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SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article
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scoreboardII
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Culture is what we own, management has no control over that, and they have proven it these past few years.
What your trying to say is our old ways of the one LUV company are dead, management and workers working together. Untrue. Herb was a cutthroat negotiator on every level, the difference is he was a leader, and proved it. We know where we stand with GK, we just need to be sure to get everything in writing as all of his words are hollow unless backed up by documentation. The AT guys showed us this lesson, and that's not a slam on the AT guys, its just that when we see how they treat them, we are not going let that happen to us.
What your trying to say is our old ways of the one LUV company are dead, management and workers working together. Untrue. Herb was a cutthroat negotiator on every level, the difference is he was a leader, and proved it. We know where we stand with GK, we just need to be sure to get everything in writing as all of his words are hollow unless backed up by documentation. The AT guys showed us this lesson, and that's not a slam on the AT guys, its just that when we see how they treat them, we are not going let that happen to us.
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HowardBorden
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According to the DFR case filed against ALPA he was quoted as saying this:Yup...
Well, PCL should take some of the blame. Just because.
"Too many of you are talking about 'how the pilots need to be able to decide for themselves.' Execute me, but bullsh!t. Direct democracy is nothing more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner... . The MEC must do the right thing and protect the pilots by voting this down at the MEC level and sending the Merger Committee back to the table, or to arbitration whichever the case may be."
According to the documents filed in the suit he went on to say:
"There isn't the slightest chance in he!! that an arbitrator would award anything less date of hire."
The suit contends that although he was the ALPA Executive Vice President he was not writing as an ALPA officer but sharing "nothing more than my own personal thoughts as an AirTran line pilot."
I'm not 100% certain he said these things or not and am relying on documents submitted in a lawsuit, but they were placed in quotation marks as if they were direct quotes. Maybe he can shed some light on whether they are accurate quotes or completely fictitious.
http://ia700806.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.gand.181455/gov.uscourts.gand.181455.1.0.pdf
DonVerita
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That's because most of those OAT CA's that have gone over have done so voluntarily because they reside in one of your bases. Not having to commute is a powerful motivational factor. For some, losing one's CA seat and taking an hourly pay cut is palatable if it means living in base. It also helps to not have 2 or 3 alimony payments/month
.When the forced displacements of OAT CA's to SWA F/O start, I believe you will see those numbers skew in the other direction unfortunately.
That's because most of those OAT CA's that have gone over have done so voluntarily because they reside in one of your bases. Not having to commute is a powerful motivational factor. For some, losing one's CA seat and taking an hourly pay cut is palatable if it means living in base. It also helps to not have 2 or 3 alimony payments/month
When the forced displacements of OAT CA's to SWA F/O start, I believe you will see those numbers skew in the other direction unfortunately.
So who is coming first JR AT pilots or SR AT pilots?
Tripower455
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That's because most of those OAT CA's that have gone over have done so voluntarily because they reside in one of your bases. Not having to commute is a powerful motivational factor. For some, losing one's CA seat and taking an hourly pay cut is palatable if it means living in base. It also helps to not have 2 or 3 alimony payments/month
There's plenty of involuntary commute pain being felt on our side already. And it's gonna get worse. And it's an actual pay cut (as in smaller pay checks) for many of them too.
Oh, and I thought we already discussed the "hourly" thing a few pages back.
As for the 201K and 101K victims, we've got plenty of them too.
Awesome.
DonVerita
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Very true. "Us" now means the both of us; so let's make sure that going forward there is just one "US".
scoreboardII
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Strange, I looked all through the lawsuit, and I couldn't find anyone mentioned by the name of PCL_128. So there's not anything for me to "shed some light on" for you. Sorry.
Tripower455
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ATLplt
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Did you just admitted that we're getting treated poorly? Finally, someone from the fairy tale side of the partition recognizes this.
The latest announcement that cancelled 717 training may change things a bit but I believe it will be junior captains and senior Fo's. There will be a few senior captains forced over out of seniority order.
+1. That pretty much sums up my thoughts.
HowardBorden
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Sorry, I thought it was relatively common knowledge that was you. Obviously I have been misinformed.
scoreboardII
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I don't think many from the Magic Kindom ever said you guys got treated well. How it happened is a different story and one rehashed once a month.
waveflyer
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If by "arrogant", you mean "has an opinion about an air tran leader spreading such ridiculous expectations" then yes. That's me.
I think it's much more arrogant to believe that you could be the lesser job, bought, and then think that you could improve on your AT date of hire.
How on earth do you think you're entitled to that?
As for "prick" - yeah, thats probably right on this site- ask sellouts scoot and lumberg- FI for you.
waveflyer
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You're not, but this is FI.
I learned that lesson the hard way a while back and had to give a much needed public apology to PCL for spreading a story about his real name. I got called out big time by just about everyone, friend and foe- and rightly so. It's up to each of us to disclose what we want here
waveflyer
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From experience- not close. Even from GK.
on the line- the culture will be created BY US mostly in the individual ways we treat our co-workers
I commit to the culture bc I refuse to punish myself by creating an angrier, less supportive, less nice place to work- just bc I may disagree with a leadership move or style. Or whatever hard negotiating goes on-
It will be what gk makes it- that's true, he is the leader and responsible for a great many things. But it will also be what WE MAKE IT. And we are also responsible for what we do.
No, by "arrogant" I mean "thinks he's better than everyone else."
It might have something to do with the fact that longevity and seniority have nothing to do with each other. You seem to have contracted a bad case of USAPA disease.
Tripower455
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Did you really just say this?
Seniority is based on longevity. This is Airline 101 stuff.
Not true. I can't remember if the SWAPA seniority list shows longevity dates or not, but if it did, you could see plenty of cases where a pilot's seniority is out of order with his longevity. For example, a pilot is hired in 1990. He takes a 5-year leave of absence beginning in 2000. His longevity date will be adjusted (can't remember your CBA for sure, but I think it's after six months), so while his seniority will remain unchanged, he now has only 18.5 years of longevity, even though he was hired 23 years ago.
But that's not really the main point. The main point is that longevity and seniority only have even a tenuous link within a single carrier. They have absolutely no link across carriers. A 1995 hire date at UAL will get you a much different seniority position and bidding priority than the same hire date at SWA. Both have the same longevity (assuming no longevity adjustments), but they have very different seniority positions. Hence, longevity and seniority have nothing to do with each other.
DonVerita
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I couldn't get back to you right away to continue our "discussion" because I had to wait for the July bid package to come out. I'm not on the 717, but I will use that category, in ATL, because it represents the largest group.
H= Highest credit line within days off group.
L= Lowest credit line within days off group.
Days off Block Credit Legs/Day (Avg.)
19 H: 79:48 79:58 3.0
L: 74:12 76:12 2.9
18 H: 80:26 85:39 2.7
L: 74:40 76:18 2.8
17 H: 82:25 83:22 2.8
L: 74:47 80:22 2.4
16 H: 87:21 87:36 2.7
L: 67:10 76:39 2.2
15 H: 85:23 86:28 2.6
L: 68:11 77:12 2.2
As you know, these are block hours. 60 minutes = 1 block hour. To get TFP, take the credit block number and multiply it by 1.13
The only piece of the equation that is missing is the Legs/Day average per Days Off category on the SWA side. That is an important metric as it relates to those OSW guys who insist on using end of month pay credit tally comparison vs. OAT guys who use hourly block pay rate comparison.
If a SWA pilot works more legs/day avg. than an ATN pilot, that would account for the higher final end of month pay credit figure, which is fine; you worked harder. However, it does not make for a good pay rate comparison. Only hourly rate converted to block does that.
As a side comparison to further my point -- A couple of years ago all ATN pilots received a "Wings of Welcome" packet from SWA & SWAPA. It was nicely done and was provided to answer some questions. One of the categories was, "Pay Comparison". Granted, this used our old contract pay rates rather than our new contract pay rates that we are under now. On page 5 it said that between May 2010 - May 2011 the average pay for a SWA F/O was $138,000. It then said that the average pay for a ATN CAPT was $158,000. Therefore, an OAT CAPT who involuntarily crosses the partition to become a SWA F/O loses an average of $20,000/year. That is a pay cut.
Tripower455
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Don. Here are a few examples culled from the MCO July lines
I only compared 19 day off, PM lines, because that's what I generally bid and hold as a mid level Capt. (FO lines are identical) and I don't have the energy to do more. I can't figure out how to make my bid program break down to legs per day, so i opened each line manually and did the math. It really doesn't matter, as the averages are gonna pretty close to the same. Maybe someone has more complete data already crunched, but I'll bet these averages are very close across the board re: pay per day/leg etc.
The average pay/block is 89.45 tfp/75.76 hours, for the 19 day off PM lines, of which there are 13.
To figure legs per day, I took the 2 highest paying, and 2 lowest paying lines and averaged the legs per day. All of the lines had 4 pairings on them with a mix of (mostly) 3 day trips, with a few 2 and 4 days mixed in.
The 2 highest paying 19 off PM lines are:
91.22 TFP for 79 hours block. 3.3 legs per day.
93.40 TFP for 80.05 hours block. 2.99 legs per day.
The 2 lowest paying 19 day off PM lines are:
89.10 TFP 72.35 Block. 2.91 legs per day
89.02 TFP 74.05 block. 2.91 legs per day
I am sure that if you averaged in the rest of the lines, it would be very close to 3 legs per day across the board, which looks shockingly similar to what you guys are flying.
You can figure the TFP/hour conversion and twist the numbers any way you want, but we are working very close to the same amount, assuming we fly our awarded bid line.
FWIW, I try to minimize commuting, so I more or less fly my line or ELITT up a few trips and average well over 100 tfp and still get 18-19 days off.
I rarely even bid on, much less get POT or even more rarely, work on my days off.
I only compared 19 day off, PM lines, because that's what I generally bid and hold as a mid level Capt. (FO lines are identical) and I don't have the energy to do more. I can't figure out how to make my bid program break down to legs per day, so i opened each line manually and did the math. It really doesn't matter, as the averages are gonna pretty close to the same. Maybe someone has more complete data already crunched, but I'll bet these averages are very close across the board re: pay per day/leg etc.
The average pay/block is 89.45 tfp/75.76 hours, for the 19 day off PM lines, of which there are 13.
To figure legs per day, I took the 2 highest paying, and 2 lowest paying lines and averaged the legs per day. All of the lines had 4 pairings on them with a mix of (mostly) 3 day trips, with a few 2 and 4 days mixed in.
The 2 highest paying 19 off PM lines are:
91.22 TFP for 79 hours block. 3.3 legs per day.
93.40 TFP for 80.05 hours block. 2.99 legs per day.
The 2 lowest paying 19 day off PM lines are:
89.10 TFP 72.35 Block. 2.91 legs per day
89.02 TFP 74.05 block. 2.91 legs per day
I am sure that if you averaged in the rest of the lines, it would be very close to 3 legs per day across the board, which looks shockingly similar to what you guys are flying.
You can figure the TFP/hour conversion and twist the numbers any way you want, but we are working very close to the same amount, assuming we fly our awarded bid line.
FWIW, I try to minimize commuting, so I more or less fly my line or ELITT up a few trips and average well over 100 tfp and still get 18-19 days off.
I rarely even bid on, much less get POT or even more rarely, work on my days off.
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Nah, flying's great. Just as long as it's no more than about 25 hours a month.
I would fly forever if they let me, and my retirement would be to only do it 50 hours a month max. Maybe less.
Retirement is a subjective thing. Don't let the financial wizzies define that for you. They are just snake oil salesmen collecting crumbs off your transactions, and can not be trusted. When their advice benefits them financially and promotes their system of madness and manipulation I don't know how you all think you deserve to stop working when you get older. Heck you live longer if you don't stop.
Tripower455
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Again, really?
scoreboardII
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You cant take a leave of absence here, your either on the list or off.
Tripower455
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Phlintstone
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Does a guy who takes a set of military active duty orders for a 1-3 years still accrue longevity?
Phred
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