the pilots became temporarily color blind. Remember, taxiway lights are blue and runway lights are white.

Your incorrect on both counts. The captain will keep his job and more than likely the probationary pilot who came from an airline flying world wide heavy international experience.

Newark doesn't have blue taxi way lights only green center line lights. The PAPI is also not standard on R/W 29 at EWR and is on the right side. I was on the same taxi way they landed on six hours later at midnight Sat and it's a big black hole.

 

[717capt]

Like Lear said in an earlier post.. Who cares.. sh!t happens.. lets move on

 

[Diesel-9]

There is no excuse for this. Can't believe anyone would try and make excuses for these guys.

 

[igneousy2]

I guess two more pilot positions just became available at Continental airlines. Maybe the pilots became temporarily color blind. Remember, taxiway lights are blue and runway lights are white.

Sorry...all of you hard up for these guys jobs...ASAP program is going strong at Continental...

Max FAA will do = Administrative action <- sorry no suspensions/revocations likely. sole source? Would the FAA have known which plane it was had the pilot's not fessed up? FAA has been more interested in keeping their ASAP programs going than ending pilot careers. The company is usually the bigger worry.

Company = probably just some retraining...whatever the committee says they need to do. At least the Captain...if the FO was in fact on probation (one person here says pre 9/11 hire...the other says probationary FO) he may be terminated. In G. Bethune's book worse to first...he even talked about NOT firing a crew for doing a gear up landing because it was an honest mistake, they were following procedures up until that point, and they fessed up. All of these seem to be true in this incident.

No matter what really happened this was definetly not deliberate and from the posts from the guys that have been there...there is a long list of things that could have gone wrong to get them onto that taxiway. This will in all likelihood be covered under their ASAP program and ammount to little more than an extra training event or two or three for the crew --- as it should be.

No seniority number for you!

Later

 

[igneousy2]

of course...there is this big problem of all this over-blown media coverage enticing some mid-level, career minded manager at the FAA wanting some time in the spot-light....hopefully not.

Later

 

[densoo]

It's not a desk job. A hundred things can bite you on each and every flight.

Pilot error caused a B-1 LancerÊto land gear-up at a forward-deployed location May 8, according to an aircraft accident investigation report released Sept. 18.
The co-pilot suffered a minor back injury and the other three crew members were not injured. Damage totaled approximately $7.9 million for the aircraft and the damage to the runway totaled approximately $14,025.
The aircraft is assigned to the 9th Expeditionary Bomb Squadron of theÊ7th Bomb Wing at Dyess AFB, Texas.
Investigators concludedÊthe cause of the mishap was both pilots' failure to lower the landing gear during the aircraft's approach and landing. Contributing factors for the pilots' failure to lower the landing gear were the co-pilot's task oversaturation; the co-pilot's urgency to complete a long mission; both pilots' inattention to instrument readings and the descent/before landing checklist, and the co-pilot's false beliefÊthe pilot had lowered the landing gear.
According to the report, the pilot unexpectedly turned over aircraft control to the co-pilot on the final approach. The pilot reported to the air traffic control tower that the landing gear was down despite the fact that the descent/before landing checklist was never completed and the landing gear was never lowered. The red warning light in the gear handle, indicating all landing gear was not down and locked, was illuminated for more than four minutes during the approach.Ê Additionally, at the time the aircraft landed, the three green position lights, which illuminate after the landing gear has locked in the down position, were not illuminated.
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$...s/pacflyer/oct8-2006/On-59-b-1-pilots-at.html

On a cloudless morning in April of this year, a C-5B transport of the 436th Airlift Wing took off from Dover AFB in Delaware, bound for Ramstein Air Base in Germany on a routine supply mission. The C-5 is the United States Air Force’s largest transport; this one’s takeoff weight was 742,000 pounds, including a quarter-million pounds of fuel. Aboard were 17 people; the crew included three pilots and three flight engineers, collectively representing more than 26,000 hours and 92 years of C-5 flight experience.
Shortly after takeoff the crew observed an intermittent warning light for an unlocked thrust reverser on the number two engine, the inboard engine on the left side of the aircraft. An unlocked reverser is a potential hazard—there is a chance of unexpected deployment in flight—and so after due deliberation and cross-checks the crew secured the engine and turned back to Dover. They did not declare an emergency, but did request an expedited approach. They anticipated a routine landing, though at a higher than usual weight; they had, after all, three good engines and a perfectly functional aircraft. A few minutes later, the C-5 lay, a mangled wreck, a third of a mile short of the Dover runway.
http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=727&page_number=1

 

[CAL EWR B737]

This incident has been accepted into ASAP. The (ERC) Event Review Committee which includes company, union and FAA representatives meets next week. The FO was indeed on probation who has a strong background and good work history and will most likely keep his job. Enough said!

 

[AVDAD]

It's the FAAs fault, tricking those poor guys by putting the papi on the wrong side. All approaches should look the same at the business end of the runway.

Just an Old Mans opinion,

Avdad

 

[sleeves]

One more example of why this is not an easy job.

 

[Captain Overs]

It's the FAAs fault, tricking those poor guys by putting the papi on the wrong side. All approaches should look the same at the business end of the runway.

Just an Old Mans opinion,

Avdad

You're kidding right? Last time I checked you can look at the back of the airport diagram to see where the papi is located for a particular runway. That'd be a clue to me.

 

[big_al]

you guys want a real laugh? check out the a.net topic on this

 

[Fearless Tower]

you guys want a real laugh? check out the a.net topic on this

I'm afraid......VERY afraid!

I can only imagine the 'theories' over there!

 

[:-)]

I guess two more pilot positions just became available at Continental airlines. Maybe the pilots became temporarily color blind. Remember, taxiway lights are blue and runway lights are white.

Let me help you a little bit here buddy, when replying on a topic with over one page of replys, it helps to read the entire string before replying.