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42.7% of JetBlue Pilots Have Apps Out

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RiddleEagle18 said:
Maybe but the point he is making is when you come to a "destination airline" everything should be better. The fact that one of a pilots most important forms of compensation is so lacking says a lot about the company and what future hires will be dealing with. Begging for average everyday.

www.bluetruthpilots.com
Click to expand...

Maybe your assumption that JB is a "destination airline" is in error. JB is a small airline with slow growth, few retirements and limited basing options, it is what it is and some percentage of the pilots will want more than that and move on. I am sorry you feel you were promised something and it didn't happen but that's way this industry works, anybody who has been around the block in aviation knows that.

You can either sit at JB, be unhappy, work to change things and hope it will become what you think it should be (maybe it will happen) or start over at another carrier that has the things you think you deserve. Sometimes a big fish in a little pond is unwilling to become a smaller fish in a bigger pond with more room to grow. What kind of fish are you :)
 
StarChecker said:
Just a minor correction, because it's not exactly right....


Our vacation system is a horror show not because of the way we bid, but because JetBlue does not allot enough vacation weeks based on pilot seniority. Every JetBlue pilot, regardless of seniority, is allotted 2 weeks vacation. That's why the top 5% get all the desirable vacation slots. Changing the way we bid vacations will do nothing to correct the problem.

JetBlue saves 30-60 million every year doing this (see PVC email in June). They will never change it unless we negotiate for better.
Click to expand...

So the top guy can only bid 2 weeks?
Are you sure about that?
If you save up your pto you can bid as much vacation as you want.
So your post is a kind of a lie. ( kind of)
Yes they give 2 weeks per pilot overall to come up with how many slots there are (which should change) but if there were more slots and you keep the current system how far down the list do you think summer vacation would go?
The top guys would still get everything just more now.
Unless you put a limit on how many slots you can bid the top guys will always get all the good stuff.
I think there should be more vacation slots.
We need to add more vacation blocks and remove vacation from pto time...ie
real vacation time and bid in rounds 2 at a time from top to bottom.
That's what I would do....but I am just a 190 guy and an FO at that.
 
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fam62c said:
Maybe your assumption that JB is a "destination airline" is in error. JB is a small airline with slow growth, few retirements and limited basing options, it is what it is and some percentage of the pilots will want more than that and move on. I am sorry you feel you were promised something and it didn't happen but that's way this industry works, anybody who has been around the block in aviation knows that.

You can either sit at JB, be unhappy, work to change things and hope it will become what you think it should be (maybe it will happen) or start over at another carrier that has the things you think you deserve. Sometimes a big fish in a little pond is unwilling to become a smaller fish in a bigger pond with more room to grow. What kind of fish are you :)
Click to expand...

Yup

I will say our growth LATELY has not been slow.
It's all fluid how soon we forget the majors had crap contracts.(yes they were BK)
Things have changed and its up to the ELT to get with it.
 
pilotpayne said:
So the top guy can only bid 2 weeks?
Are you sure about that?
I think there should be more vacation slots.
We need to add more vacation blocks and remove vacation from pto time...ie
real vacation time and bid in rounds 2 at a time from top to bottom.
That's what I would do....but I am just a 190 guy and an FO at that.
Click to expand...

You didn't read the post correctly. Every pilot is ALLOTTED 2 weeks. Not only able to bid two weeks. Guys allotted two weeks can and do bid 6 some as many as 8 weeks of vacation.
 
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BeachBummer said:
You didn't read the post correctly. Every pilot is ALLOTTED 2 weeks. Not only able to bid two weeks. Guys allotted two weeks can and do bid 6 some as many as 8 weeks of vacation.
Click to expand...

I did see changes above.
I am all for more vacation slots.
But all this is moot anyway right.
We don't have a CBA so we get what we get.
As far as attrition, nothing will wake the ELT up like cx flights due to lack of crews. It shouldn't be that way but they are still living about 3 years in the past.
The cycle favors pilots now.
 
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fam62c said:
Maybe your assumption that JB is a "destination airline" is in error. JB is a small airline with slow growth, few retirements and limited basing options, it is what it is and some percentage of the pilots will want more than that and move on. I am sorry you feel you were promised something and it didn't happen but that's way this industry works, anybody who has been around the block in aviation knows that.

You can either sit at JB, be unhappy, work to change things and hope it will become what you think it should be (maybe it will happen) or start over at another carrier that has the things you think you deserve. Sometimes a big fish in a little pond is unwilling to become a smaller fish in a bigger pond with more room to grow. What kind of fish are you :)
Click to expand...


Your kidding right? This was the company's line and promise, not something I made up.

My comments were in regards to jetblue being better than republic. I stand by what I said. I should have better retirement, QOL, and health benefits. The fact that one of our biggest forms of compensation is below that of almost every regional is pathetic.

But by your post I guess I should just be happy I saw my benefits cut to the point where we now have put off having another child.

My apps out everywhere just like the large majority of FOs and even some captains. In the meantime I will continue to do my part to make this place better.

Www.bluetruthpilots.com
 
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RiddleEagle18 said:
Just in regards to the destination airline.

Your kidding right? This was the company's line and promise, not something I made up.
Click to expand...

How long ago did you start?
The healthcare went downhill but what else changed so much?
I am not being an a-- just asking what changed since you signed on?

All for a CBA here.
 
pilotpayne said:
How long ago did you start?
The healthcare went downhill but what else changed so much?
I am not being an a-- just asking what changed since you signed on?

All for a CBA here.
Click to expand...

I edited my post but I will also answer your question..

I have been here over 2 years.

The health care change alone was enough. The promise of industry average compensation has changed to industry competitive. By the company's own processes that they setup and agreed to, the A321 should fall into a different pay category(granted industry wide they are usually paid the same). The attempted changing of our agreed upon peer set. Two way domestic code share.
I think this is where most of the frustration lies with most pilots. You set the bar here, you made these provision so stick with them. Easy example is the annual pay review process and A321 issue. It should take all of about 5 mins to calculate. The process is in place give me a calculator.

It's not just what happened since I have been here though. Go to the website and read all of promises broken. All the different committees established and abandon.

It goes far beyond that though. Integration in the event of a merger? Domestic code share and scope. No guarantees in a CBA I get that but I would absolutely rather take my chances with it all written in black in a white in a nationally recognized contract.

We are a publicly traded company and quite honestly our performance lately has been terrible compared to the rest of the industry. What if Dave and friends are asked to "spend more time with their families."We are one CEO change away from having very hostile management. I would rather have a contract in place to deal with the next guy and the guy after that.

16 hour duty limits. 3 leg red eyes. Established grievance rules. Established discipline procedures, aeromedical coverages, and professional aeronautical lawyers available to me at any time.


I want Jetblue to succeed. If I stay here I will retire extremely senior(top 10). I will come to work and do all I can to make this place succeed but I will not do it at the expense of my family. Right now the numbers tell me I have to leave so my apps are out. In the meantime I will do everything I can to improve the compensation and benefits for myself and the rest of the jetblue pilots.
 
RiddleEagle18 said:
I edited my post but I will also answer your question..

I have been here over 2 years.

The health care change alone was enough. The promise of industry average compensation has changed to industry competitive. By the company's own processes that they setup and agreed to, the A321 should fall into a different pay category(granted industry wide they are usually paid the same). The attempted changing of our agreed upon peer set. Two way domestic code share.
I think this is where most of the frustration lies with most pilots. You set the bar here, you made these provision so stick with them. Easy example is the annual pay review process and A321 issue. It should take all of about 5 mins to calculate. The process is in place give me a calculator.

It's not just what happened since I have been here though. Go to the website and read all of promises broken. All the different committees established and abandon.

It goes far beyond that though. Integration in the event of a merger? Domestic code share and scope. No guarantees in a CBA I get that but I would absolutely rather take my chances with it all written in black in a white in a nationally recognized contract.

We are a publicly traded company and quite honestly our performance lately has been terrible compared to the rest of the industry. What if Dave and friends are asked to "spend more time with their families."We are one CEO change away from having very hostile management. I would rather have a contract in place to deal with the next guy and the guy after that.

16 hour duty limits. 3 leg red eyes. Established grievance rules. Established discipline procedures, aeromedical coverages, and professional aeronautical lawyers available to me at any time.


I want Jetblue to succeed. If I stay here I will retire extremely senior(top 10). I will come to work and do all I can to make this place succeed but I will not do it at the expense of my family. Right now the numbers tell me I have to leave so my apps are out. In the meantime I will do everything I can to improve the compensation and benefits for myself and the rest of the jetblue pilots.
Click to expand...


Good post. Thank you for well thought out post.
If all that changed for the better would you still stay?
I wonder if all these things did change how many young guys would still stick it out?
 
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pilotpayne said:
I did see changes above.
I am all for more vacation slots.
But all this is moot anyway right.
We don't have a CBA so we get what we get.
As far as attrition, nothing will wake the ELT up like cx flights due to lack of crews. It shouldn't be that way but they are still living about 3 years in the past.
The cycle favors pilots now.
Click to expand...

What does pro CBA mean? Pro inhouse but anti ALPA. I'm pro union, ALPA first but ill vote yes for ANY union. I'll just write in ALPA.
 
B6Busdriver said:
Excellent. Please send a card in if you haven't already done so and ask 5 of your friends to do the same. As MA would say, this time "we are going to win and win big."
Click to expand...

I already did one to Alpa and one to fll
I am no blue juice guy but I don't think Jetblue is the living hell
people want to make it out as.
And for the love of god if there is a vote somone get Barney off bluepilots.
 
pilotpayne said:
The seniority system can suck.
Click to expand...
Yes Paraphrasing Winston Churchill, seniority is the worse system used in managing an airline, except all others. And if you get a union the senior guys will vote for what they want, you only need 51% to think they are senior. The history of seniors protecting themselves is immpressive.
 
pilotyip said:
Yes Paraphrasing Winston Churchill, seniority is the worse system used in managing an airline, except all others. And if you get a union the senior guys will vote for what they want, you only need 51% to think they are senior. The history of seniors protecting themselves is immpressive.
Click to expand...

Kind of how airlines work. You start as a frosh, move up, become senior, retire. Sort of like every other industry.
 
pilotyip said:
If you are a Captain JB, you have better job than 90% of the pilot flying in the US. Six figure income, if senior a good schedule.
Click to expand...

Been at B6 for 9 years. Captain. I have friends at our peer set carriers who are First Officers with less longevity and seniority than me. Their overall compensation, benefits, retirement, QOL, etc far exceeds what I have here. Their Captains' overall compensation, etc, makes ours look absolutely pittiful and is downright insulting. Apples to apples comparison. Just sayin.

Send in a card. Tell a friend to send in a card.

"In business, you don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate."
 
pilotpayne said:
Good post. Thank you for well thought out post.
If all that changed for the better would you still stay?
I wonder if all these things did change how many young guys would still stick it out?
Click to expand...

The only way the majority of my concerns are addressed is with a CBA.

I would probably stay if we were able to get a decent CBA. I live in base and I generally enjoy my time actually spent at work doing my job.

So yes I think young guys would stay if the numbers turned in our favor or at least made it close.
 
Ski-N-Fly said:
Been at B6 for 9 years. Captain. I have friends at our peer set carriers who are First Officers with less longevity and seniority than me. Their overall compensation, benefits, retirement, QOL, etc far exceeds what I have here. Their Captains' overall compensation, etc, makes ours look absolutely pittiful and is downright insulting. Apples to apples comparison. Just sayin.
Click to expand...
That is the 10% I was talking about, you should go for it. Lots of JUS guys would love to have your job.
 
RiddleEagle18 said:
The only way the majority of my concerns are addressed is with a CBA.

I would probably stay if we were able to get a decent CBA. I live in base and I generally enjoy my time actually spent at work doing my job.

So yes I think young guys would stay if the numbers turned in our favor or at least made it close.
Click to expand...

I guess we will see what they come out with.
The funny thing is the ELT has a chance to keep the Union away IF (doubt it)
they fix stuff. But if they blow it (most likely)
The union will be here quick.
 
pilotyip said:
That is the 10% I was talking about, you should go for it. Lots of JUS guys would love to have your job.
Click to expand...

The secret to happiness is accepting the things that you have in life. JetBlue is NOT a bad job. On the contrary, it is a great job. Things can always improve, and I think they will. But guys just keep wanting to look over one fence and see how bad they've got it, instead of looking over all the fences around them and seeing that they actually have a pretty great deal. Is it the best? No, but it's not bad at all.

Oh well. I just show up and do my job, and enjoy life. I just finished a 15 day off stretch that I was able to bid for in my first year at the company. In July/August. Using no PTO. And crediting over 85 hrs in July.

Yeah, it's horrible here.
 
ASA_Aviator said:
The secret to happiness is accepting the things that you have in life. JetBlue is NOT a bad job. On the contrary, it is a great job. Things can always improve, and I think they will. But guys just keep wanting to look over one fence and see how bad they've got it, instead of looking over all the fences around them and seeing that they actually have a pretty great deal. Is it the best? No, but it's not bad at all.

Oh well. I just show up and do my job, and enjoy life. I just finished a 15 day off stretch that I was able to bid for in my first year at the company. In July/August. Using no PTO. And crediting over 85 hrs in July.

Yeah, it's horrible here.
Click to expand...
Hey! stop that this is FI, we do not deal in reality here. You can only be accepted here by moaning about one of the best jobs in the country. All my buddies from JUS think they have died and gone to haven.
 
Smarta$$ said:
That's exactly how YOU obtained YOUR upgrade. F-ing hypocrite.
Click to expand...

This isnt the regionals. Im not concerned about my upgrade time especially when there are FOs at major airlines making more than our 190 CA(southwest).

Im concerned about securing my career long term. Im concerned about having a recognized contract with scope provision, work rules, written retirement plans, and succession language that this management and the next are required to abide by. If you plan on making jetblue a career look past upgrade times and beyond this management because your longevity will exceed theirs and the next 3 combined.
 
Also...

Our business model determines upgrades. If our entire model is predicated solely on building the company on low employee wages then it will fail eventually.

We have an enormous cost advantage related to the rest of the industry. They can afford to give us peer set average compensation, that should include not only pay, but medical, retirement, vacation and sick time, and work rules.
 
Just curious as to who conducted the survey. Could it have been that 42.7% of the people who took the survey have apps out. Thank you.
 
The PVC conducted the survey, which had a 73% participation rate (1798 pilots). Yes, 42.7% (767 pilots) of the people that took the survey intend to submits apps to another carrier, while 23.1% (416 pilots) haven't made a decision one way or the other.
 
So lets say a quarter of the undecided submit(100) and half of the ones that say they already have were truthful and submit(370).

So 470 apps out and lets say a third of those leave. 140 guys and that doesnt include the guys currently taking recall at delta and AA. (Atleast 42 delta guys at jetblue that I know of)

Start throwing in the fact that new hires will be harder to come by and it could get interesting fast.
 

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