299 line check

[stupidpilot]

PIC under FAR Part 1 is different from sole manipulator. If the aircraft is actually dispatched, and there is listed a PIC on the dispatch sheet, then you cannot log PIC per part 1, but you can per part 91 as sole manipulator. Most airlines only are interested in Part 1 PIC.

 

[Viffer]

Airlines all don't care the same. How about a 500 hour total time pilot who hires on with a commuter, he's got maybe a couple hundred hours pic tops, all in small piston planes. He will fly until his senority says he can bid captain and then he will be flying as a 121 pic, starting out with zero turbine pic of any kind. So how do they know he's ready? Obviously as a pilot starts and stays with a job, he learns, gains experience, and shows the examiners and employers he can handle the job of pic, then is upgraded. What is in their logbook doesn't really even come in to play for all 121, and for the 91/135 world they need a minimum of pic, tt and time in type to be insured and usable as a pic by the operator and audit companies like argus. For that, the auditors don't have a care what kind of pic they have logged as long as they have enough hours, usually about 2500 pic. My point is that somone who looks over a pilot resume will easily be able to judge their real world experience, and a pilot logging pic is not being dishonest, they're being real. It's up to the companies to hire truly qualified pilots for captain jobs, and they can tell if a pilot has the experience or not. No pilot is going to sit for 5 years as a sic simply because they are not allowed to fly the plane or log any meaningful time, and can't get their logbook up to a number that makes them hireable. And for the captains out there who disagree, how did you all get started? At some point you were put into the captain position because someone thought you could handle it and took a chance on you. You somehow learned the skills to act as captain, and gained your first real world experience while still a copilot, and none of you had any 'signed aircraft' pic in your logbooks at that time either. No one does. Don't look at a pilot's logbook and jump to conclusions about their integrity or honesty. Doing that, which was shown and supported in this thread, just highlights what I would call ignorance on the part of those making the judgements.

 

[pilotyip]

either. Don't look at a pilot's logbook and jump to conclusions about their integrity or honesty. Doing that, which was shown and supported in this thread, just highlights what I would call ignorance on the part of those making the judgements.

I will continue to look at a pilot's log books, if I see PIC or SIC time where it does not fit, I am going to question it. That is part of the hiring process. I remember a 3000 hr pilot, CE-500 type rating, 1500 PIC under part 91 in a corp CE-500. Looked like a good catch. As a SIC he could not do descent planning, no idea of fuel planning, talking on the radio was a challenge for this guy. Remember we hired this guy as a potential captain. Turns out he made coffee and carried bags for the owner, never flew, never even talked on the radio, it was all bogus PIC time. BTW he had a nice touch on the gear and flap handels.

 

[Way2Broke]

BTW he had a nice touch on the gear and flap handels.

Now that was funny! :beer:

 

[Viffer]

I will continue to look at a pilot's log books, if I see PIC or SIC time where it does not fit, I am going to question it. That is part of the hiring process. I remember a 3000 hr pilot, CE-500 type rating, 1500 PIC under part 91 in a corp CE-500. Looked like a good catch. As a SIC he could not do descent planning, no idea of fuel planning, talking on the radio was a challenge for this guy. Remember we hired this guy as a potential captain. Turns out he made coffee and carried bags for the owner, never flew, never even talked on the radio, it was all bogus PIC time. BTW he had a nice touch on the gear and flap handels.

Ok that all goes to my point that you need to determine a pilots skill level before you hire them. As the hirer you need to ascertain what they really did in their previous jobs. It also illustrates what can happen with some pilots, not all, who are not allowed to be a part of the trip planning process, and have very little actual time flying the airplane. Captains and flight managers who act like that are their own worst enemies, and any sic who knows that no matter what they are not let into the process and are only alowed to fly if and when there's no pax etc, will develope a 'why bother' attitude. Every operator, department manager, CP and line captain needs to give their sic's the same amount of the chores as every other pilot, or of course they won't develope the skills to be a pic. Every captain needs to let the sic's fly the plane, no matter how any pax, weather, x-winds etc, and they need to let them make flight decisions. A captain who can't or won't do that has no room to complain when that sic doesn't grow into a pic quickly or easily with their company.

Pilotyip, let me ask you something. How did you get your first start as a signing captain? How much time did you have in your logbook as pic as you are describing it in this thread? In other words, how much signing captain time did you have in turbine airplanes when your first flight as a turbine pic? By your own definition of bogus time, I'd say you had zero, because no one can possibly have any by your words. Instead, we have to prove we have the skills to be given that opportunity, and no amount of time in a logbook is going to be the determining factor. That does NOT mean a pilot is not capable either, as you, I and most all pilots have shown when they first make captain.

 

[pilotyip]

Bogus is bogus

Pilotyip, let me ask you something. How did you get your first start as a signing captain? How much time did you have in your logbook as pic as you are describing it in this thread? In other words, how much signing captain time did you have in turbine airplanes when your first flight as a turbine pic? By your own definition of bogus time, I'd say you had zero, because no one can possibly have any by your words. Instead, we have to prove we have the skills to be given that opportunity, and no amount of time in a logbook is going to be the determining factor. That does NOT mean a pilot is not capable either, as you, I and most all pilots have shown when they first make captain.

My first flight as PIC was on July 14 1970 in a P-3A, Buno 150609, 200 NM west of Rota Spain 10.1 hours. I flew a range clearing mission for a Naval Weapons testing exercise. I had no bogus time prior to that point. I was not trying to pretent to be something I was not. Back to the point, Hello Mr 750TT pilot, I see you have 257 hours PIC in a KA-200. Where did you get your training?, Oh I see you made three T/O's and Landing with the boss. No other training, are you named on the insurance? I see. Yes I know sole man is legal PIC, but it proves nothing. In this case it is not even legal SIC.

 

[Viffer]

My first flight as PIC was on July 14 1970 in a P-3A, Buno 150609, 200 NM west of Rota Spain 10.1 hours. I flew a range clearing mission for a Naval Weapons testing exercise. I had no bogus time prior to that point. I was not trying to pretent to be something I was not. Back to the point, Hello Mr 750TT pilot, I see you have 257 hours PIC in a KA-200. Where did you get your training?, Oh I see you made three T/O's and Landing with the boss. No other training, are you named on the insurance? I see. Yes I know sole man is legal PIC, but it proves nothing. In this case it is not even legal SIC.

Ready for the quiz.

Again, that's what I'm getting at, a good interview will show where a pilot really is and what they've really done. Here's a hypothetical situation that might better show what I'm try to say. Let's say you find a candidate with 3000 hours total time, who's been flying sic on a citation, lear, falcon whatever. His logbook has zero pic turbine because he is logging as you do, which is fine. Now this pilot interviews with a great attitude, shows superior skills and knowledge, and you hire them in as a future captain. Problem in the civilian world is this, you can never upgrade that pilot no matter how long they work for you, no matter how great their skills are and no matter how much quality real world experience they gain while working for you. Why? Because as long as they are there they will not put one hour of pic in their logbook, and they will be uninsurable regardless of anything else. If 135 was part of it then they would also need to meet the argus, wyvern etc pic mins or they will be unusable for certain 135 flights on top of that even. So how does that great pilot get upgraded? They can't, ever, without logging some pic.

BTW I'm not saying you're wrong about how you view pic time, and I agree that what the faa says is pic is not an indicator of what real experience a pilot has under their belt. No one really learns every aspect of being in command with being in command, but we have to get there somehow. And you are in a position to judge when a pilot of yours is ready, what would you say to them when you know they are up to it and you want them in the captain seat, but your insurer says forget it? They will instantly start the job search and be gone no matter how much they like the job, and you have to start from scratch with another pilot.

 

[pilotyip]

UAL in thier application explicily states in thier definition of PIC time. do not count sole manipulator (61.51) as PIC time

 

[B737Dvr]

round and round and round we go....where we end up, nobody knows!

Ready for the quiz.

Again, that's what I'm getting at, a good interview will show where a pilot really is and what they've really done. Here's a hypothetical situation that might better show what I'm try to say. Let's say you find a candidate with 3000 hours total time, who's been flying sic on a citation, lear, falcon whatever. His logbook has zero pic turbine because he is logging as you do, which is fine. Now this pilot interviews with a great attitude, shows superior skills and knowledge, and you hire them in as a future captain. Problem in the civilian world is this, you can never upgrade that pilot no matter how long they work for you, no matter how great their skills are and no matter how much quality real world experience they gain while working for you. Why? Because as long as they are there they will not put one hour of pic in their logbook, and they will be uninsurable regardless of anything else.


Not true. There are plenty of operators who do get very low time prodigies or SIC's with no PIC time and after paying their dues...they get upgraded. Insurance requirements are like hiring mins, always flexible depending on the situation. Insurance premiums reflect the situation, and underwriters do take into consideration time in type as well as overrall experience.



If 135 was part of it then they would also need to meet the argus, wyvern etc pic mins or they will be unusable for certain 135 flights on top of that even.

Don't get me started on that whole argus, wyvern crap cause most relevant operators know who is reputable and who isn't. that is only something brokers who have little contacts use as a selling point and after the latest several blackeyes that corporate aviation got in the last several years from accidents in TEB, ASE, and other places, youll find that those involved had high ratings with argus, wyvern...



So how does that great pilot get upgraded? They can't, ever, without logging some pic.

BTW I'm not saying you're wrong about how you view pic time, and I agree that what the faa says is pic is not an indicator of what real experience a pilot has under their belt. No one really learns every aspect of being in command with being in command, but we have to get there somehow. And you are in a position to judge when a pilot of yours is ready, what would you say to them when you know they are up to it and you want them in the captain seat, but your insurer says forget it? They will instantly start the job search and be gone no matter how much they like the job, and you have to start from scratch with another pilot.

Here is something else for you to consider: When there is an accident, and everyone (NTSB, FAA, Insurers etc) start going over training records, logbooks, history.....i will guarantee you that your bogus PIC time (as sole manipulator) will be a prime reason why any payout by the insurer will be null and void due to the misrepresentation of experience.
This whole sole manipulator things was and is for the sole purpose of qualifying for ratings while in training. I mean, what's next including all your solo time(pre private pilot rating) in C-152 towards 135 pic mins?

It's a tough industry, getting the time is tough, being competive is even tougher. Staying audit proof is tougher still.........but showing up to an interview and saying that you were typed from day one and have only logged SIC time from day one, shows that you are completely honest and furthermore shows that you understand what is important, you will be surprised at how things work out so that you are indeed able to fill in a PIC role from day one with no real jet or heavy PIC time to speak of.


In the end, you guys will do what you want, and this is subject to interpretation, but I am conservative in my approach to things. I am cautiously optimistic, if an employer says: fine, then rework your resume and show half of your experience as PIC to satisfy reqs.....then let him/her make THAT CALL.

Best of luck to all you guys out there, its a tough industry/field/profession.

 

[fr8r]

fr8r, it is obvious by the content of your posting and your major hardon for logging PIC time that you are quite inexperienced. PilotYip, has your real-world practical answer. What he is trying to tell you (and 9 out of 10 people who make hiring decisions will agree with him) is that if you show up to an interview with PIC time and then go on to explain that X amount of it is 'as sole manipulator of the controls", they will laugh in your face and discount all of it.
your position on switching roles based on corporate aviation switching seats is misleading and detracts from infallible point of there only being 1 true PIC.
The fact that you are squeezing legalese to suit your needs to build time totally demonstrates your lack of experience and calls to attention the fact that you truly dont understand how employers (135 and 121) view the PIC role. We all understand that if you are the pilot flying, the guy in the right seat (who is the real PIC) can take that plane away from you at any time, and is the one that everyone will hold accountable on the ground for anything that happens because...he is the pilot in command.

Take pilotyip's realworld advice to heart, the other alternative is to hold on to your naive beliefs, state your PIC time as sole manipulator and then watch as the interviewer will tear it to shreds.

btw....someone else on here tried to help you out as well by telling you that you got a lower level on the fly interpretation of the regs. If you knew better, you'd know that what you heard isn't something that you could take to court because it didnt come from national legal counsel and isn't binding.
If you had more experience you would know that if you ask 4 FSDO's a question, you will get 4 different interpretations. Ever get ramped in one part of the country, face a problem and then tell the inspector that the local FSDO has signed off on it only to hear that it is still a problem? Ever been to another country and hear a different foreign interpretation of an ICAO rule, even tho you are legit by FAA standards?

Bottom line, big jet operators care about how much time you have as a captain (with full authority and responsibility) and dont give a ******************** how much time you have manipulating the controls. a monkey can do that, but it takes experience, good judgement and common sense to know whats important as a captain and what is bs.

Thanks for shooting me dead. I have actually signed for many aircraft... both turbine/jet. I have plenty of experience to talk politely about this subject as well. I don't need to hurl insults at people about their experience. I was only asking if someone could clarify LOGGING of PIC. If you read my posts, then you would realize that I know the difference between ACTING as PIC and LOGGING PIC. I've also been ramp checked and the whole gambit. I guess I need to place in my profile that I too have flown all the heavy metal in the world. Because the last time I checked, it doesn't mean you know it all. This is exactly why I haven't been on this site in a while. Everyone loves to jab at everyone else. It's very elementary.