299 line check

[B737Dvr]

you answered your own question!

Thanks for shooting me dead. I have actually signed for many aircraft... both turbine/jet. I have plenty of experience to talk politely about this subject as well. I don't need to hurl insults at people about their experience. I was only asking if someone could clarify LOGGING of PIC. If you read my posts, then you would realize that I know the difference between ACTING as PIC and LOGGING PIC. I've also been ramp checked and the whole gambit. I guess I need to place in my profile that I too have flown all the heavy metal in the world. Because the last time I checked, it doesn't mean you know it all. This is exactly why I haven't been on this site in a while. Everyone loves to jab at everyone else. It's very elementary.

Please explain to me what the difference is between logging of PIC and flying as PIC!!!! I humbly request a detailed explanation here.

 

[B737Dvr]

Upon further investigation....

Let me ask this in more simple terms. Do you need a 299 line check in order to log PIC time on 135 (with pax onboard) legs? In this scenario, the designated PIC has done a 299. So, can the FO (with 293 & 297) fly left seat and log PIC time with pax onboard?

Hmmm, I decided to go back and read your posts, and I am going to very nicely state that you do not know what is required to log PIC time.
In order to fly as a PIC on live part 135 legs with people on board, you need to have your 293, 297 and 299 all valid. your scenario really illuminates that you are trying to split hairs here. In your scenario with a DESIGNATED PIC....STOP THERE.....
There is already a designated PIC on the flight, there can be no other. You continue to ask if the FO can log PIC time from the left seat,.....I SAY AGAIN, There is already a designated PIC onboard, the FO is the FO and cannot be the PIC so THEREFORE CANNOT LOG PIC.

I understand that the regs allow the logging of PIC under certain situations in flight training for a safety pilot, CFI's or an international relief captain....but on regular 2 man flights for a jet that requires 2 pilots, you cannot have more than 1 PIC.

Let me ask you a question.....If the FO logs PIC time in your scenario and there is an incident or accident, does he tell the feds he was the PIC or SIC?

Will his answer be the same as the company's answer?

When the feds examine his logbook, and they ask him why did he choose to log PIC time, what will be his reasoning?

Enlighten me please.

 

[fr8r]

This entire post occurred because I was having a discussion with a friend about this subject. Maybe you should personally look up the difference between LOGGING and ACTING. There is a legal difference and it has nothing to do with interviewing at your precious airline.

 

[fr8r]

737dvr,

I do understand your argument and I agree with you. My question was only about logging time. Can 2 pilots log PIC time? The answer is actually YES. Should you? is another question. That is all I was getting at. I have heard many different reasons/answers, but the truth is that there are a few scenarios where 2 pilots can log PIC. It doesn't mean that you are acting as PIC. The notes section of the logbook will serve well here. It is possible to have 2 guys on board each with the .299 check, but only one can sign for the aircraft. It is a confusing topic, but an important topic... we (pilots) all have to fill boxes. Might as well make sure your doing it right, or flying might be a tough career!

 

[BEfly]

I couldn't agree with Pilotyip more on this subject.

If in the occasion 2 captains are paired together, the more senior is PIC. PIC as in left seat, designated on the trip sheet, on the flight log, and on the Flight plan. No exceptions. Some guys don't like it but it certainly does away with a lot of confusion. I've flown with guys like who log PIC however they can to build their resume. I understand, I do! But this profession should have more honesty in the foundation, and that goes for everything, not just logging time.

FR8R - All the FO's I fly with are typed, and every now and then when we get an empty leg I'll hop in the right seat and let them run the show. That includes fuel planning, flight planning (with their name in the box) and calling all the shots. If its done like that then I don't consider that "bogus PIC". They are building experience by making decisions and feeling a little pressure. EVEN THOUGH I am there as their safety net, the company still sees me as the one in charge, and I anything should happen It's gonna be my ass anyway. Soooo in this case, we both log PIC. That's one of the very few scenarios that I can think of in which both pilots could be logging PIC legitimately.

 

[fr8r]

Jeppesen's FARs Explained by Kent Jackson

"There are 2 ways to log PIC time that are pertinent to this question. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as a PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by 135.109, that person is designated as PIC for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft. The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to this questions is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated. Thus, a multi-engine airplane flown under Part 135 by 2 pilots can have both pilots logging time as PIC when the appropriately rated SIC is manipulating the controls. We stress however, that here we are discussing LOGGING of flight time for the purpose of FAR61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating."

Then they say:

"Your question does not say if the SIC in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or only an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to SERVE as a PIC under part 135. An example of the difference is 135.225(d), which raises IFR landing minimums for PIC's of turbine powered airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not SERVED at least 100 hours as PIC in that type of airplane. SERVED and LOGGED are not the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not SERVED as a PIC until he has completed the training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part 135 PIC."

So if you are only SIC qualified under 135, but typed & current in the airplane, you can LOG PIC.

from actechbooks.com with the book available on it:
"About the authors:
Kent Jackson and Lori Jackson are attorneys with the law firm of Jackson, Wade, and Blanck, LLC. The firm promotes and fosters the aviation industry by getting clients through the conflicting requirements of the FAA, IRS, and other international, federal, and local governing bodies. Jackson, Wade, & Blanck, LLC provides extensive assistance in structuring the acquisition, ownership, and operation of aircraft. Jackson, Wade, & Blanck has represented clients in acquisitions from all major aircraft manufacturers including Augusta, Bell, Boeing, Bombardier, Cessna, Dassault, Eclipse, Fairchild Dornier, Galaxy, Gulfstream, Learjet, Pilatus, Raytheon, and Sikorsky. The firm represents pilots and companies in enforcing actions before the DOT, FAA, IRS, and other agencies."

Again, my initial question was about logging time. I know some airlines don't care about that time, and rightly so, but you should differentiate that in your log notes. then you won't have to explain anything to anyone. Let it be know up front that you are not claiming that you have SERVED as PIC just by LOGGING PIC. That you only logged PIC time for the purposes of a rating/experience requirements. Anyhow, I hope this helps.

 

[727Niteflyer]

doesnt logging pic kind of elude that you were the pic of the aircraft.

Ive never heard of an arguement like this in 135 or 121. If your checked as an SIC you can log PIC ?

Logging PIC doesnt mean your acting as PIC ?

This is weird.

With the exception of 737drvr and Pilotyip, I dont think any of the others on here have a clue of what your talking about.

 

[avbug]

That nearly everyone can be so universally wrong on the topic is truly mind bending. Particularly with respect to a very clear, very simple, very short regulation. There's no room for debate, or even room to question the regulation.

So far as what looks best in an interview room, a clean, legally maintained logbook looks best.

Yes, there is a distinct difference between logging PIC, and acting as PIC. Two entirely different subjects.

Does pre-private solo experience count toward Part 135 pilot experience minimums? Yes, it does.

Do most interviewers in Part 121 and 135 operations look only at time spent ACTING as PIC, when considering pilot in command time? Yes. Does this have any impact on the legal logging of flight time? No.

The regulation is very clear. The original poster asked a simple question:

Does anyone have the definite answer for this? If you are typed, 293 and 297 current, is a 299 required to log PIC time in an aircraft? Basically, can you log PIC if you are not the signing captain? I have read some posts on this, but there are several opinions. I read the regs as that it is legal to log PIC for logging purposes.

You ask if a pilot who has received his initial, instrument proficiency, and PIC checks, can log time as PIC if he hasn't received a line check. The answer is YES, he can.

You've received a litany of answers, largely opinion, which address whether you should log the time or not, but that isn't what you asked. You asked if you can, and the answer is yes.

A bewildering array of incorrect ideas have been thrown out at you, such as being the subject of legal action or administrative action by insurance, the FAA, et al, if you log PIC time (when you're legally allowed to do so). All of this is incorrect and should be disregarded. Simplify the issue. Can you log the time? Yes. Should you? You decide.

Acting as PIC is not the same as logging PIC.

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

 

[727Niteflyer]

The orginal question was how it related to 135. In 135 to be PIC you need to be qualified. If your not qualified why would you want to log it ? 91 is much different.

 

[avbug]

The orginal question was how it related to 135. In 135 to be PIC you need to be qualified. If your not qualified why would you want to log it ? 91 is much different.

My answer covered that.

The logging of flight time is covered under, and regulated by 14 CFR Part 61; not 91 or 135.