2000 hour wonders hired at Delta

[JAFI]

But military hours are of higher quality. .

I was told that Embry Riddle hours were of higher quality - by a Riddle grad of course. It seems some military guys (or Riddle people) think that their hours are of higher quality.

I had a former military pilot remind me that he had done more inverted spins than I ever had. ( I did not start this conversation). I asked "in air carrer service (where we worked at the time) how many inverted spins he ever did carring passengers". I reminded him thet I had a run of 12 legs in a 16 hour duty day with no crew chief, dispatch, fueler, or loader. I asked him if he had... he never answered.

It's a job. Get over it.

Can you say - Inflated Ego - ??

 

[Whaler]

So how does all that superior training, especially single seat, make you more able to fly an airliner than a properly trained and seasoned regional captain? Honestly, you must explain this to me.

I work with and train many x mil guys. They are good pilots, but no better than a freight guy or regional guy that has paid their dues. In fact we have a compliance problem with the e mil guys refusing to follow SOPs and an inate inability to fly as a crew. We have no such problems with the ex airline guys.

Your statement is overly simplistic and a slap in the face to every pilot that came up through the ranks without the military.

I fail to see how 1500 hours in a F15 is better experience than say 4000+ hours with 2000 hour of that being as a regional captain. I'm not saying you and your ilk are not as good as the experienced regional guy I am just trying to understand where your air of superiority comes from.

Last time I checked we were being asked to fly to DTW and land, not drop a strike package on it.

I'm not trying to come off as superior but when you are comparing a guy coming up through regional training and saying more folks would rather fly with them then a 1500 hr Mil guy. I have to completely disagree. Look at the Colgan accident. Guys (and the gal) can sneak through the regional training into a 121 glass cockpit. You think the colgan capt would have made it through all the training that 1500 hr F16 guy made it through? You think he's the only one out there?

You do fail to see it cause you haven't been through the training. Like you I've instructed but as a T-38 IP. We had to non fighter qual quite a few regional airline pilot guard guys (many with 3000+ crj time) . They often just couldn't keep up with the jet. Let's face we all like this airline flying cause it is, 99% of the time, it's a very easy job and pays pretty well (oneday hopefully......), but when the proverbial you know what hits the fan, I would rather have that F16 guy up there. Sorry I know that offends you but from the original posters theory that most would want to be flown by a 3000 hr 121 guy vs a 1500hr F16 guy, I very much disagree....

I'm just saying....

 

[CX880]

I was told that Embry Riddle hours were of higher quality - by a Riddle grad of course. It seems some military guys (or Riddle people) think that their hours are of higher quality.

I had a former military pilot remind me that he had done more inverted spins than I ever had. ( I did not start this conversation). I asked "in air carrer service (where we worked at the time) how many inverted spins he ever did carring passengers". I reminded him thet I had a run of 12 legs in a 16 hour duty day with no crew chief, dispatch, fueler, or loader. I asked him if he had... he never answered.

It's a job. Get over it.

Can you say - Inflated Ego - ??

Spin experience is useless for transport category. How many aileron rolls had he done?

 

[Moon-dog]

So you'd leave SWA to come over to the big D? Good choice dude! Get back to the heavy metal that you deserve.

You are assuming that he could get hired by SWA to begin with. They are pretty good at weeding out losers, I mean, just look at the General and Scope, for example!! Methinks TC will get hit by the idiot-whacker as well!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not trying to come off as superior but when you are comparing a guy coming up through regional training and saying more folks would rather fly with them then a 1500 hr Mil guy. I have to completely disagree. Look at the Colgan accident. Guys (and the gal) can sneak through the regional training into a 121 glass cockpit. You think the colgan capt would have made it through all the training that 1500 hr F16 guy made it through? You think he's the only one out there?

Yet the military is full of accidents both from hacking the mission and guys screwing around....

You do fail to see it cause you haven't been through the training. Like you I've instructed but as a T-38 IP. We had to non fighter qual quite a few regional airline pilot guard guys (many with 3000+ crj time) . They often just couldn't keep up with the jet. Let's face we all like this airline flying cause it is, 99% of the time, it's a very easy job and pays pretty well (oneday hopefully......), but when the proverbial you know what hits the fan, I would rather have that F16 guy up there. Sorry I know that offends you but from the original posters theory that most would want to be flown by a 3000 hr 121 guy vs a 1500hr F16 guy, I very much disagree....

I'm just saying....

What you fail to realize is... the regional guys are doing it with no resources... meaning no money...

The DoD budget makes it pretty easy... everything is covered... it might not be the best and most comfortable unless you are USAF, but the regional guy flies 4 or 5 day trips constantly .. up to 30 hours a week.... with minimal mission planning.... and pay that qualifies for govt assistance...

In addition regionals pilots can seamlessly switch to the majors... same rules, ame type of flying... whereas MIL guys take longer to learn a completely different kind of flying... they adapt well.... but they do have to adapt...

It seems you know much about MIL flying and little about regional flying...

History is full of examples of civilian pilots who have done it better.. from Air Mail in the 1920s to flying freight in WWII to modern day CRAF missions...

Not sure why the MIL guys need to stroke their peacock feathers... it all comes down to attitude.....

 

[m80drvr]

I'm not trying to come off as superior but when you are comparing a guy coming up through regional training and saying more folks would rather fly with them then a 1500 hr Mil guy. I have to completely disagree. Look at the Colgan accident. Guys (and the gal) can sneak through the regional training into a 121 glass cockpit. You think the colgan capt would have made it through all the training that 1500 hr F16 guy made it through? You think he's the only one out there?

You do fail to see it cause you haven't been through the training. Like you I've instructed but as a T-38 IP. We had to non fighter qual quite a few regional airline pilot guard guys (many with 3000+ crj time) . They often just couldn't keep up with the jet. Let's face we all like this airline flying cause it is, 99% of the time, it's a very easy\\

job and pays pretty well (oneday hopefully......), but when the proverbial you know what hits the fan, I would rather have that F16 guy up there. Sorry I know that offends you but from the original posters theory that most would want to be flown by a 3000 hr 121 guy vs a 1500hr F16 guy, I very much disagree....

I'm just saying....

I've flown with man mil guys that said they had plenty that slipped through the cracks.....look at any list of military accidents and you will probably see the same average (if not more)amount of pilot error accidents as you see in the civillian world. Just a year ago I was flying with a guy the just lost a friend in the sandbox. CFIT into a mountain. Perfectly good jet flown into a mountain on a VFR night. Their superior training and flying skills did not save that guy (actually two guys). God rest their souls!!!! And I pray for their families.


The Colgan pilots were very unqualified, no debate about that but to paint all commuter pilots with that brush indicates that you do, in fact, think you are superior because you were lucky enought to get your training paid for by the govt. If you have not yet gotten on with a major airline I would suggest the for the intervie, IOE and until you upgrade to captain, you check you attitude at the door. After the interview is over you are just a number. The 2000 hour wonder that is a day older than you will be senior to you regardless is you flew an F16, F22, F whatever. That 2000 hour wonder may be your captain. You and the rest of the mil guys should be honored for your service with a big thanks form all of us. But your attitude toward the rest of you fellow aviators does you and the rest of the mil folks a disservice. Airlines are small places, rumors and nofly lists form awefully quickly.

PS One more thing. Some of the non mil guys that troll this board just might be on the hiring board of the airline you want to get on with. Chest thumping and public distain toward the thousands of airlline folks applying for the same jobs may not be a good career move for you anf the rest fo you squadron mates trying to get a job.


Good luck

 

[Moon-dog]

Yet the military is full of accidents both from hacking the mission and guys screwing around....

What you fail to realize is... the regional guys are doing it with no resources... meaning no money...

The DoD budget makes it pretty easy... everything is covered... it might not be the best and most comfortable unless you are USAF, but the regional guy flies 4 or 5 day trips constantly .. up to 30 hours a week.... with minimal mission planning.... and pay that qualifies for govt assistance...

In addition regionals pilots can seamlessly switch to the majors... same rules, ame type of flying... whereas MIL guys take longer to learn a completely different kind of flying... they adapt well.... but they do have to adapt...

It seems you know much about MIL flying and little about regional flying...

History is full of examples of civilian pilots who have done it better.. from Air Mail in the 1920s to flying freight in WWII to modern day CRAF missions...

Not sure why the MIL guys need to stroke their peacock feathers... it all comes down to attitude.....

Sounds like every other washout at the TRB.

 

[Whaler]

What you fail to realize is... the regional guys are doing it with no resources... meaning no money...

The DoD budget makes it pretty easy... everything is covered... it might not be the best and most comfortable unless you are USAF, but the regional guy flies 4 or 5 day trips constantly .. up to 30 hours a week.... with minimal mission planning.... and pay that qualifies for govt assistance...

Exactly! Thanks for making my point. The training doesn't compare....That's my entire point

 

[m80drvr]

Exactly! Thanks for making my point. The training doesn't compare....That's my entire point

No he was saying that with all that free training the Mil has just as many, if not for pilot error crashes than the airlines.

Nice try though.

 

[Whaler]

I've flown with man mil guys that said they had plenty that slipped through the cracks.....look at any list of military accidents and you will probably see the same average (if not more)amount of pilot error accidents as you see in the civillian world. Just a year ago I was flying with a guy the just lost a friend in the sandbox. CFIT into a mountain. Perfectly good jet flown into a mountain on a VFR night. Their superior training and flying skills did not save that guy (actually two guys). God rest their souls!!!! And I pray for their families.


The Colgan pilots were very unqualified, no debate about that but to paint all commuter pilots with that brush indicates that you do, in fact, think you are superior because you were lucky enought to get your training paid for by the govt. If you have not yet gotten on with a major airline I would suggest the for the intervie, IOE and until you upgrade to captain, you check you attitude at the door. After the interview is over you are just a number. The 2000 hour wonder that is a day older than you will be senior to you regardless is you flew an F16, F22, F whatever. That 2000 hour wonder may be your captain. You and the rest of the mil guys should be honored for your service with a big thanks form all of us. But your attitude toward the rest of you fellow aviators does you and the rest of the mil folks a disservice. Airlines are small places, rumors and nofly lists form awefully quickly.

PS One more thing. Some of the non mil guys that troll this board just might be on the hiring board of the airline you want to get on with. Chest thumping and public distain toward the thousands of airlline folks applying for the same jobs may not be a good career move for you anf the rest fo you squadron mates trying to get a job.


Good luck

The whole discussion started with someone saying a 3000 hr regional guy was a safer bet then a 1500 hr F16 guy. I'm simply disagreeing with that original principle.

I'm already exactly where I need to be for my entire career and I have zero disdain for my civilian counterparts. I simply took offense to the 3000 hr regional guy being more qualified then the 1500 hr F16 guy. That's all - maybe the chip is on your shoulder...

 

[Jack Campbell]

The whole discussion started with someone saying a 3000 hr regional guy was a safer bet then a 1500 hr F16 guy. I'm simply disagreeing with that original principle.

I'm already exactly where I need to be for my entire career and I have zero disdain for my civilian counterparts. I simply took offense to the 3000 hr regional guy being more qualified then the 1500 hr F16 guy. That's all - maybe the chip is on your shoulder...

Perhaps the chip is on your shoulder. It is not the civilian or military background that makes a better pilot. While his background is part of the equation, the superior pilot is simply a superior individual.

 

[Whaler]

No he was saying that with all that free training the Mil has just as many, if not for pilot error crashes than the airlines.

Nice try though.

I'm sure there are way more crashes on the mil side. You think the type of flying an F16 guy all without an autopilot does might be slightly more task saturating the flying from two city pairs on autopilot 99% of the flight?

But what do I know, I've only done both types of flying. I'm sure you are way more qualified to tell me what my military sorties are like.

 

[JAFI]

Let's see:

BE200
EMB -120
BE 99
Twin Otter
BE-18
Shorts
CASA
BE 1900

What's an Auto pilot....???? Is that when you trim it up on a calm day????? (Humor, weak but humor anyhow).

Beat that dead horse. The EGO rules when "I'M" betther than you because......

 

[jonjuan]

Exactly! Thanks for making my point. The training doesn't compare....That's my entire point

Your comprehension is quite limited for a college degreed military officer guy. My Dad was in the USMC (and then Eastern) and regularly laughed at those who were from the AF as he believed they were pansies and could never make it through USMC OCS and subsequent flight training. He felt the af dudes were afraid of making decisions when the sh1t hit the fan.

 

[Ad Lib]

If I can toss a logical guess on the pile ... .

Many women network very well and participate in Women in Aviation (WIA) and other programs which demonstrate they are doing something in aviation in addition to flying the line. Whether it be Habitat for Humanity, WIA, or some other community or management involvement, it demonstrates for the interviewer that a candidate likes association with people outside of work and is willing to do a little extra.

Many of the women are also better focused than their counterparts on getting to their career goals. They unabashedly network and they are smart about how they play the game that results in achieving their ambitions.

I've seen folks from both sexes play the game successfully.

 

[m80drvr]

I'm sure there are way more crashes on the mil side. You think the type of flying an F16 guy all without an autopilot does might be slightly more task saturating the flying from two city pairs on autopilot 99% of the flight?

But what do I know, I've only done both types of flying. I'm sure you are way more qualified to tell me what my military sorties are like.

But your superior training and pilot ability should all but rule out pilot error crashes in the mil.......am I missing something? Remember the mil has "superior "training.

No chip on my shoulder........I didn't start the mil vs civ discussion. I just will not sit idle and listen to this drivel. Especially since I have trained and flew with both. But who knows I only have 9500 civillian hours, a few thousand approaches, and may years flying up and down the east coast corridor.

Funny part is some of my best friends are ex mil guys. Great guys. I like drinkin beer with them.

Anyway.. you win!! You are the better pilot than all commuter pilots, your dad can beat up all commuter pilot's dad's combined, and your wife is better looking than all commuter pilots wives....you win. I'm tired and going to bed

Congrats...you are a superior mil pilot

Later

PS. Where in my posts did I EVER say I could tell you how to fly a military sortie? WTF man if you are doing to have a discussion please keep it on topic. I never said I was in the military. I never suggested I could fly an F16 sortie better than you. I will on the otherhand tell you that I probably require less training, less IOE and less handholding if we were hired day one at an airline. I have spent years doing airline type flying. What makes you think you can do it better your first day on the job. Talk about arrogance.

 

[jonjuan]

The whole discussion started with someone saying a 3000 hr regional guy was a safer bet then a 1500 hr F16 guy. I'm simply disagreeing with that original principle.

I'm already exactly where I need to be for my entire career and I have zero disdain for my civilian counterparts. I simply took offense to the 3000 hr regional guy being more qualified then the 1500 hr F16 guy. That's all - maybe the chip is on your shoulder...

Listen up, whaler. My intention is not to look down on you, but your generalities are spot on wrong. I'm not saying there aren't quite a few competent af fighter guys who become airline pilots, however, the "redflag" training they provide every 1,500 hour f16 pilot doesn't necessarily translate to being a competent 121 crew member. You claim that an f16 pilot will quickly outfly on the line a 3,000 regional pilot who has spent 3-5 years in weather at jfk, ewr, lga, ord, dfw, lax, etc. is patently laughable. I have flown with a number of reserve and guard fighter pilots and would place their crm skills as above average and below average relative to their non military counterparts.
Let's go a step further and really uncover your beliefs about your training. Do you believe that a 1,500 hour purely fighter guy/gal would perform the same on the line (in bad weather in DTW) at CAL/UAL/DAL as a 6,000 hour former regional Captain?

 

[xjhawk]

This all reminds me of the United joke back in the day........

UAL: "United XXX looking for a shortcut."

Unknown AC : "Just be patient sweetie, your whole career has been a shortcut."


Gup

Awesome, Delta is the new United. Maybe the new United will shelve the AirApps system and not start from the bottom of the pool of applicants and hire pilots with experience. The one guy hired from Mesaba was low in experience and high in letters of recommendations. Oh yeah and he had a problem with not showing up for work on time but did not put it in his file. But yet I call in sick for my son being born and I get a letter in my file. I am sure happy they cut the flow off at mesaba, I would think they would not want too many guys with 10,000 hours of flight experience to be forced on them as they want less experience.

 

[Beaver79]

LOL- it's the blame game. If I'm not mistaken, everyone goes thru the same interview with CAs, technical, and computer test. I think most people would rather be flown by someone with 3,000 hours 121 glass over 4 years versus 1,500 f16 over 8 years, not that it really matters as they are hiring people to be fo's and not ca's.
Trg not to beat your wife over your entitlement.

Ah yes, showing how smart you aren't. 3000 hrs of glass looking at the AUTOPILOT fly while a Viper driver actually touches the controls (yes, I know, you'll make the fly by wire argument next). 1500 hrs in a Viper is about 10K at a regional. The amount of flying hours has NOTHING to do with the quality of a pilot when he/she attains about a 1000 in a turbine aircraft. This argument is old and outdated.

Lastly, most ppl only care what the ticket costs - otherwise they wouldn't select a regional jet/prop to fly on. I'll take the 500 hr viper guy over you with 10000 in a regional jet.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

This argument of military vs. civilian is only applicable here in the US where the military supplies a large number of pilots into the market, in all other markets in the world the vast majority of pilots come from a civilian background and that doesn't mean they are not individuals with solid character and credentials, you guys always get into this ridiculous argument that simply has no right or wrong answer. Airlines hire "individuals" and anybody who meets their minimum requirements has a shot if invited to the interview, Why these 2,000 hour pilots that so disrespectfully are being called "wonders" got hired? They did well on their interviews. So "salud y buena fortuna" is what you should be saying and not disrespecting their achievement just because you or your buddy didn't get hired, that only proves the company right for having selected them and not you.