Psa ta

[CoATP]

typo? or the agreement?
"o First Officer longevity pay is capped at 4 years of service or the pilot’s actual years of service, whichever is greater."

If the agreement then no cap asi read it.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I think they're alluding to a variation of a "B-scale."

i.e. F/O pay is capped at year 4, unless you're already past it. Instead of saying, if you're hired after X date, you'll never make more than $X/hr.

 

[JustaNumber]

Pilots are in the business of Threat and Error Management, which means you should always be looking for the worst case scenario.

So let's say you're a PSA FO, who just wants to get some PIC time and/or move on. Your worthless union presents you with this POS deal, and tells you there'll be new airplanes, upgrades galore, and guaranteed mainline interviews. What's not to like?

Please consider all the ways you could be screwed by the fine print. They deliver one new airframe by the deadline, then cancel the remaining orders. Or, they take delivery of all 30, and promptly send all the 200's to the desert. So no upgrades.

Then, they announce a single class of a whopping 300 people at mainline. Of these, only four will be PSA guys. Nevertheless, they line up 300 PSA pilots for interviews, and fail 296 of them. This is repeated in month 2, and now every PSA pilot has their pay frozen for the next 10 years. Amazingly, the new hire classes get cancelled anyway, but the damage is done.

What's that, you can't see airline managements colluding to exploit contract loopholes? Especially when mainline would benefit financially from screwing you over?

If this thing passes, I would be wary of flying on PSA due to an obvious display of poor Threat/Error Management skills.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Why are these TAs even being "TAed"? What's wrong with the PSA MEC? Can we name some names so people know who's behind this crap?

Go ahead, pull the trigger guys-- you'll get what you deserve. Pay caps and the sound of a giant flushing toilet. Take that home to the kids and put it on the table.

 

[CFIT]

[FONT=&quot]Lastly, we are stunned by the lack of resistance exhibited from ALPA’s national officers, with the sole exception of Vice President of Administration and Eagle Captain Bill Couette. Our National Leadership has not led the way in this effort to “Stop the Whipsaw”.[/FONT]

Is any body really surprised?

Nooooooo, there's no conflict of interest.....

The new pattern bargaining norm?

 

[BOX OFFICE]

What ALPA is doing to the regional carriers is disappointing. They don't seem to realize that a huge pay gap only increases outsourcing pressure on us.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Larger RJs and more or less a promised job. They'll take it. Not wise to mess with your wholly owning major. Look at comair

Laughable coming from Hulas's expert goat rimmer. Why don't you go back to licking your nuts, it's the only thing you can do well.

 

[Nevets]

What ALPA is doing to the regional carriers is disappointing. They don't seem to realize that a huge pay gap only increases outsourcing pressure on us.

ALPA created what the regionals are now by being too good or thinking its too costly for them to keep the jets at mainline. No one to look at other than the pilots at each major when they decided not to scope their own brand. Oh well.

 

[WSurf]

Maybe we should all be to the point that we don't gives a crap what anyone does anymore!! I think I'm over it.......... Screw it... Votes yes!!!

Hell it will be fun to see what happens!

 

[Azul]

If these guys vote this pos in, there should be an informal ban on psa pilots at the majors. Don't recommend anyone from psa, blackball any applicant from psa. Then maybe then the regional industry will understand the ramifications of thier actions. If they don't look at their airline as just a stepping stone then maybe the industry might be worth half a damn.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

Let's not rush anything, boys and girls. Your vote represents the preservation of your current compensation and work rules. If you willingly relinquish that compensation and contractual work rules protection, then you are simply a fool. It's like the elders used to say, a fool and his money are soon parted. Do you really want to be a component of ancient axioms?

 

[JustaNumber]

If these guys vote this pos in, there should be an informal ban on psa pilots at the majors. Don't recommend anyone from psa, blackball any applicant from psa. Then maybe then the regional industry will understand the ramifications of thier actions. If they don't look at their airline as just a stepping stone then maybe the industry might be worth half a damn.

You don't understand that a crap contract like this is welcomed by the Majors pilots, as our low pay subsidizes their high pay. They don't WANT to "fix" the situation, and so will be more than happy to hire guys from every bottom-feeder out there, rationalizing that they (the benevolent Legacy hiring pilots) are "rescuing" these pilots from an unfortunate situation involving an inferior airline. The myopia is astounding.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

You don't understand that a crap contract like this is welcomed by the Majors pilots, as our low pay subsidizes their high pay. They don't WANT to "fix" the situation, and so will be more than happy to hire guys from every bottom-feeder out there, rationalizing that they (the benevolent Legacy hiring pilots) are "rescuing" these pilots from an unfortunate situation involving an inferior airline. The myopia is astounding.

You both have it wrong. Management (HR) hires pilots, not line pilots. And who does management prefer? The pilots who stood their ground, or the pilots who caved? Look at the history of Delta hiring Comair pilots.

As for mainline pilots not wanting to "fix" the "situation" at the regionals, it's not our situation to fix, it's yours. I mean, really, are you suggesting that we should waive a magic and and integrate/staple all regional pilots? Take back all scope in one move. It can't happen.

The only think that's going to fix the race to the bottom is you guys refusing to play that game, and then accepting the consequences. I hate to promote GL, but one of the few things he's right about is that the 717s are going to decimate DCI RJ flying. The regionals are only going to become a bigger blood bath as 50 seaters get parked and the regionals shrink. If you don't have your applications out there, and get yourself ready to bail out, then you're part of the problem.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

You don't understand that a crap contract like this is welcomed by the Majors pilots, as our low pay subsidizes their high pay. They don't WANT to "fix" the situation, and so will be more than happy to hire guys from every bottom-feeder out there, rationalizing that they (the benevolent Legacy hiring pilots) are "rescuing" these pilots from an unfortunate situation involving an inferior airline. The myopia is astounding.

That is correct

 

[JustaNumber]

You both have it wrong. Management (HR) hires pilots, not line pilots. And who does management prefer? The pilots who stood their ground, or the pilots who caved? Look at the history of Delta hiring Comair pilots.

As for mainline pilots not wanting to "fix" the "situation" at the regionals, it's not our situation to fix, it's yours. I mean, really, are you suggesting that we should waive a magic and and integrate/staple all regional pilots? Take back all scope in one move. It can't happen.

The only think that's going to fix the race to the bottom is you guys refusing to play that game, and then accepting the consequences. I hate to promote GL, but one of the few things he's right about is that the 717s are going to decimate DCI RJ flying. The regionals are only going to become a bigger blood bath as 50 seaters get parked and the regionals shrink. If you don't have your applications out there, and get yourself ready to bail out, then you're part of the problem.

Box office, you make some good points but are off-base on others. You're right, management hires pilots, and management prefers pilots who cave. You're also right that the primary fix will ultimately end up being for regional pilots to not put up with this BS, and refuse to fly for what's being offered.

Where you're wrong: pilots ARE still hired by pilots (even if they are management pilots). And most mainline pilots suffer from the myopic belief that a well-compensated regional pilot group is not a good thing. Just about ALL mainline pilots want lower pay at regionals, not higher, and view regional bottom-feeder pilots as just working the system to reach the exalted mainline the fastest--they were the "smart ones."

As far as you saying it's our problem to fix, and not yours, I take great exception to this. The mainline pilot groups CREATED the second-tier regional system, the ultimate B-scale, and they perpetuate it through ALPA National's policies. This is undeniable.

Also saying that someone who doesn't have their applications in (at a "real airline" is what you're implying) is part of the problem, is rather insulting to those pilots who have fought to create a decent career (and a decent airline) out of a bad situation, who are now victims of a malicious mainline management and an apathetic ALPA National response (which is mostly influenced by mainline MEC's).

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Box office, you make some good points but are off-base on others. You're right, management hires pilots, and management prefers pilots who cave. You're also right that the primary fix is for regional pilots to not put up with this BS, and refuse to fly for what's being offered.

Where you're wrong: pilots ARE still hired by pilots (even if they are management pilots). And most mainline pilots suffer from the myopic belief that a well-compensated regional pilot group is not a good thing. Just about ALL mainline pilots want lower pay at regionals, not higher, and view regional bottom-feeder pilots as just working the system to reach the exalted mainline the fastest--they were the "smart ones."

As far as you saying it's our problem to fix, and not yours, I take great exception to this. The mainline pilot groups CREATED the second-tier regional system, the ultimate B-scale, and they perpetuate it through ALPA National's policies. This is undeniable.

Also saying that someone who doesn't have their applications in (at a "real airline" is what you're implying) is rather insulting to those pilots who have fought to create a decent career (and a decent airline) out of a bad situation, who are now victims of a malicious mainline management and an apathetic ALPA National response (which is mostly influenced by mainline MEC's).

You have no idea what "just about ALL" mainline pilots think first of all. Many of us came from the regionals and know what its like. We're sympathetic to your cause, but most of us left because we saw this coming. However, it is true that we have little sympathy for those who chose to stay then whine about the inevitable finally arriving, and blaming everyone but yourself for the situation you now find yourself in. Second, sorry if the truth hurts, but until your airline flies with its own name on the tail, under its own code, you are a subcontractor who operates at the whims of its mainline partner(s).

The regionals are going to shrink out of existence. This is a fact. We are already flying 88s and 319s to cities I used to fly a turboprop to at ASA. If you want to take your chances at your "career" regional, good luck. I think all of the big regionals will eventually go the way of Comair as their airplanes become less and less relevant. The 717s will completely replace the flying your 700s and 900s do, and your 700/900s will be replacing the 200s for a few years. Eventually, the 700/900s will be gone and mainline will either fly to the cities it used to serve or drop them and code share with turboprop feeders like Silver or Great Lakes. I really see the industry heading back to the way it was in the 80s and early 90s.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The regionals are going to shrink out of existence. This is a fact. We are already flying 88s and 319s to cities I used to fly a turboprop to at ASA. If you want to take your chances at your "career" regional, good luck. I think all of the big regionals will eventually go the way of Comair as their airplanes become less and less relevant. The 717s will completely replace the flying your 700s and 900s do, and your 700/900s will be replacing the 200s for a few years. Eventually, the 700/900s will be gone and mainline will either fly to the cities it used to serve or drop them and code share with turboprop feeders like Silver or Great Lakes. I really see the industry heading back to the way it was in the 80s and early 90s.

Um, Delta isn't the only airline on the planet. In fact, it was only a few years ago it was a money-losing turd.

 

[Nevets]

You have no idea what "just about ALL" mainline pilots think first of all. Many of us came from the regionals and know what its like. We're sympathetic to your cause, but most of us left because we saw this coming. However, it is true that we have little sympathy for those who chose to stay then whine about the inevitable finally arriving, and blaming everyone but yourself for the situation you now find yourself in. Second, sorry if the truth hurts, but until your airline flies with its own name on the tail, under its own code, you are a subcontractor who operates at the whims of its mainline partner(s).

The regionals are going to shrink out of existence. This is a fact. We are already flying 88s and 319s to cities I used to fly a turboprop to at ASA. If you want to take your chances at your "career" regional, good luck. I think all of the big regionals will eventually go the way of Comair as their airplanes become less and less relevant. The 717s will completely replace the flying your 700s and 900s do, and your 700/900s will be replacing the 200s for a few years. Eventually, the 700/900s will be gone and mainline will either fly to the cities it used to serve or drop them and code share with turboprop feeders like Silver or Great Lakes. I really see the industry heading back to the way it was in the 80s and early 90s.

Here is one person who hopes you are right.

 

[WSurf]

Simply Put........... Once mainline pilots get a grip on scope and all flying is done by mainline pilots we will all be fine. Sounds good.... I wish that could happen...

 

[labbats]

You have no idea what "just about ALL" mainline pilots think first of all. Many of us came from the regionals and know what its like. We're sympathetic to your cause, but most of us left because we saw this coming. However, it is true that we have little sympathy for those who chose to stay then whine about the inevitable finally arriving, and blaming everyone but yourself for the situation you now find yourself in. Second, sorry if the truth hurts, but until your airline flies with its own name on the tail, under its own code, you are a subcontractor who operates at the whims of its mainline partner(s).

Agree completely.

 

[wms]

Here is one person who hopes you are right.

Ditto

 

[wms]

You have no idea what "just about ALL" mainline pilots think first of all. Many of us came from the regionals and know what its like. We're sympathetic to your cause, but most of us left because we saw this coming. However, it is true that we have little sympathy for those who chose to stay then whine about the inevitable finally arriving, and blaming everyone but yourself for the situation you now find yourself in. Second, sorry if the truth hurts, but until your airline flies with its own name on the tail, under its own code, you are a subcontractor who operates at the whims of its mainline partner(s).

The regionals are going to shrink out of existence. This is a fact. We are already flying 88s and 319s to cities I used to fly a turboprop to at ASA. If you want to take your chances at your "career" regional, good luck. I think all of the big regionals will eventually go the way of Comair as their airplanes become less and less relevant. The 717s will completely replace the flying your 700s and 900s do, and your 700/900s will be replacing the 200s for a few years. Eventually, the 700/900s will be gone and mainline will either fly to the cities it used to serve or drop them and code share with turboprop feeders like Silver or Great Lakes. I really see the industry heading back to the way it was in the 80s and early 90s.

I believe you are right, except I think -700/-900 (just the planes) will be absorbed by mainline due to staffing issues at the regionals. Props may be reduced to 9 seats serving out-lying areas because they are not affected by the 1500 hour rule. The 50 seaters will all but disappear, along with the regional airlines that fly them.

The regional industry will pay the consequences of causing its own staffing issues by treating its employees so badly and discouraging new employees from choosing this profession. The GO will be a dust bowl with a few occ-types and middle managers standing around holding pink slips wondering how it all happened.

 

[Crzipilot]

This will be sold to the pilot group as job security. The leases on the 200's are up in the next 6 years. This is the replacement plan. If they vote no, there will be threats of PSA shutting down.

Boeing just put out an article forecasting half a million pilots needed in the next two decades. US Airways is not the only fish in the sea.

PSA has a strong pilot group. They did vote down the last 900 deal that kept pay rates the same.

It's a matter of not being influenced by scare tactics. Just my opinion.

Which vote are you talking about here?!?! The first 900 vote or the latest one where I believe they voted in the 900 pay rates, while Mesa was in BK. I believe US/Orenstien used those pay rates as the whipsaw against mesa pilots??!?!

The first vote for 900 pay rates were voted down with the help of the J4J guys that were there on property. After they left, looks like PSA voted in their rates with the rally cry......"Just get the airplanes on property, We can fix the pay rates later"

Is this the same strong PSA group that went around PDT and Henson's back in the original RJ agreement?!?!? Is this the same strong PSA group that voted to give their captains 20-30$ pay raises while giving their f/o's 1-2.00 pay raises with the explanation: We are going to get so many planes you won't be there. Oh and don't worry your pay is capped at 7th yr. "

As to the issue being the mainline guys giving away the RJ flying etc etc.....it really is an issue on both sides. Delta guys said it was beneath them to fly the damn things and only wanted "BIG" airplanes. hence comair came in and provided feed at a nice low rate. That of course started the dominos to tumble. Besides that, show me, besides the comair group, and regional where it's pilots have stood up and said, YES we will fly those aircraft....at the same pay and benefits that the Mainline guys would get.

I think that is 0.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

The prognostications will surely change when the prognosticators are declined an offer of employment from their dream legacy carrier.

 

[BoilerUP]

Besides that, show me, besides the comair group, and regional where it's pilots have stood up and said, YES we will fly those aircraft....at the same pay and benefits that the Mainline guys would get.

I think that is 0.

AWAC's 2001 contract was ratified after Comair 2001 and earlier ACA 2001, building on both of them.

Of course concessions were voted in around 2003...and sadly today that contract is near the top of regional industry work rules and 50-seat compensation.

 

[WSurf]

The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few. To bad that doesn't work in the airline industry. Senior folks will always sell out junior guys.

 

[zasca]

A lot of big predictions... Wow...

 

[TCBKING]

This TA will pass by +70%.

 

[Kaman]

This TA will pass by +70%.

Your mileage may vary, but based on my experience at ColPinMesEnd, I think this TA will pass at a narrow margin...Which is even worse, because it will demonstrate how divided the pilot group is. Not a whisper of any future here at EN that I am aware of...other than a letter to S.F. that "we will meet at any time to discuss the future of new airplanes on the property" Sad...

 

[cbrown1]

Are there more large RJs that us airways can give out or is this for the merger that may or may not happen?