Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Nov 1st NJA? whats up???

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
BORG said:
He's referring to the potential bargaining away of our recall rights and/or longevity in order to achieve pay raises for the active group all while we can't vote.

If that occurs, whatever "better contract" is in place is irrelevant for us.
Click to expand...

You have no evidence to support that statement but thanks for playing. Never mind. This is FI so evidence is not required.
 
BORG said:
"You have no evidence to support that statement but thanks for playing. Never mind. This is FI so evidence is not required."

Pot meet kettle...
Click to expand...

You don't know me and I don't know you so the reality is you do not know what information I have or where I got it.
 
JustPlaneTruth said:
You don't know me and I don't know you so the reality is you do not know what information I have or where I got it.
Click to expand...


I think it's safe to say that there is precedent for a senior group selling out a junior group - especially when the junior guys and gals have no voice or vote.

It's hard to imagine you have ANY information that would ensure this won't happen to the furloughed NJA pilots - especially when I run into some of my active brothers that are unaware that NJA has furloughees on the street...
 
BORG said:
I think it's safe to say that there is precedent for a senior group selling out a junior group - especially when the junior guys and gals have no voice or vote.

It's hard to imagine you have ANY information that would ensure this won't happen to the furloughed NJA pilots - especially when I run into some of my active brothers that are unaware that NJA has furloughees on the street...
Click to expand...

In order for the senior guys to sell out on the junior guys it would have to be presented to the pilot group to a vote which means the leadership would have to release the CBA to a vote. Not one of the current leadership is going to release any CBA to a vote (with an endorsement) that contains the creation of a second class group of active pilots (after recall).

The CBA being negotiated will take a number of years to finish and given the current under staffing level it is reasonable, given the current ops tempo and growth, that many if not all the pilots will be offered recall. Those that accept recall will get to vote.
 
I would surges a massive email and call campaign to the Eboard about them including the 495 screwed club in every email they send. Every Friday they remind folks we are on the street.

We can complain to each other and them this way!

How about it. ???

EVERYONE send emails
 
JustPlaneTruth said:
In order for the senior guys to sell out on the junior guys it would have to be presented to the pilot group to a vote which means the leadership would have to release the CBA to a vote. Not one of the current leadership is going to release any CBA to a vote (with an endorsement) that contains the creation of a second class group of active pilots (after recall).



The CBA being negotiated will take a number of years to finish and given the current under staffing level it is reasonable, given the current ops tempo and growth, that many if not all the pilots will be offered recall. Those that accept recall will get to vote.
Click to expand...


That all sounds good, but one union leader's opinion is only an opinion, not fact.

Please reference the furloughed side of the NJASAP forum for detailed information on this...
 
av8trinabarrel said:
Recall rights negotiated away with a new contract.
Click to expand...

I would be very surprised if we had a contract negotiated before the recall. First vote is at least 2 years away IMO.

Also are you sure the company would even want that?

If they need to hire, why wouldn't they wan to keep the people they already hired?

If I were the company ... I would want junior pay higher and senior pay lower... in view of the possibility of strong pilot hiring at airlines
 
gunfyter said:
Also are you sure the company would even want that?

If they need to hire, why wouldn't they wan to keep the people they already hired?
Click to expand...

What pay level is the most junior guy on furlough at and where would they come back into the pay scale? My guess is the company figures it's cheaper to have a bunch of new-hires on year 1 pay. Amortize out the cost of initial training over a few years, which really is just a reallocation of funds under Uncle Warren's umbrella, and the reduced salary pays for the additional cost.

No dog in this particular fight, just trying to stay abreast of industry happenings...
 
It would be cheaper if there were people to hire. Why would I go to NJA when you need 2500 hours when the airlines only need 1500? I believe they need to keep the pay up for the junior pilots

There are current f/o's leaving or trying to leave for airlines
 
Last edited:
gunfyter said:
It would be cheaper if there were people to hire. Why would I go to NJA when you need 2500 hours when the airlines only need 1500? I believe they need to keep the pay up for the junior pilots

There are current f/o's leaving or trying to leave for airlines
Click to expand...

I hear ya. We've got senior captains leaving as well....and many more trying.
 
gunfyter said:
I would be very surprised if we had a contract negotiated before the recall. First vote is at least 2 years away IMO.

Also are you sure the company would even want that?

If they need to hire, why wouldn't they wan to keep the people they already hired?

If I were the company ... I would want junior pay higher and senior pay lower... in view of the possibility of strong pilot hiring at airlines
Click to expand...

No disrespect, but are you kidding?!?!? Why would the company want to pay me and my fellow f-lows 8 year pay and growing when they can get 1st year guys to do the same job for a fraction of the pay?
I highly doubt the lawyer and his team care what the airlines are doing. We are a dime a dozen in their eyes.
 
The lowest FO would come back at year 6 pay. Also one of the eboard even said one time that the current furlough guys would keep their recall rights under the old CBA and new hires would fall under any new CBA recall rights. Reading between the lines he is basically saying they would consider a "B scale of recall rights" just like they did for bases in the 2005 CBA. Sure 5 bases is fine as long as we all get to keep our 200 bases. I would not be shocked at all to be sold down the river for a .01 percent raise. NetJets will never have a shortage of qualified applicants. If you think there are not thousands of guys (always will be) with 2500 hours who would love to work there you have no clue of the current pilot market.
 
Last edited:
The pay difference between a first year guy and top of the pay scale is about $20K. For every 100 pilots returning ... thats $2 million. Plus they have to go through the hassle of screening and hiring ....

So $2 million spread between say 1000 active pilots... is $2K.


I am going to sell your seniority for $2K?

That is about what you are talking about. Because if 300 return and there are almost 3000 active the proportions are similar so $2K per active guy if we were base enough to sell you out.

It kind of hurts my feelings that you think I would sell you out for any amount.
 
BentOver said:
No offense Gunfyter, but you are really out of touch with the current market.
Click to expand...

I think the market is about to change. We will see. Every time we get to the point where it seems a pilot shortage will force wages up ... something happens. 911, market crashes ....
 
Another way to look at the cost of returning furloughed pilots with the proper seniority vs year 1 new hires:

If the pay difference averages $20K... and there is about 1 furloughed pilot per aircraft on the property....

Then we are talking $20K per airplane cost. I do not think it is significant enough for the company to want it.
 
gunfyter said:
The pay difference between a first year guy and top of the pay scale is about $20K. For every 100 pilots returning ... thats $2 million. Plus they have to go through the hassle of screening and hiring ....

So $2 million spread between say 1000 active pilots... is $2K.


I am going to sell your seniority for $2K?

That is about what you are talking about. Because if 300 return and there are almost 3000 active the proportions are similar so $2K per active guy if we were base enough to sell you out.

It kind of hurts my feelings that you think I would sell you out for any amount.
Click to expand...

No offense to you but the pilot group has already demonstrated the ability to do just that.
 
JustPlaneTruth said:
I will gladly look at your list. Please provide it.
Click to expand...

Go ahead and look for the last time any mention of the furloughees was made in a union publication toward the active pilots. The 495 are now out of sight and out of mind to the active group. We can't even get an honorable mention in a yearly review, even though the flight attendants did make it into the communication. ALPA, for its faults, would never allow something like that to happen.
 
t-bone said:
I hear ya. We've got senior captains leaving as well....and many more trying.
Click to expand...

In the last 12 months we've had the active pilot list shrink by 36 pilots, for an annual attrition rate of 1.4%.
 
imacdog said:
Go ahead and look for the last time any mention of the furloughees was made in a union publication toward the active pilots. The 495 are now out of sight and out of mind to the active group. We can't even get an honorable mention in a yearly review, even though the flight attendants did make it into the communication. ALPA, for its faults, would never allow something like that to happen.
Click to expand...


To add to this - when I was furloughed from an ALPA carrier I maintained access to the web board until the airline ceased to exist.

Evidently NJASAP has legal concerns about our access to the board that other pilot unions don't share.

Or maybe the union leader accidentally told the truth when he said he was glad we didn't have access because of all the problems we'd cause...
 
gunfyter said:
The pay difference between a first year guy and top of the pay scale is about $20K.
Click to expand...


Not sure where that number comes from...but if it's accurate or even in the ballpark, it wouldn't take long to cover the cost of initial training with the savings in salary over of the long run with someone on year 1 pay vs year 6 and up. And for every year after that, the company continues to save. I hope those guys all get called back, but it's pretty easy to see why the company would be willing to offer alternative proposals.
 
imacdog said:
In the last 12 months we've had the active pilot list shrink by 36 pilots, for an annual attrition rate of 1.4%.
Click to expand...


I believe we're at 44 gone out of 220 for 2013. And finally our CEO has stated that he is unhappy with that level of attrition and they have started to loosen the purse strings, albeit slowly.
 
imacdog said:
Go ahead and look for the last time any mention of the furloughees was made in a union publication toward the active pilots. The 495 are now out of sight and out of mind to the active group.
Click to expand...

Please don't judge the views of the active pilot group by what is printed in -- or omitted from -- those publications. Quite a lot of us think about you guys every tour. One fairly senior guy was talking with me today, and said that he thinks people are going to bail left and right to the major airlines as the quality of life degrades and the negotiations drag on. He said, and I quote, "We're going to lose some great people, and that's after we already lost 495 of our best."

I'd be very surprised if any of us is interested in degrading anyone's contractual rights. We're looking to improve the whole package for all of us, you included, into a mature contract. I have no idea how long it will take, but I won't vote "yes" until it's done right.
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom