42.7% of JetBlue Pilots Have Apps Out

[ASA_Aviator]

I took the survey, and it was very clear that whoever wrote the questions had no idea how to write a neutral survey.

The problem is that when your survey isn't neutral, the results literally mean nothing. The data have no value whatsoever. I'm all for a survey, but it needs to be done right, scientifically, with properly worded questions, and focus groups, etc.

The survey we got is the result of a bunch of pilots who know a lot about flying, and nothing about statistics/data collection getting together.

http://education.illinois.edu/SPED/TRI/questionnaire.htm

 

[johnsonrod]

I took the survey, and it was very clear that whoever wrote the questions had no idea how to write a neutral survey.

The problem is that when your survey isn't neutral, the results literally mean nothing. The data have no value whatsoever. I'm all for a survey, but it needs to be done right, scientifically, with properly worded questions, and focus groups, etc.

The survey we got is the result of a bunch of pilots who know a lot about flying, and nothing about statistics/data collection getting together.

http://education.illinois.edu/SPED/TRI/questionnaire.htm

Dude - if your colleagues apply to UAL, AA or DAL and get offers they will be gone... That's the truth. If they take the time to apply that implies they are not happy with their current situation and they don't believe things will get better in the near term. We all have friends at JB and we know how unhappy many of them are - that's the truth. Your survey-writing argument does not change the fact that A LOT of people are unhappy at JB. That means great upward mobility for you and the others who remain - so, it is a win-win for many people....

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Dude - if your colleagues apply to UAL, AA or DAL and get offers they will be gone... That's the truth. If they take the time to apply that implies they are not happy with their current situation and they don't believe things will get better in the near term. We all have friends at JB and we know how unhappy many of them are - that's the truth. Your survey-writing argument does not change the fact that A LOT of people are unhappy at JB. That means great upward mobility for you and the others who remain - so, it is a win-win for many people....

That's all fine, and many people do have applications out for sure. But if people want to quote the survey, they need to write and design a proper survey so they can rely on the data. Some of the questions were probably fine, but many of them were not worded in a neutral manner. There's a reason that management complained about the questions.

Again, I'm all for a survey, but they have to be designed correctly to mean anything.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Oh, and I agree it's a win-win situation. The people who are bitter leave, and those of us who are happy move up.

 

[clickclickboom]

If someone leaves why are they bitter ? So you are saying that if 200+ pilots plus delta, aa, ual recalls leave here they were all bitter?

Seems like a pretty poor argument

 

[clickclickboom]

And why is some old crusty freight dog that works for some scumbag operator with 50 pilots posting on every single jb thread?

We aint usa jet.

This job is great until you bend some metal, look at someone the wrong way, get your name on a list, or god help you or your family suffer from a medical event.

Insolvency will shortly follow

 

[ASA_Aviator]

If someone leaves why are they bitter ? So you are saying that if 200+ pilots plus delta, aa, ual recalls leave here they were all bitter?

Seems like a pretty poor argument

I didn't say that. I said the bitter guys may leave. There are probably non bitter guys who will leave too.

Hell, I'm not bitter at all and I keep my apps up to date.

 

[Splert]

I took the survey, and it was very clear that whoever wrote the questions had no idea how to write a neutral survey.

The problem is that when your survey isn't neutral, the results literally mean nothing. The data have no value whatsoever. I'm all for a survey, but it needs to be done right, scientifically, with properly worded questions, and focus groups, etc.

The survey we got is the result of a bunch of pilots who know a lot about flying, and nothing about statistics/data collection getting together.

http://education.illinois.edu/SPED/TRI/questionnaire.htm

The PVC asked for access to Speak Up Data.

Company refused.

The company gave the data to MWW but not the group they are supposed to 'collaborate' with. They gave the data to a group working against the pilot group and not a group that works for the pilot group!!!

But now we have a new cubical boy who is critical of the data collection as IF there is a perfect survey out there some where is cubical land in which the company will say: "Oh you got us, we are out of false arguments (your data is "bad") so let fix this stuff now."

The company would find fault in Mother Teresa motives and methods and so would ASA-whatever.

I bet a dollar ASA_whatever cubical smells like Pizza or Fish. Ignore the management plant or wanna be.

 

[Smarta$$]

This isnt the regionals. Im not concerned about my upgrade time especially when there are FOs at major airlines making more than our 190 CA(southwest).

Im concerned about securing my career long term. Im concerned about having a recognized contract with scope provision, work rules, written retirement plansand nd succession language that this management and the next are required to abide by. If you plan on making jetblue a career look past upgrade times and beyond this management because your longevity will exceed theirs and the next 3 combined.

Your arguments and opinions are perfectly fine here. But I won't be told by some captain here that has benefited greatly from fast growth and high attrition (that's how he got HIS captain seat), which were both greatly accelerated by lower relative pilot wages that I dont need to worry about MY upgrade time. higher pilot compensation and benefits will slow both attrition and growth. But that isn't HIS problem.

 

[pilotpayne]

So lets say a quarter of the undecided submit(100) and half of the ones that say they already have were truthful and submit(370).

So 470 apps out and lets say a third of those leave. 140 guys and that doesnt include the guys currently taking recall at delta and AA. (Atleast 42 delta guys at jetblue that I know of)

Start throwing in the fact that new hires will be harder to come by and it could get interesting fast.

Yup.
I have no doubt the ELT knows this.
What they do is another story.

 

[Smarta$$]

Just a minor correction, because it's not exactly right....


Our vacation system is a horror show not because of the way we bid, but because JetBlue does not allot enough vacation weeks based on pilot seniority. Every JetBlue pilot, regardless of seniority, is allotted 2 weeks vacation. That's why the top 5% get all the desirable vacation slots. Changing the way we bid vacations will do nothing to correct the problem.

JetBlue saves 30-60 million every year doing this (see PVC email in June). They will never change it unless we negotiate for better.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

As you say, the premium vacation weeks (Christmas, Thanksgiving and summer weeks ) are all gone in the first 5% of most senior bidders. If you use a CBA and force the company to double the allocation without also changing the way we bid, then the premium weeks will be ALL GONE IN THE FIRST 10%. So if you are not in the top 10%, I hope you like vacation in September or the end of January! Changing the way we bid to rounds of 2 weeks each pass, will have roughly the same effect on pushing those premium weeks down the seniority ladder.

However, we have an airline that has very significant variance in block hours from peak to trough. If you force the company to offer more premium weeks during our busiest travel weeks, the company will have to hire pilots to staff the airline while you are on vacation. That has consequences for the company with respect to financing growth, but most importantly, it has consequenses for the pilots directly. If you force them to hire 100 more pilots so you can take a vacation, we all better be ready for 70 hour lines for 8 months out of the year!!!!

You will be the first one (and the rest of you) to scream bloody murder when you can't get a line above 70 hours, 8 months out of the year.... our bid divisors are already low for September, and they would be a whole lot lower if we had 100 more pilots.

Its funny how you sight our peers contracts all the time, but won't argue for the vacation bidding system that all our peers have with rounds of bidding!

You either don't understand all the moving pieces, or you are just senior enough that you want more vacation slots and still want the ability to bid for as many premium weeks as you want. As far as 70 hour lines, you are probably a bot guy or are in an open time cartel, so that won't hurt you either.....

 

[pilotpayne]

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

As you say, the premium vacation weeks (Christmas, Thanksgiving and summer weeks ) are all gone in the first 5% of most senior bidders. If you use a CBA and force the company to double the allocation without also changing the way we bid, then the premium weeks will be ALL GONE IN THE FIRST 10%. So if you are not in the top 10%, I hope you like vacation in September or the end of January! Changing the way we bid to rounds of 2 weeks each pass, will have roughly the same effect on pushing those premium weeks down the seniority ladder.

However, we have an airline that has very significant variance in block hours from peak to trough. If you force the company to offer more premium weeks during our busiest travel weeks, the company will have to hire pilots to staff the airline while you are on vacation. That has consequences for the company with respect to financing growth, but most importantly, it has consequenses for the pilots directly. If you force them to hire 100 more pilots so you can take a vacation, we all better be ready for 70 hour lines for 8 months out of the year!!!!

You will be the first one (and the rest of you) to scream bloody murder when you can't get a line above 70 hours, 8 months out of the year.... our bid divisors are already low for September, and they would be a whole lot lower if we had 100 more pilots.

Its funny how you sight our peers contracts all the time, but won't argue for the vacation bidding system that all our peers have with rounds of bidding!

You either don't understand all the moving pieces, or you are just senior enough that you want more vacation slots and still want the ability to bid for as many premium weeks as you want. As far as 70 hour lines, you are probably a bot guy or are in an open time cartel, so that won't hurt you either.....

Great post.
I do like how they want more blocks but don't dare
touch how we bid for them.

 

[Smarta$$]

Great post.
I do like how they want more blocks but don't dare
touch how we bid for them.

Yep, they either can't do math or have an agenda...

And its interesting that if we increase peak allocation of premium weeks, we ALL suffer with low line values for 2/3 of the year, but only seniority numbers between 5-10% really get the benefits.........

 

[Smarta$$]

And we get to suffer the slower growth rate. But hey, seniority numbers 5-10% will get better vacations.......

 

[JJthejetplane]

I just read on another forum that one of our Captains just got offered (today) a class date at United as a new hire. Management really thinks we are bluffing! I think they are in for a rude awakening!

 

[kommutrdog]

Oh, and I agree it's a win-win situation. The people who are bitter leave, and those of us who are happy move up.

People who leave can do basic arithmetic. Leaving MILLIONS on the table at retirement isn't smart.

People who drink the blue koolaid are satisfied with substandard retirement, satisfied that they NEVER get to take summer vacations with their kids unless they are in the top 10% and are satisfied with THE WORST HEALTHCARE IN THE INDUSTRY.

It's not a bad job here at bluejet, but I didn't become an airline pilot to have healthcare benefits more akin to Walmart.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

People who leave can do basic arithmetic. Leaving MILLIONS on the table at retirement isn't smart.

People who drink the blue koolaid are satisfied with substandard retirement, satisfied that they NEVER get to take summer vacations with their kids unless they are in the top 10% and are satisfied with THE WORST HEALTHCARE IN THE INDUSTRY.

It's not a bad job here at bluejet, but I didn't become an airline pilot to have healthcare benefits more akin to Walmart.

1. Leaving to Delta is going to be competitive. Not all of us will get the chance to go there. Personally, I'm not interested in FedEx, UPS, United or US Airways/AA, so JetBlue is my ride unless/until I get on with Delta. I'm not holding my breath. With all of the flows they have, it will be hard to get in off the "street" for quite a while. If you're not in on the start of the wave, it may not be worth going to just be perma-junior for the next 30 years.

2. Money isn't everything. For me it's about the quality of life, and the culture of the pilot group. I want to enjoy being at work. I also want to live past 67, so FedEx is out. Those guys die early. Night flying and international work wears on you.

3. You can bid for, and get, time off during the summers using the PBS software and Flica. Is it "vacation?" No, but it is 15 days off in a row, over the change in months. I get that it isn't "guaranteed," and that you can't plan long-term. We need to overhaul the vacation system, no question. But it isn't really true to say that you can't get time off during the summer.

4. I agree the healthcare should be better (in a perfect world), but I'm not sure what we will be able to do about that given the national climate with respect to healthcare. I think Delta/United/AA will get dragged down to match as soon as their next negotiation comes around. It's a crap sandwich for the whole nation. Want that to be fixed? Vote for someone who will get a single-payer system in place, and/or reform the insurance industry as a whole. That whole industry is screwed up.

 

[Pilotbob3]

1. Leaving to Delta is going to be competitive. Not all of us will get the chance to go there. Personally, I'm not interested in FedEx, UPS, United or US Airways/AA, so JetBlue is my ride unless/until I get on with Delta. I'm not holding my breath. With all of the flows they have, it will be hard to get in off the "street" for quite a while. If you're not in on the start of the wave, it may not be worth going to just be perma-junior for the next 30 years.

2. Money isn't everything. For me it's about the quality of life, and the culture of the pilot group. I want to enjoy being at work. I also want to live past 67, so FedEx is out. Those guys die early. Night flying and international work wears on you.

3. You can bid for, and get, time off during the summers using the PBS software and Flica. Is it "vacation?" No, but it is 15 days off in a row, over the change in months. I get that it isn't "guaranteed," and that you can't plan long-term. We need to overhaul the vacation system, no question. But it isn't really true to say that you can't get time off during the summer.

4. I agree the healthcare should be better (in a perfect world), but I'm not sure what we will be able to do about that given the national climate with respect to healthcare. I think Delta/United/AA will get dragged down to match as soon as their next negotiation comes around. It's a crap sandwich for the whole nation. Want that to be fixed? Vote for someone who will get a single-payer system in place, and/or reform the insurance industry as a whole. That whole industry is screwed up.

Well for now, I hope you sent your card in and will vote YES!

 

[GogglesPisano]

I think Delta/United/AA will get dragged down to match as soon as their next negotiation comes around.

Nope. Not going to happen.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Nope. Not going to happen.

Why, because you fixed healthcare in this country? They may get good healthcare, but it will come at the expense of something else.

You guys really buy in to the idea that a CBA fixes everything, don't you? If we vote a union in, $20 says our first contract is worse than our current PEA.