121 Outsourced Dispather

[A330Driver]

Ok, you are not going to believe this. My 121 company is seriously considering outsourcing all dispatching....Can they do this?

I have looked all over, but cannot find a regulatory reference that prohibits them from doing this.

Could anyone please provide any insight (preferably regulatory e.g. FAR, Legal interpratations, etc) so that I can through this on my DO's desk and laugh.


Fraternally

 

[homerjdispatch]

what company?

 

[A330Driver]

prefer not to say

 

[RVSM]

Only if the Feds sign off on it.
Your OPSPECs defines who what where and how.
Keep us posted. I really want to know how this turns out.
I also really want to know what carrier but I can wait

 

[SKC]

Our airline thought briefly about that in the late 90s, but decided against it due to financial reasons (amazingly).

 

[homerjdispatch]

Spirit?

 

[homerjdispatch]

oops posted twice

 

[405]

Ok, you are not going to believe this. My 121 company is seriously considering outsourcing all dispatching.

Yeah, I do believe it. I say let 'em do it. All of these airline senior management "teams" would rather save a few bucks than run a safe airline. I hope it bites them in the ass.

 

[clr4theapch]

Private dispatch firms

Only if the Feds sign off on it.
Your OPSPECs defines who what where and how.
Keep us posted. I really want to know how this turns out.
I also really want to know what carrier but I can wait

This is only part of the problem...but it is not impossible to overcome if an airline wants to through enough money at it, which is the problem..

I know about 5 years ago, 4 out of work dispatchers put together there own SOC complete with NavTec, Flt. Explorer, WSI and Jeppesen for rnwy analysis..set up a server to send release and maintain records...they had some pretty big backing, and were going after High end Corporate customer with hopes to one day performing contract 121 work...

The story goes, they made their pitch to the FAA to perform 135 and 121 flight planning, and flight following, according to them the FAA was impressed with the capabilities of the operation and the premis looked promising, however the real problem came when the "whos responsible" questions started being asked, and how it would be enforced in the event of an incident or accident.... A contract between the two was not considered enough of an guarantee for the FAA's liking, and complicated things.

So the FAA came back as being unprepared to address out sourced dispatch at that time, stating that many regulations would have to be added or amended to address operational control between an 121 operation and it's employee pilot in command, not to mention records maintenance and FAA compliance with training requirements of dispatchers and how they would be listed in an OPS SPEC as a non-employee of the certifcated operation.

In the end, for the FAA to approve a private firm to dispatch for an 121 operation many legal connections must be addressed in the FAR's then each airline would have to fork over the cost of amending their ops Spec outlining how this contract work would satisfy the new REGS and maintain the same level of safety and record keeping.. Very expensive and lengthy process.

I have no heard anything on this subject since those days...but certainly alot has changed since those days and management is always looking for better and cheaper ways to do business, possibly they have been working with the FAA on such details for awhile, who knows but them.... it will be interesting to see where this one goes for sure.

 

[Ohh Porterhouse]

prefer not to say

Come on you can tell us.

 

[wms]

Ok, you are not going to believe this. My 121 company is seriously considering outsourcing all dispatching....Can they do this?

I have looked all over, but cannot find a regulatory reference that prohibits them from doing this.

Could anyone please provide any insight (preferably regulatory e.g. FAR, Legal interpratations, etc) so that I can through this on my DO's desk and laugh.


Fraternally

Not so unbelievable. Listen to this!

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.info/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,4/Itemid,61.html

 

[hoover]

By regulation, the certficate holder is responsible for operational control, which we all know means the exercise of authority over initiating, conducting, or terminating a flight. But the actual flight planning is a joint process between the Captain and an authorized dispatcher, and to the best of my knowledge there is nothing that says that the authorized dispatcher has to be an employee of the certificate holder. All the air carrier has to do is satisfy the FAA that operational control is being maintained.

 

[propsarebest]

By regulation, the certficate holder is responsible for operational control, which we all know means the exercise of authority over initiating, conducting, or terminating a flight. But the actual flight planning is a joint process between the Captain and an authorized dispatcher, and to the best of my knowledge there is nothing that says that the authorized dispatcher has to be an employee of the certificate holder. All the air carrier has to do is satisfy the FAA that operational control is being maintained.

Our ops specs say that all of that is done at a specific address, so, unless they "import" a bunch of people from Calcutta, it ain't gonna happen here.

 

[wms]

Our ops specs say that all of that is done at a specific address, so, unless they "import" a bunch of people from Calcutta, it ain't gonna happen here.

Ops specs can be changed in a simple revision. If it's not in a contract, it can't be stopped.

 

[shooter]

Is anyone going to say what airline this is or what company would be doing the releases? Or will this stay an ops specs lesson?

 

[Ohh Porterhouse]

Doubt it

 

[shooter]

got it....USA3000

 

[rvsm410]

Here is the NEW Jeppesen propsal to the FAA

Ok I was asked by clr4theapch to comment....I was staying away from this one since I was on of the original 4 in 2001 that started looking into this possibility as we were all on furlough at the time....

As clr4 said, we had converted a house into to a OCC, with wall screen, flight explorer, Jep rnwy, a 121 aprvd flight planning system, 4 desks and a full reference library etc.... for all intents and purposes, we could have and had the ability to plan and release aircraft, in fact we did so with corporate jets flying under part 91 for trials.... the regs were the biggie..

We ran into a hugh brick wall with a nice big red bow around it...it was going to take alot more horse power than all of us could pull together even with the backing we had....but the idea and plans moved on and have been under wraps with Jeppesen for a while..only till this month it has been flying around under the radar...

Here is the link to their proposal with the FAA and is being worked very hard with the money of Boeing behind them!...this will probably happen in the next 2 to 3 years for sure.... LINK: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MF4NRh...act Dispatching Proposal.ppt#318,1,Discussion of FAA Policy Regarding Contract Dispatch Services


PS its a power point presentation..its safe to open...

 

[rvsm410]

Contract dispatching link

See if this works.... it will take you to a small file download to open the Jep Presentation..

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MF4NRh...act Dispatching Proposal.ppt#318,1,Discussion

 

[homerjdispatch]

linky no worky!

 

[shooter]

great, thats all we need... trying to outsource our jobs. Where is the ADF to kill this mutant creature before all our jobs are eaten by the "we can do it cheaper" machine.:angryfire

 

[RVSM]

It would be interesting to hear if the ADF has an opinion on this issue.

 

[rvsm410]

Sorry about the link....I found it on another web site as a file and copid the link here, I forgot its a password protected web site, I have it downloaded to my pc, but dont know how to upload it here...its a power point presentation..any ideas how to get it here? Cut and Paste is too big....Geez

 

[rvsm410]

If you want to read and download the presentation file, its located on this long standing Dispatch web site linked below..you will have to register to join the club and be accepted by the club owners...
I cant find this file anywhere on Jep or other internet searches....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/airlinedispatchercentral/

 

[RVSM]

This has some serious negative consequences for existing dispatcher offices if ever gets approval. Imagine your next contract negotiation when management says Jepp will do the job for X, you guys are going to have to take to a paycut to Y otherwise we are going to go with Jepp for our OC needs.
Better yet 5 years down the road after they outsource our jobs to JEPP they decide that haji in India can do the job for Z and they outsource the outsourcing!
This is not good for our industry

 

[rvsm410]

Just a quick note, I understand the concern: But When we came up with this plan in 2001, our business model was amied directed at 135 operations with VIP corporate jet customers, different than fracs...somewhere in between 135 with a 121 flair that added operational control via a contract between us and the customers.

As to the 121 side of things, I doubt this is going to move very fast, maybe 3 years, but when it does, I would think that your unions should be addressing this in new contracts negociations, whereby lests say the current company dispatchers get priority hiring at Jep for there respective airlines on work that Jep takes on.
Just an Idea, be proactive in this approach and attack this problem before it bits everyone in the Arse...

We all know the direction of the industry is to do it cheaper faster bla bla bla....and if management has anything to say about it, and they do, out- sourcing an entire department for less dollars will be looked at hard...this is not to say that dispatchers working at Jep will be be making less, they might even make more than they do now, I would hope so..that should be worked into the union agreements as well.., flight benefits etc....

JMHO....Good luck..

 

[shooter]

, I would think that your unions should be addressing this in new contracts negociations, whereby lests say the current company dispatchers get priority hiring at Jep for there respective airlines on work that Jep takes on.
Just an Idea, be proactive in this approach and attack this problem before it bits everyone in the Arse...

contract dont mean squat when you are out the door. look at the NW mech's. There is no way a union contract will prevent it from happening if the company wants it in. The union AND its members will be out on the street.

This thing needs to die on the vine and fast.

and RVSM is right...just a matter of time before Apu is working the flights.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Just a quick note, I understand the concern: But When we came up with this plan in 2001, our business model was amied directed at 135 operations with VIP corporate jet customers, different than fracs...somewhere in between 135 with a 121 flair that added operational control via a contract between us and the customers.

As to the 121 side of things, I doubt this is going to move very fast, maybe 3 years, but when it does, I would think that your unions should be addressing this in new contracts negociations, whereby lests say the current company dispatchers get priority hiring at Jep for there respective airlines on work that Jep takes on.
Just an Idea, be proactive in this approach and attack this problem before it bits everyone in the Arse...

We all know the direction of the industry is to do it cheaper faster bla bla bla....and if management has anything to say about it, and they do, out- sourcing an entire department for less dollars will be looked at hard...this is not to say that dispatchers working at Jep will be be making less, they might even make more than they do now, I would hope so..that should be worked into the union agreements as well.., flight benefits etc....

JMHO....Good luck..

Hope you are proud of your work to bring the industry down....

 

[RVSM]

I think the idea of bringing 121 dispatch standards into 135 / corporate operations was a good idea. Unfortunately now someone thinks they see a short term profit generating tool in the 121 operations that will in the long term hurt our industry. If these changes are approved and the FAA allows contract Domestic and Flag dispatching the only thing that might keep them from raiding existing 121 dispatch operations would be if the Jepp guys unionize.

Another thought occurs to me, If this goes through JEPP has a ready trained pool of scab workers ready to go should any union think self help is a serious option.

 

[rvsm410]

Just as expected from you Homer

You sure are consistant....You really think I set out in 2001 to ruin the dispatch industry? Jerk , I wrote how things went down then exactly....further, with all the outsourcing going on everywhere, do you really think this idea would have stayed under the radar..Oh please...replacing dispatchers is not a new idea, for that matter, replacing anything with cheaper costs is the standard, right, wrong or indifferent...

But Homer, I have to say, since you have been so totaly obtuse with me and the opinions of others here for years... it would be a pleasure to see your a$$ replaced at Skywest with some young kid out of school working for Jeppesen..if it happens, so be it for you pal...

I don't have a dog in this hunt anymore, I am not in dispatch, not working for any airline, dont intend to return, I'm doing just fine down here charter fishing now for 2 +years. I only posted at the request from a buddy that is still dispatching armed with this news from Jeppesen, he knew of my efforts in 2001 and asked if I would comment here as INFORMATION TO HELP as he is concerned as well.

BUT NOOOO, Homer to the rescue, you probabaly have the same attitude there at work as you regularly express here, I'm sure your loved.. and you must be proud!
Since you adopted the name I sarcasticly gave you years ago "gods gift to dispatch" you should include that you are truly "THE embarrassment of the profession"

Good luck to those here that can see past this tired old BS between homer and I. I could never get a word in edgewise with out his attacks, Pathic.

I hope the dispatchers can work this out possibly together and if nothing else, participate in molding the outcome of this plan or head if off at the pass completly, somehow. I have a deep respect for the dispatch profession, I still feel you guys/gals are the unsung hero's of the airline industry, I thought it better to have a warning of the comming storm and prepare, than to get blind sided and unable to effect any impact....

I am out of here....GL