2000 hour wonders hired at Delta

[GuppyWN]

We all end up in the same place - 60 and miserable. Some of us just took a different path to get here!

Gup

 

[Data]

Has anyone asked Tim Martins what he thinks? After all, he's been on both sides and is more qualified than anyone in here. He is so good he doesn't even have to do the Challenge/Reply portion of checklists, the checklists do it for him.

 

[knightflyer]

5 Pages of nothing. So far....

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Riddle=Entitlement ego....

 

[Fox-Tree]

Oh yeah, how may days have you flown 7 legs in the weather, in the northeast corridor while in the military?.

You claim that an f16 pilot will quickly outfly on the line a 3,000 regional pilot who has spent 3-5 years in weather at jfk, ewr, lga, ord, dfw, lax, etc. is patently laughable.

Do you believe that a 1,500 hour purely fighter guy/gal would perform the same on the line (in bad weather in DTW) at CAL/UAL/DAL as a 6,000 hour former regional Captain?

Ooooohhhh...........weather .... in the northeast corridor .... bad, bad weather in DETRIOT!!!! 3-5 years of weather - make it stop!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the humanity!!!

You guys seem to be a little intimidated by the thought of flying in some weather..... or at least you seem to think it's hard, I guess.

Airline flying: Point A to B. Maybe a SID, a little cruise, vectors to an ILS, maybe a STAR now and then.......... and there's two of you!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Nothing new here...We got them at ASA first because of an EEOC lawsuit..

http://www.socialfunds.com/news/print.cgi?sfArticleId=468

PC gone mad...

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Ooooohhhh...........weather .... in the northeast corridor .... bad, bad weather in DETRIOT!!!! 3-5 years of weather - make it stop!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the humanity!!!

You guys seem to be a little intimidated by the thought of flying in some weather..... or at least you seem to think it's hard, I guess.

Airline flying: Point A to B. Maybe a SID, a little cruise, vectors to an ILS, maybe a STAR now and then.......... and there's two of you!!!

Again, you have no idea what it's like to work at a REGIONAL. You went right to Fedex which is actually an airline where you're porbably spoon-fed everything. Hell, if you can't decide whether to go or not without crew meals, someone probably decides that for you.

At the regionals there's virtually zero support from dispatch, operations; your newly minted FO who is actually a menace more than anything. Add to that about six deferrals one of which is the APU, doing unpressurized takeoffs and landings, yada, yada, yada... The military direct to mainline route must be nice, but try about a month of regional flying in the northeast winters and you'll see it isn't what you think never mind ten years of that ********************.

 

[Fox-Tree]

Again, you have no idea what it's like to work at a REGIONAL. You went right to Fedex which is actually an airline where you're porbably spoon-fed everything. Hell, if you can't decide whether to go or not without crew meals, someone probably decides that for you.

At the regionals there's virtually zero support from dispatch, operations; your newly minted FO who is actually a menace more than anything. Add to that about six deferrals one of which is the APU, doing unpressurized takeoffs and landings, yada, yada, yada... The military direct to mainline route must be nice, but try about a month of regional flying in the northeast winters and you'll see it isn't what you think never mind ten years of that ********************.

Oakum,
I'm on my third airline. Easy w/ the assumptions.

So, you've got no ACARS, dispatch won't talk to you, you need to call a FSS, your F/O is worthless, you haven't eaten for 8 hours, the weather is bad and you need to divert. Bad day.

I could build a equally bad day on the other side of the planet dealing with Chinese ATC, metric altimetry, a serious system malfunction while juggling a SATCOM call, CPDLC comm issues and a possible divert to Kazakhstan. Regional guys don't have the market cornered on bad days just because they don't have big jets and all the toys.

However, nothing I've experienced in the 11 years I've been doing the airline/cargo thing has exceeded the challenges I experienced in the military. Since I left the service, I've flown 6 different airliners and operated to every continent on the planet except Antarctica. So, I feel like I've seen a pretty good cross section of what the civilian world of 121 type flying can throw my way. So far, it's been easier than the military. But, that's me. Maybe your situation is different. But, if the worst you've got is a disaster scenario involving the dreaded northeast, winter weather, a green F/O, some deferrals and lack of dispatch support, I'm not going to be impressed. Sorry.

From my perspective, I'm glad it's easier. Thank goodness we all don't have that level of challenge every time we go to work for Fedex, Delta or whoever. I'm just glad that I have some extraordinary experiences to help me cope when things start getting tougher.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Yep, great. All in a day's work. I get it.. and I've heard the same story from more than a few friends who've gone to work at your company and others like it, and they all say exactly what you do.. It's wonderful, much easier than my last job, etc., etc, and nothing like the regional they left behind. Sounds strikingly similar to your military>major experience which was exactly my point.

 

[jonjuan]

Ooooohhhh...........weather .... in the northeast corridor .... bad, bad weather in DETRIOT!!!! 3-5 years of weather - make it stop!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the humanity!!!

You guys seem to be a little intimidated by the thought of flying in some weather..... or at least you seem to think it's hard, I guess.

Airline flying: Point A to B. Maybe a SID, a little cruise, vectors to an ILS, maybe a STAR now and then.......... and there's two of you!!!

Hey dummy, you need to understand a little sarcasm that apparently was missed by you and your fellow milly guy. Apparently, he's "Iceman" when it comes to flying a civilian plane in bad weather.

The training that the viper guy has been through has no equal in the civilian world. He may have some catching up to do with the glass guy in training, but will soon be outpacing him as soon as IOE. If the Viper guy can stay ahead of a single seat jet as a mission commander of a package (sts) on a red flag sortie or in actual combat, he can stay ahead of an Airbus 320 into DTW in poor wx.

 

[Fox-Tree]

Yep, great. All in a day's work. I get it.. and I've heard the same story from more than a few friends who've gone to work at your company and others like it, and they all say exactly what you do.. It's wonderful, much easier than my last job, etc., etc, and nothing like the regional they left behind. Sounds strikingly similar to your military>major experience which was exactly my point.

Simply attending and completing UPT or Navy flight school and the follow on schools doesn't make a superior pilot. I've seen too many tools in the military to try to think otherwise.

There are pilots out there from both civilian and military backgrounds who excel in their jobs at whatever airline they work. It comes easily to them because they have some extraordinary talents they were either born with, aquired through hard work or both. They don't sweat every checkride with hours and hours of prep, wring their hands over a line check or get intimidated by a little weather. They make it look easy because it is to them. It probably doesn't matter which path they took to the cockpit they now occupy. They would still be the outstanding pilot they are.

If this job is really, really hard for you and and you've got to work your arse off to do it well, that's just the way it is. What you need to try to accept is that there are some pilots out there from both military and civilian backgrounds that don't have that problem. Deal with it.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Oakum,
I'm on my third airline. Easy w/ the assumptions.

So, you've got no ACARS, dispatch won't talk to you, you need to call a FSS, your F/O is worthless, you haven't eaten for 8 hours, the weather is bad and you need to divert. Bad day.

I could build a equally bad day on the other side of the planet dealing with Chinese ATC, metric altimetry, a serious system malfunction while juggling a SATCOM call, CPDLC comm issues and a possible divert to Kazakhstan. Regional guys don't have the market cornered on bad days just because they don't have big jets and all the toys.

However, nothing I've experienced in the 11 years I've been doing the airline/cargo thing has exceeded the challenges I experienced in the military. Since I left the service, I've flown 6 different airliners and operated to every continent on the planet except Antarctica. So, I feel like I've seen a pretty good cross section of what the civilian world of 121 type flying can throw my way. So far, it's been easier than the military. But, that's me. Maybe your situation is different. But, if the worst you've got is a disaster scenario involving the dreaded northeast, winter weather, a green F/O, some deferrals and lack of dispatch support, I'm not going to be impressed. Sorry.

From my perspective, I'm glad it's easier. Thank goodness we all don't have that level of challenge every time we go to work for Fedex, Delta or whoever. I'm just glad that I have some extraordinary experiences to help me cope when things start getting tougher.

We've all walked that line Fox-tree....no need to walk us through all your glory....yawnn!

Let him vent! He's got a point!

 

[CRJ's suck]

You are assuming that he could get hired by SWA to begin with. They are pretty good at weeding out losers, I mean, just look at the General and Scope, for example!! Methinks TC will get hit by the idiot-whacker as well!!

They might be good at weeding out the losers on the pilot side, but on the mechanic side they suck. This isn't a knock on Southwest mechanics or Southwest itself. I just find it funny when people say this because I know some great mechanics, hard workers, pleasure to work with, and they are always willing to help out a fellow mechanic that never got hired. These guys got passed over for the guys that didn't know jack squat, disappear in the middle of a job, stab you in the back, couldn't tell you the difference between their poophole and megger to save their lives type. Basically total a-holes that do not know anything.

Of course this happens everywhere, I just think it's funny that Southwest touts how they hire the best, but really it's no different than anywhere else when it comes to hiring. I guess some guys just interview REALLY well.

 

[lindsaya99]

How about a 15oo hr UND ex sorority chick?

or an ex-PSA flight attendant, ex-mesa pilot development student, ex-mesa FO with a 737 type purchased by women in aviation. At least Delta hired her husband too.

 

[JumpersAway]

The point isn't where you got your time- civilian or military. The type of time you rallied is irrelivent the moment you walk through the door at the airline for your first day in class. From the moment you walk through that door, you aren't a civilian pilot or a military pilot- you are a pilot for Delta, SW, American, etc. From that point on, you are there to do it THEIR way. Your prior time merely got you through the door. The attitude of civil or military superiority WILL get you usured out the door if you can't adapt and work well with the person sitting next to you. I personally know of multiple civilian and military folks alike, that didn't make it through training after getting hired. Bottom line- it's all about attitude and adaptability...........

 

[lowlycfi]

Wow 5 pages of my dick is bigger than your dick.

 

[Frisko]

Me- Standard civilian background, 5 years at the regionals then AF UPT and fighter track, 5 years there now back to airlines
Hard to compare both tracks when you haven't been through both of them....
my opinion....
Can't compare the training, not even close. Regional flying challenging? I think we all know better ....but that .000001% of the time where a little airmanship is required, I feel more comfortable falling back on the mil experience.
Not saying it can't be found somewhere else, and not saying there are no bad fighter pilots or that I'm not one of them, but I def. didn't find it in my 5 years of drooling on myself doing 8 legs a day at the regionals or through my civ experience.

M80drvr-
CFIT in Afghanistan? Night VFR? Combat sortie? Competency? Let's not simplify that example

 

[Monster Buck]

I have not applied.

Military time can not be compared with pilot mill trained 2000 hour wonders. Some of these places are a joke.

I just don't understand why highly competent, experienced pilots (way more than me) are bypassed for these people.

Obama can answer that for you.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Obama can answer that for you.

Finally!!

An idiot chimes in.......Standard!!

Ok Beavis, how does he have ANYTHING to do with this thread!! Go back to jerking off to Glenn Beck (High School Grad, no college, drug addict) you clown!

 

[Monster Buck]

Finally!!

An idiot chimes in.......Standard!!

Ok Beavis, how does he have ANYTHING to do with this thread!! Go back to jerking off to Glenn Beck (High School Grad, no college, drug addict) you clown!

Man you have an anger problem. Chill bro, I didn't mean to speak bad of your homie. Peace out.

 

[CX880]

Me- Standard civilian background, 5 years at the regionals then AF UPT and fighter track, 5 years there now back to airlines
Hard to compare both tracks when you haven't been through both of them....
my opinion....
Can't compare the training, not even close. Regional flying challenging? I think we all know better ....but that .000001% of the time where a little airmanship is required, I feel more comfortable falling back on the mil experience.
Not saying it can't be found somewhere else, and not saying there are no bad fighter pilots or that I'm not one of them, but I def. didn't find it in my 5 years of drooling on myself doing 8 legs a day at the regionals or through my civ experience.

M80drvr-
CFIT in Afghanistan? Night VFR? Combat sortie? Competency? Let's not simplify that example

That depends on what kind of civ experience you got. If your regional track was the tech support of the Autopilot on the CRJ then that is not applicable experience. I would rather have someone that has flown night frieght or preferably an old airplane with no AP vs some F16 QRH operator. Currency also plays a role, 2000 hours in the military maybe quality time, but it's still 2000 hours which really does not apply to 121 flying, unless we start bombing cities or fly VFR around canyons anytime soon.

 

[waveflyer]

Ahh- the age old- mil-civ debate:

the trump card is simply checkairman experience - and experience as a captain-
to a captain- when I was new, they get relieved when they find out my civilian background.

It's not that the mil guy can't do it- they just haven't done it and it takes a bit to get up to speed. Vs the regional pilot has been doing the job at a more demanding pace for years-

Think the previous poster had it nailed- if you've challenged yourself and gone after excellence, you're going to value your experience- but it serves noone to not realize there are many paths to the same place

 

[rfa]

Sooooooooo flying a 40 year old tanker on autopilot is of higher quality than flying a modern EFIS RJ on autopilot? Please explain this should be interesting. You might want to get over yourself, and pass that on to your "Delta buddies"(Thanks for your service though) Oh yeah, how may days have you flown 7 legs in the weather, in the northeast corridor while in the military?

PS. Fighter time does NOT make you a good airline pilot. It makes you a good fighter pilot.

Well said, I am amazed people still buy this stuff even within our own industry.

 

[Frisko]

opinions vary...we obviously won't agree
like I said... after doing both
my opinion the military training and experience was much better than any civilian training I found in various jobs 5 years prior to the regionals, or 5 years at the regionals, and I'm glad I went that route.
If you've been through both and can say the same about your experience then cool. I don't recall ever hearing anyone who has been through both say their civilian training was better or that it better prepared them for 121.
Big picture....does it make me better for airline type flying....who really cares...that bar isn't too high

 

[m80drvr]

M80drvr-
CFIT in Afghanistan? Night VFR? Combat sortie? Competency? Let's not simplify that example

I didn't oversimplify anything. A perfectly good jet was flown into ground in VFR at night. A tragic accident but the facts are the facts. It happens all the time. It was not me that was touting the superiority of being a mil pilot. I was just pointing out that pilot error also happens the mil guys regardless of their superior training and ability.

 

[rfa]

You know who I would rather be stuck with?

...someone who started out in gliders and built up considerable time in them before moving on to airplanes. This is not vanity (ignore my profile) I have very few hours in them. This could be a coincidence, but from experience, every single time I was impressed with an airline pilot (or any pilot actually), he or she turned out to have considerable time in gliders during their initial training. Something about their attitudes too - can't put my finger on it though.

 

[Frisko]

I didn't oversimplify anything. A perfectly good jet was flown into ground in VFR at night. A tragic accident but the facts are the facts. It happens all the time. It was not me that was touting the superiority of being a mil pilot. I was just pointing out that pilot error also happens the mil guys regardless of their superior training and ability.

Next time you point your nose 60 degrees at the ground to strafe, with no moon illum, "vfr", in an area with a 25k MSA, to save some dudes ass on the ground between Newark and Cleveland you can comment on CFIT in Afghanistan.

 

[m80drvr]

Next time you point your nose 60 degrees at the ground to strafe, with no moon illum, "vfr", in an area with a 25k MSA, to save some dudes ass on the ground between Newark and Cleveland you can comment on CFIT in Afghanistan.

You missed the point........AGAIN....

 

[Frisko]

no I got your point, I think it's wrong, and I think using those incidents as a comparison for pilot error and training is not only incorrect but disrespectful of the guys you are using as an example

 

[jonjuan]

but disrespectful of the guys you are using as an example

"to save some dudes ass on the ground?" Talking of disrespectful...