170/175 and CRJ900

[flap operator]

Wow... absolutely incredible. The attitude that Compass pilots are somehow more worthy of being a mainline Delta pilot because they were screened by mainline NWA pilots is ludicrous. You guys and this push to staple Compass have a few good points that support your position. Unfortunately you're grasping for straws in a lot of the arguments... like this screening bit.

So, somehow the Mesaba, Comair and other DCI pilots are somehow inferior because we didn't go through the mainline interview? Do you know anything about the interview process at XJ and OH? Didn't think so. We're just a bunch of cowboy, unskilled, unprofessional, unsafe misfits to you huh? Except when you want the jumpseat of course.

I'm all for a good fight and admire the tenacity of a few DL pilots who want to staple Compass. I don't agree with all your motives and reasonings, but it doesn't matter in the end. If your fight just BEGINS with Compass, as you claim, perhaps it's wise to NOT alienate the rest of us. Especially since Compass pilots have no voice and the rest of the DCI groups with our own MECs do. If you're going to want to dance in the future, we're going to have to be willing.

The attitudes in trying to justify your cause are just amazing. It makes me sick.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Do you know anything about the interview process at XJ and OH? Didn't think so.

Actually, I do know quite a bit about those processes, among others. The fact is that the standards are different. I find it insulting that you think that a major interview is just the same as a regional one! That shows that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Not to mention the screening that goes on before you are even invited to the interview....

If you want to sell the pilots from the other regionals to the majority of the pilot group, there is going to have to be some sort of "filter." I've barked up this tree several times, and that is the general consensus.


Edit: Also speaking out of lack of knowledge you said the CPZ pilots have no say in this. They do. They have spoken out very strongly in favor for this. They are on the street if we are to furlough, and additionally are just waiting for a mainline number (which they have rights to).

 

[Flybet3]

We are trying to prove you wrong.. this is the first and most simple step.

Keep telling yourself the CRJ isnt worthy. When I last jumpseated on a CRJ-900, we took off weighing 82,000 pounds. The picture on airliners.net of a 900 taxiing next to a DC-9-30 makes me sick.

If this movement gets momentum (as it should... most of the senior captains I fly with are more than fired up about getting brand scope), you'll see a significant push (a la AAL) when negotiations start up again.

I've tried to push the deal with just bringing on all the wholly owned carriers with guys, but there is alot of resistance since XJ and OH haven't had a mainline interview or been appropriately screened. This would be the same with the other regionals, though even more hurdles.

BTW, this DOES creat new jobs. It creates 360 fewer regional jobs and 360 additional mainline jobs.... that is 180+ more Delta captains. On top of all that, those 360 slots will be converted into 400-420+ by conforming to our workrules and staffing requirements. Didn't think of that, did you?


I say again.. this is the first step of many. Let's make this the career that we dreamed of having when we were kids.

Ok ok i just have to say... you are full of sh*t! You flew for the regionals and if it wasn't because you got lucky and apparently are very good at kissing a$$ most likely you would most likely be in the left seat of one of these 70 seaters that make you so sick. You whored yourself out to fly a shinny jet at a regional on mainline routes to try and make it to the majors. You made it to a major and now you criticize and attack the same thing you did just 3 years ago. ******************************ee!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I critcized and attacked those 70 seaters while I was there, too...along with the people who salivated over them.

 

[flap operator]

Peanuckle... I'm sorry man, but YOU have no clue as to what standards XJ or OH hires at. Unless you are involved in XJ, OH or any other hiring, you have no idea. I can only speak for XJ and you are so off base with your apparent knowledge on our hiring process. I don't exactly know what insight you have in the XJ process, but I assure you, it involved way more than you seem to believe.

You simply cannot come on here and honestly tell me you know how the hiring process works at XJ or any other airline. It amazes me that you spent all of 3 short years at Pinnacle and now somehow you're some kind of guru on all things regional and a grizzled mainliner. Your dads years don't count. You were at Pinnacle. Different from Mesaba, different from Comair. Different from Delta.

There are definitely great reasons to make the case you're making with CPZ. Just leave behind all the sanctimonious, patronizing and insulting BS that is mixed in with the facts that have meat. That's all I'm saying.

Oh... yea... Compass pilots have a non voting representative within the DAL MEC. They sure do have a voice. They just can't speak.

 

[Tristar]

Beats working in a cubicle or being a CFI.
Money can't buy you happiness. But the view from FL 350 can make you very happy.

Yeah, but it can't pay your mortgage, put your kids through college, or provide for your retirement. I understand the attraction for kids out of puppy mills to take these jobs (when they were available), but continuing to allow ever bigger airplanes to be flown on what should be mainline routes just further erodes the entire profession.

It's not anti-regional, it's pro-professional pilot career. Everyone in this industry needs to move up in pay and benefits, and that will never happen with half a dozen regionals all being whipsawed against each other. It's well past time for "regional flying" to return to being true regional flying, and grow the mainlines so everyone in the industry can advance (and if you want to stay at the regionals, great - but you deserve to make a decent living for doing so).

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

What does my dad have to do with this?

And OK, I'm finally ready to admit it. The XJ interview is more stringent than any interview out there.


In seriousness, the whole premise of this came from me suggesting brand scope and bringing all the pilots on with them. I was fighting for you guys...still am. After all, DAL got some fruitcakes from the Northeast guys, which had very different hiring standards. There is still some history there and selling that to the masses will be a very tough sell. Most interviews these days are quite similar in what they are looking at/for... the difference is the level that is considered passing.

 

[flap operator]

The compass pilot group is basically made up of refugees from other airlines. Some of those other airlines are ones within the DCI family. Those people were hired at let's say... Comair or Mesaba at one point. Those people were then hired at Compass, after being lucky enough to get through the stringent uphill battle in what some are calling their NWA interview. Even more shocking... there are ex- Mesaba pilots who were outright hired at DL before you and WITH you! I know, shocking.

My question is this: they were good enough for OH/XJ, then were good enough for CP, now they're good enough for DAL. But the rest of us at OH, XJ et al aren't?

I get the premise... I just think you're under estimating the screening process and interview process at airline other than Compass. Wow.. the passing level is different. That's patronizing, thanks.

FYI - less than 20% of all applicants at XJ got an interview and of those that did interview, more than half were turned away.

This isn't a pissing match for whose airline is better. It's about the condescending, patronizing and arrogant attitude that is exuding from this whole issue.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Guys, this has nothing to do with the fact that you are good enough. We all know you will be my Captain over here at DAL. Give it a rest. I understand that you are miffed that we are focusing on CPZ and not OH and XJ. There are reasons for that. They are the reasons that made CPZ become a real entity in the first place. Ask the NWA guys how hard they fought to keep CPZ as close as possible. We are fighting to keep these rights. If we are successful it benefits everyone at a DCI carrier. It may take four to eight years but it will.

On another note. CPZ guys do have a voice. They are members of the LEC's in their respective bases. They can run for any office, put up any resolution that at DAL guys or gal can. They are in effect DALPA members to the fullest. It makes sense that we fight to give them a seniority number to go along with their union rights.
If it were not set up this way, we would be doing this under a different auspice, and you would be named in the resolution.
Read the resolution. It does not exclude you for a reason. If our MEC chooses to include you we are not going to limit them. This is a fact finding mission. When the facts are in, we will have the answers and direction we are going in.
Talk to your LEC reps, get educated on the Ford-Cooksey settlement with ALPA national. You fly a CRJ series jet it applies to you. Also, ask them who filed the suit, and what pit falls that suit brings to bringing you on in part or whole. There is where your issue lies. It is hard fact, and politics pay a huge roll in this. The politics are not favoring you in D.C..

I will do everything I can to get you what you demand us DALPA guys give to you, but you need to do your homework. Educate yourself on the issues, and how they effect this process. Then see how CPZ differs. They are the only ALPA carrier flying the E-series jet. They vote in their own MEC and the game changes, for the worse. Currently putting those jets on the list does not conflict with the Ford Cookesy settlement. It is not that it is a better jet. It is about winning a first major step in bringing flying back to mainline.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And do not forget that WE have first hand experience and knowledge of the regional and mainline interview processes. We are not taking a whack at you, we are just telling you like it is.

Hate that it is getting you so upset. Apply and go though the process next time and you will understand.

 

[flap operator]

Ok - I buy the differences that are apparent between CPZ and OH/XJ. I get the baby steps issue and the issue that this is a starting point. These are all givens, based on the structure of the entity and how Compass came to be during the NWA bankruptcy.

My beef is this: Just stick to the facts that carry weight! Give up on all the BS that Compass pilots are pre-screened NWA pilots, are more qualified, are PICs, ATPs, their training is better yadda yadda yadda. If you truly are fighting for the rest of us and this is indeed just a starting point, don't insult the rest of us with the arrogance and patronizing reasons to start with CPZ! It's doing nobody a favor. My other beef is that everyone is so caught up with JET scope and capturing jet flying. Shouldn't you want ALL flying? Even large t-props?

Further... what makes you think DL mgmt want to cram 88 seats into that thing anyhow? All those trans pacific and trans atlantic flights are filled with people that BUY those Biz-Elite seats. How do you think they get to MSP, DTW, MEM, JFK, CVG, ATL, SLC and all the gateways? On mainline and DCI planes with a FC cabin is how. Whoever flies the large RJs, it doesn't matter, DL mgmt is going to want FC seats for their bread and butter full fare business class people.

edit - AC you had me for a moment, until you added your last post regarding the interviewing etc... You just don't get it. Quit the arrogant, you shoulda applied and you'd know attitude. If it doesn't have anything to do with it... why then did you feel the need to add a whole new post on the issue? Again, just stick to the facts that will help you with your cause and knock it off with the arrogance.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well if you want to get in to the legal side of it. They have flow though rights per their contract. They were screened by NWA to make sure that they had a say when they could. These said CPZ pilots will come to DAL off of probation. IE full fledged DAL pilots. That is huge.
Moreover. The did not sign any sort of contract that nullifies these rights to a seniority number prior to being flowed up. That is huge. They, today have rights to numbers on our list. That is night and day different than any other flow that has ever existed. This included the express jet flow as they signed a contract making these flow rights null and void prior to being allowed to flow. Get that?

Also, I am not giving you this argument in the first person. These are the issues that DAL management has mentioned in passing. They want people to be vetted by a mainline entity. I am not saying that you are not qualified, I am telling you that the process over here is night and day different. We do not give people a sim ride. We know that you can fly. It is about your thinking process. How you deal with people. The issues associated with regional pilots and their flying skills went away in the 90's. We in the eyes of DAL HR and Flt Ops are now just as good of pilots as our military counterparts. There is no more quality control issue. Add to that if you suck as a pilot and made it though the regional ranks with that not being found out, they will fire you in training. I have seen it happen more than once. Have a bad attitude, you are gone. There are no excuses here. They know they have 12K+ pilots looking for your job.
I am not saying our interview is better, easier, tougher, or trickier that yours. What I am saying is that it finds a certain individual. I can tell you that 95% of the time they are dead on, 4% are close and 1% just plain get through. Anger does not work well on this side of the isle. It is managements job to hire pilots, It will be up to them to take you if we agree to re scope the flying. 99.9% of the time they will as they do not want to fight the union.
It is not arrogance. I was in your shoes buddy, I know what it takes to get here. I know what they are and are not looking for. Just ask around. I am not bsing you. I am telling it to you straight as I can. I am not in to arrogance. I would say that on any given day 85% of regional guys can pass a mainline interview. I think you can agree with that.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/wtf_pictures-macho-macho-t1.jpg?w=375&h=500

If you were wondering if you were good enough to pass the DAL interview, this is a picture of myself after completing the most difficult part of the testing portion in the process.


ACL65 did hit the nail on the head, though.

 

[MCOE175]

It took me a few days to hear back from my family and friends that are pilots at DAL and NW. They are saying compass will never be intergrated. Its not worth it and many of the Senior guys at NW and DAL don't want anything to do with it...

Sounds like its time for this topic to end.

Good Luck though... If it does work out then good for all.

 

[Flybet3]

Yeah, but it can't pay your mortgage, put your kids through college, or provide for your retirement.

I think it's funny that some of the same people that say this "put your kids through college" are usually the same ones that give sh** to an Embry riddle grad for having his "rich mommy and daddy" pay for all their school.
How about teaching your kids to work hard for their sh*t and earn some scholarships? Especially if they want to be a doctor or follow in their daddy's retarded a$$ foot steps!

 

[kf4amu]

I think it's funny that some of the same people that say this "put your kids through college" are usually the same ones that give sh** to an Embry riddle grad for having his "rich mommy and daddy" pay for all their school.
How about teaching your kids to work hard for their sh*t and earn some scholarships? Especially if they want to be a doctor or follow in their daddy's retarded a$$ foot steps!

Or better yet, if you really want to go to Riddle, work there full time and get free tuition plus a salary. Graduate 3 years later with 0 debt and a lot of work experience...which equals good letters of recommendation and probably a lot more respect than someone who got it given to them from a trust fund, or took down 100k in loans.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree that of you go to ERAU, go get the business degree. It is better to go to a four year liberal arts college, and then get your certs.
Now there are connections that ERAU has that only Prude, Auburn, and UND have. So there is a benefit to go there. Just do not do you cert work there. Do the 400 level sim stuff and that is it. Save about 60K.

 

[Tristar]

I think it's funny that some of the same people that say this "put your kids through college" are usually the same ones that give sh** to an Embry riddle grad for having his "rich mommy and daddy" pay for all their school.
How about teaching your kids to work hard for their sh*t and earn some scholarships? Especially if they want to be a doctor or follow in their daddy's retarded a$$ foot steps!

I beg your pardon?

I would not pay for one of my kids to go to ERAU because I don't think it is worthwhile. You get a degree from a university which has essentially no standing outside of aviation. I would do what I can to help my kids through a "regular" university (preferably in a field of study with broad application) - personally I value education and if I could help them come out without a huge debt I think that would be a plus. Sorry if that offends you.

And for the record (not that it's any of your damn business), I am encouraging them to work hard and get good grades so they can get scholarships. They'll need them since with the continued erosion of this industry I most likely WON'T be able to help them as much as I'd like to.

Does ERAU produce a decent pilot? Yes. Better than anywhere else? No, based on what I've seen they are within the bell curve of many other schools. I take issue with people putting too much stock in the suposed cachet of the name, when in fact all they are doing is paying a premium price for an average product.

I basically agree with what I think AC is saying - except I think you would be MUCH better served getting a business degree from any of a number of state or liberal arts schools (and saving money in the process) and getting your ratings on the side.

Now back to the actual topic of the thread - I take issue with ever more flying moving from the mainlines to the regionals. I stand by my statement of around 20 years ago that the key to scope was to bring everything possible to the mainline, not the other way around. As far as I'm concerned, 19 seaters with Brand X painted on the side or codesharing should be brought onto the mainline. As was previously pointed out, doing so ultimately creates more jobs, with better work rules and pay. This drives the compensation level for the entire industry higher, so maybe I can make enough to not have to eat cat food when I retire.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Amen. I agree with that and will do what I can to make it possible.

 

[xjhawk]

i have finished the first page, I am not reading anymore. Someone spouted off about $25 an hour.....yeah blame that one on the pilots.....you and everyone else who hates low paid pilot are idiots. Who is at fault.....the business who does what they can to make a buck? Or the Union (ALPA) who has done NOTHING to prevent such things from happening? Listen, I am sure ALPA spent millions fighting the age 65 rule, then when the cause was lost, they jumped on board- I am so proud of ALPA.

Why not fight the good fight, start with quality of life for the junior members of our profession. It would be easy enough to say....set a bar for pay on a per seat basis...

what will ALPA's next "bad" fight be when there is so many good ones out there.

set a "by this date" you will have this pay or your main line shuts down. One National contract per brand name.....easy enough. that was sarcasm.....