737 PFT: Set Me Straight

[mach none]

Re: Re: 737 PFT: Set Me Straight

Easy... SWA saves $$$ by not having to schedule a checkride with the Feds when the FO is due for upgrade. Just in house training and check-ride and you're in the left seat.

Nothing against SWA but they are the pioneers of PFT and the no frills "cheap-skate" airline, so IMO its all about the $$$ baby! Furthermore, since they already require applicants to have 1000 PIC turbine plus three letters of rec. attesting to flying skills, they know d@mn-well you'll be able to fly a 737.

I could not have said it better.

 

[MetroSheriff]

(DR. Mc Coy, looking down at the horse) "He's dead, Jim."

ROFLMAO.


Capt. Kirk: "I think your you're right Bones. But what say we kick him around for a bit just to make sure...."

Dr. McCoy: "Whatever you say, you are the skipper. But in my experienced, intergalactic, medical expertise...that horse is stone dead."

Capt. Kirk: "Oh I believe you, Bones 'ol man. It won't serve any purpose whatsoever, but what the hell, right? It'll be fun."

Dr. Spock: "Jesus Chri$t!!! Would you two morons shut the fock up, you are giving me a mind-meld-graine!!!"

 

[RJones]

As I understand it the 737 type-rating requirement goes back to when Southwest was a very young company. As a start-up you want a pilot that can be inserted into the left seat at a moment's notice, hence a 737 type rated pilot. Corporate and 135 charter operators ask for this sort of thing all the time and if you look in the back of Flight International magazine you see foreign airlines asking for it as well.

Many years ago Southwest was thinking of eliminating this requirement of the 737 type rating but received backlash from the pilots at Southwest saying, if I had to get the type then every new-hire will have it. The compromise was the no type for the interview but must get one within six months to be considered for a class deal.

Also, I keep seeing the garb about it costing money to get the FAA to come over and do a checkride. The only cost associated with getting the FAA to do a type ride in my experience has been finding an FAA guy to do it, then getting them scheduled.

RJ

 

[tredding@swa]

ALPO?

Looks as if the horse is quickly becomeing dog food here, ALPO - not to be cornfused with ALPA... hey... wait a minute -

union dues - that could be considered PFJ, couldn't it?????

Spock to Bones & Kirk - " This discussion is not logical".....


Have fun everyone - Tred

 

[w8n4swa]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..." LOL

 

[Timebuilder]

(Spock, holding Duane Woerth's head): "My list to your list.....our lists are becoming one list...."

 

[dogg]

How about this answer..... Who cares. Southwest has the requirement that you PF737T before you get a class date and they will always require that you PF737T and it has nothing to do with saving them money.
And the market forces that require that you PF1900T or PFemb-120T are gone at the moment but just as the sun will always rise in the east, so will those market forces return(sooner than later) and there will be just as many pilots in line for those programs in the future as there were in the past. It just comes down to your perspective. Some will take the road to the left(and claim it as the moral high ground) and some will take the road to the right(and they too will claim to hold the moral high ground) and who will be right and who will be wrong. Simply put it will be the perception of each participant............

 

[rodeopilot]

Oh God, I just realized that for my charter job, they wouldnt hire me without my ATP......OOPS I PFT'd.

Its funny, Southwest wouldnt hire me without a type, 2500 total, 1000 pic(turbine) and some kind of personality to pass the interview. Those sound like job qualifications to me. Southwest never asked me for money when I was hired there, as a matter of fact, I was paid from the first day. Southwest was not affiliated with the check-airman who evaluated my type ride, nor were they in bed with the people who owned the simulator training program. Southwest is looking for people with the above mentioned qualifications to come and work with a winning team. Period. .

 

[publisher]

How

How do we get 67 replies on something as simple as this. Is it just because PFT in the header generates a ton of stuff.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: How

How do we get 67 replies on something as simple as this. Is it just because PFT in the header generates a ton of stuff.

In a word yes.

Non PFTers feel they are better, even though they probably just couldn't afford it (like my poor broke a$$ back in 1992). Or, they were still doing left turns around the patch as a CFI when PFT stopped in 1999 (laughable as it is, these noobs still think they are the moral majority).

PFTers have a complex and therefore feel the need to defend their actions and therefore respond to jabs rather than be happy with their decision and resultant seniority, smile and go on about their business.


Anywhere you go, there you are. How you got there is your business. If others don't like it, tell them to get bent. If it really means that much to you, head out to the parking lot and straighten things out 5th grade style.

Personally, I find PFT abhorrant. But I blame the companies, not the pilots. They were just doing what they had to do to get ahead. If I had the money and some good career advice I'd be alot further ahead than I am now. But that's okay. My life is pretty good.

I've flown with PFT skippers, and I've flown with non-PFT skippers. You know what? They both put their pants on one-leg at a time, just like me, and they are all good guys that are fun to go have a steak with on the over night. The PFT guys just have more seniority.

IMHO, anyone who says at this moment, they would not trade 6K for 2 or 3 years of seniority, is either a liar, or stupid.

Capt. Kirk: "Godd@mnit Spock, I am the Captain...and I say WE KICK THAT HORSE!!!!" ROFLMAO

 

[bobbysamd]

The horse is dead, long live the horse

Non PFTers feel they are better, even though they probably just couldn't afford it (like my poor broke a$$ back in 1992). Or, they were still doing left turns around the patch as a CFI when PFT stopped in 1999 (laughable as it is, these noobs still think they are the moral majority) . . . . But I blame the companies, not the pilots. They were just doing what they had to do to get ahead. If I had the money and some good career advice I'd be alot further ahead than I am now.

For me, it wasn't a matter of thinking that I'm better than the next guy/gal. I found it abhorrent, to say the least, that I should have to pay for a job, any job. I never heard of such a thing, in any business. Aside from the fact that I resented how P-F-T'ers, by virtue of their (or Mom and Dad's or their banker's) wallets could butt in line ahead of others who struggled to build their quals.

Absolutely, blame the companies. But, read these comments from Furloughed Again from the interview board, found at this thread, for a sense of P-F-T history:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by FurloughedAgain
In the early to mid-90s there were no pilot jobs. Airlines like Allegheny, Piedmont, and American Eagle "required" a minimum of 2500-3000 hours total-time and over 1000 hours multi-engine.

So few jobs were available that Comair and Flightsafety started their controversial "pay-for-training" program and even after the privilege of paying $10,000 to play, they still had minimum requirements of 1500 hours total-time and 500 hours multi-engine . . . . Supply and demand just raised the stakes . . . .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So where do these circumstances leave people? We all have choices and have decisions to make. There are short-term and long-term implications to these decisions, which we make often on the basis of rumor, speculation, and inaccurate information and opinions. I happen to despise P-F-T. I feel that it is bad for pilots to be taken advantage of. But, as always, that's only my .02 opinion.

 

[MetroSheriff]

All Hail Caeser, and this dead horse!!!

So where do these circumstances leave people? We all have choices and have decisions to make. There are short-term and long-term implications to these decisions, which we make often on the basis of rumor, speculation, and inaccurate information and opinions. I happen to despise P-F-T. I feel that it is bad for pilots to be taken advantage of. But, as always, that's only my .02 opinion.

Bobby,

I, too, abhor PFT. I think it sux. If things were different and PFT hadn't existed, I would have beat out a lot of guys who wallets were bigger than their logbook. I had the time but not the money. It used to pi$$ me off. So much I quit aviation and went and made money for 6 years. Now I am back flying again, way behind in seniority but with money in the bank. I fly with Captains 10 years my junior who are there because of PFT. Being angry and resentful is not how like to spend my time. Not to mention that they are good people that I enjoy flying with (well most of them, anyway). They are just folks that were financially luckier than me. That's the breaks.

Reality is what it is. The poor have been getting hacked on by the rich since the beginning of time. Aviation is no different. It is nice to think that folks would always do the right thing. But they won't. They will do what is right for them. Much as I hate it, I can't say that I balme them. Idealism is nice, but it doesn't pay the mortgage.

As Wyatt Earp said, "I already got the guilty conscience, I may as well have the money, too."

I read your posts with enthusiam, and respect your thoughts and views. However, to think that folks are going to be altruistic in their quest for career success or fulfillment, is to ignore some of the most basic tenets of human nature, and naive at best.

Being angry and holding a grudge won't make it any better. Given the market, I wouldn't be surprised to see PFT rear its' ugly head again. It would be nice to think that this time folks would tell those companies to shove it. But, human nature being what it is, I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

Nothing personal, JMHO.

Cordially,

 

[bobbysamd]

Hey, Metro

However, to think that folks are going to be altruistic in their quest for career success or fulfillment, is to ignore some of the most basic tenets of human nature, and naive at best . . . . I wouldn't be surprised to see PFT rear its' ugly head again. It would be nice to think that this time folks would tell those companies to shove it. But, human nature being what it is, I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

(emphasis added)

I couldn't have said it better. There are always people who feel they're owed.

Thanks for your positive comments.

 

[publisher]

poimnt

Bobby,

The trouble is that most people here have no sense of appreciation of how thing operate in other businesses.

For the most part, companies want people with experience that they do not have to train. Ready to go so to speak.

If they cannot get them like that, then maybe they bear the cost of training them.

Doctors pay for training. I don't care how you think about it, they pay for training. First in school and then interning. They may not pay to intern but for what they get paid and what is required, they are paying.

There needs to be more perspective as airlines are one of the few union situations where you can make six figures. As the former employees found out when their carrier went under, there were few jobs they could get that paid what their airline job did.l

 

[enigma]

Bobby,

Once again the Publisher chimes in with an opinion about PFT/J that is as much SPIN as it is reality.

Here's a little reality. THE FAA REQUIRES THAT A NEWHIRE BE GIVEN A SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF TRAINING. PERIOD.

The publisher says this, "For the most part, companies want people with experience that they do not have to train. Ready to go so to speak. If they cannot get them like that, then maybe they bear the cost of training them. ".
I say again, airlines MUST TRAIN, the regulations do not allow hiring pilots who don't get training. The only relief that an airline can get by hiring "trained" pilots is that under certain situations, the airline can reduce the amount of OE given to a pilot.

I agree with the Publishers business logic, but I disagree with his attempt to apply it to an industry that operates under governmental oversights that are superior to standard business common sense.


To continually equate airline PFT/J with other careers is at best disengenous. It's a false analogy intended to perpetuate a practice that empowers management by providing a continual oversupply of pilots.

YES, physicians pay for training, but once they have there credentials in hand, they are qualified. In airline PFT/J, a Brasilia Captain could get furloughed from airline A yet still have to pay airline B for indoc and initial SIC training. Under airline PFT/J, it doesn't matter that the pilot was current and qualified. THIS IS NOT ABOUT QUALIFICATIONS. It's about pilots who are willing to buy a job in order to circumvent the market place.

I'm done with that rant.

In case anyone hasn't read any of my previous anti-PFT/J rants,, I am not a person who feels that a PFT/J'r took a job that should have been mine. I was working at a job during the ninetys that most PFT/J'rs would have paid double to get and the reason that I am not working at a major is that I wasn't smart enough to get a 4 year degree until I was almost 40)

BTW,If the horse was dead, there wouldn't be so many intelligent people ready to give it another kick.

regards,
8N

 

[mar]

A brilliant post

You know what 8N (may I call you 8N?), I think you and I could actually be friends.

PFT may, in fact, be the only topic we agree on.

Alas, there is one point I take issue with. You wrote: "...the reason that I am not working at a major is that I wasn't smart enough to get a 4 year degree until I was almost 40)."

I'm not very smart either but I actually had finished a four year degree in four and a half years when I was 22 (12 years ago)--and I don't work at any stinkin' major.

As a matter of fact, my job more closely resembles trash collector.

My company literally hauls the garbage out of the Alpine oil field on the North Slope.

For this I spent four years in college?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Physicians

Doctors pay for training. I don't care how you think about it, they pay for training. First in school and then interning. They may not pay to intern but for what they get paid and what is required, they are paying.

C'mon, Pub, that isn't accurate, and you know it. Let's try this comparison to pilots.

All pilots pay, in some way, for their initial training. I did. I'd take several flights with my instructor who owned his airplane, and write him a check. I would repeat the process. Eventually, I earned my Private, Commercial, Instrument and CFI-I with him. I did the same thing with my multi instructor, earning my multi and MEI. I had a friend help me with my CFI, but wrote checks for the airplane time. Others (or their parents) wrote the $45K check to, e.g., FSI or Comair. The result was the same at the end; we all had our initial quals as professional pilots. Our quals are recognized everywhere.

Then, we (hopefully) get jobs. We are hired and go to work. Every job requires some kind of training, but we are receiving wages while receiving the training. Except for P-F-T'ers, who coughed up at least part of their training cost as a condition of hire by their specific companies.

If someone wants to be a doctor, he/she goes to college for an undergrad degree. That is paid for by the person or for the person. Then, medical school. That, too, is paid for by the person or for the person. Probably by big loans. The person graduates from medical school with an M.D. degree. The M.D. is recognized anywhere.

Then, more than likely, the new doctor gets a job. Probably an internship with a hospital or medical center. The person is working, but it is a training position. The person is collecting a paycheck while he/she is learning. The new doctor did not remit monies to the hospital or medical center as a condition of hire or to receive training. Maybe he/she is paying through the nose for the hard work he/she contributes, but that's another matter. So, doctors do not P-F-T.

I do agree with you, Pub, to a point, that airlines want experienced people. Aside from insurance, that's why they establish minimum quals. But, as Enigma, above, noted, the experienced pilots airlines hire still must receive company training, just as everyone who starts any kind of new job in any industry receives. The distinction is the government mandates that new-hire pilots receive the training. A further distinction between airlines and other industries is companies outside of P-F-T aviation companies provide that training at their expense. Once again, I've never heard of any industry except for P-F-T (or pay-for-job) aviation companies that demands that new-hires pay for their training.

Is the horse dead, yet?

 

[46Driver]

Supply and Demand. What one person sees as "Beneath their Principles", another sees as "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome." What one person sees as "circumventing the market" another sees as "leveling the playing field" (as a helo bubba, I know all too well about "qualifications") Sounds like you want Utopia - the American free market is the last place you are going to find it.
There is a story about the plains of Africa: an antelope has to run to avoid being eaten, a lion has to run to eat. The moral of the story is that when the sun comes up, you better be running.... Same applies to the business world; if you are not going to hustle for a job, someone hungrier is going to take it. People just don't see things the same way - and this thread is evidence of it. And no, I did not PFT but I see nothing to get emotional about - its Supply and Demand.

 

[Timebuilder]

If we could live our lives with the practical detachment of a "Vulcan", we would simply see the act of purchasing employment to be "illogical".

Since we aren't wired that way, many of us bristle at the idea that pilots are willing to demonstrate to a world of aviation management that they will do anything, including prostituting themselves and lowering our profession, in order to hit the ground running and avoid being eaten. This helps to reinforce the idea that only the upper echelon of pilots can expect to earn a good living.

Species other than Antelope have learned to stand together and avoid running. This intimidates the lion, and he turns to look for easier prey.

The anit-PFT group attempts to reason with those who are considering that route, and dissuade them from what is seen as bad for themselves and our industry. Most are not, as previously suggested, unable to afford the money for PFT, and are not currently flying the pattern in a 172. Those who explained the reasons I should avoid PFT had the money, just like I did. Just like I do, they make their living flying people and things all over the place.

I'm not angry that some people moved ahead more quickly because they PFT'd. But if I was their peer, I would be.

 

[publisher]

paying

OK Bobby, I will give you that they are not paying. For what they are making though, they mise well be. Where else do you get to work 36 hour shifts with some free overtime on top of that.

As to your point about the training when you switch, that is a carry over from the past and sort of rediculous. flight attendant training is a perfect example. WHy one way of doing things is not adopted across the industry is beyond me.

There are a lot of things in this industry that do not make sense.