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AMR also believes that the west pilots case is ripe!

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Guppiedriver

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Posts
544
III. THIS DISPUTE IS RIPE
American agrees with the arguments made by US Airways with respect to the ripeness
issue.
It writes separately here merely to emphasize the unique harm that will be done to
American should there be any delay in considering the merits of that dispute. ?A court ?appl[ies]
a two-part test to determine if a case satisfies prudential requirements for ripeness: the fitness of
the issue for judicial decision and the hardship to the parties of withholding court consideration.?
Western Watersheds Project v. Kraayenbrink, 632 F.3d 472, 486 (9th Cir.), cert denied, 132
S. Ct. 366 (2011). A question is fit for decision when it can be decided without considering
?contingent future events that may or may not occur as anticipated, or indeed may not occur at
all.? Cardenas v. Anzai, 311 F.3d 929, 934 (9th Cir. 2002) (internal quotation marks omitted).
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 57 Filed 05/07/13
-
?At the same time, a litigant need not ?await the consummation of threatened injury to obtain
preventive relief. If the injury is certainly impending, that is enough.?? Id. (quoting 18 Unnamed
?John Smith? Prisoners v. Meese, 871 F.2d 881, 883 (9th Cir. 1989)).To meet the hardship
requirement, meanwhile, ?a litigant must show that withholding review would result in ?direct
and immediate? hardship and would entail more than possible financial loss.? Winter v. Cal. Med.
Review Bd., Inc., 900 F.2d 1322, 1325 (9th Cir. 1990) (citing Cal. Dep?t of Educ. v. Bennett, 833
F.2d 827, 833-34 (9th Cir. 1987)).
It is difficult to imagine a labor case in which impending injury would be more certain, or
in which the direct and immediate hardship that would result from waiting is more patent.
American is about to embark on a merger valued at approximately $10 billion. As with most
mergers, the value in the merger is bound up in the ability to achieve efficiencies from combining
operations as soon as possible; the longer the merged company is required to operate separately
one ?American? pilot workforce and a second ?US Airways? pilot workforce, the more the value
of the merger for shareholders will be degraded. The competitive capacity of the merged airline
? and thus the livelihood of the tens of thousands of individuals the airline will employ ? will
turn on the airline?s ability to capitalize quickly on the opportunities the merger presents. Delay
means diminished opportunities.
It was precisely for that reason that US Airways, American and their respective pilot
unions negotiated a detailed, comprehensive pre-merger collective bargaining agreement, with
meticulous attention to deadlines, to ensure that the labor components of the merger could be
effectuated as soon as possible. USAPA, however, continues to delay the process of resolving the
internal US Airways pilot seniority integration dispute (a resolution that obviously would
facilitate the process of merging the American and US Airways pilot seniority lists). It now
claims, not only that this dispute is not currently ripe, but that it will not becomeripe for years ?
until the operational integration of the airlines is otherwise completed and the parties have
finished the JCBA process.
That is not tenable.
The bankruptcy court has approved the merger. The Plan of
Reorganization, which incorporates the MOU, has been filed and is awaiting approval by the
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 57 Filed 05/07/13
bankruptcy court. The risk of harm to Americanis imminent. USAPA has contractually agreed
to begin the merger-related seniority integration process ?as soon as possible after? the Plan is
approved and American emerges from Chapter 11 ? a date scheduled to arrive early in the third
quarter. This potential injury to American?s contract rights is not remote or insubstantial; it is
here and now.
To the extent it applies here, ripeness is a prudential doctrine, not a jurisdictional rule. See
Addington v. U.S. Airline Pilots Ass?n, 606 F.3d 1174 (9th Cir. 2010). Given the current state of
affairs, it would be unwarranted and imprudent in the extreme to use that doctrine to deny the
merging parties the benefit of their bargain and frustrate American?s efforts to realize the
advantages expected by the new company?s shareholders and employees alike.
 
Oooooooh Snap! Comments please from Turtle21 and Metrojet?


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
American says the MOU is a CBA.. So… is unquestionable RIPE!
Well… The balance is tipped over the AWA west guys....I think by AMR entering pushing the company into the litigation. Good luck to my AWA friends.
Meanwhile USAPA is alone in the middle of the ocean that claims it is not Ripe finally.
 
What is the source of this? APA or AOL?

III. THIS DISPUTE IS RIPE
American agrees with the arguments made by US Airways with respect to the ripeness
issue. It writes separately here merely to emphasize the unique harm that will be done to
American should there be any delay in considering the merits of that dispute. ?A court ?appl[ies]
a two-part test to determine if a case satisfies prudential requirements for ripeness: the fitness of
the issue for judicial decision and the hardship to the parties of withholding court consideration.?
Western Watersheds Project v. Kraayenbrink, 632 F.3d 472, 486 (9th Cir.), cert denied, 132
S. Ct. 366 (2011). A question is fit for decision when it can be decided without considering
?contingent future events that may or may not occur as anticipated, or indeed may not occur at
all.? Cardenas v. Anzai, 311 F.3d 929, 934 (9th Cir. 2002) (internal quotation marks omitted).
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 57 Filed 05/07/13
-
?At the same time, a litigant need not ?await the consummation of threatened injury to obtain
preventive relief. If the injury is certainly impending, that is enough.?? Id. (quoting 18 Unnamed
?John Smith? Prisoners v. Meese, 871 F.2d 881, 883 (9th Cir. 1989)).To meet the hardship
requirement, meanwhile, ?a litigant must show that withholding review would result in ?direct
and immediate? hardship and would entail more than possible financial loss.? Winter v. Cal. Med.
Review Bd., Inc., 900 F.2d 1322, 1325 (9th Cir. 1990) (citing Cal. Dep?t of Educ. v. Bennett, 833
F.2d 827, 833-34 (9th Cir. 1987)).
It is difficult to imagine a labor case in which impending injury would be more certain, or
in which the direct and immediate hardship that would result from waiting is more patent.
American is about to embark on a merger valued at approximately $10 billion. As with most
mergers, the value in the merger is bound up in the ability to achieve efficiencies from combining
operations as soon as possible; the longer the merged company is required to operate separately
one ?American? pilot workforce and a second ?US Airways? pilot workforce, the more the value
of the merger for shareholders will be degraded. The competitive capacity of the merged airline
? and thus the livelihood of the tens of thousands of individuals the airline will employ ? will
turn on the airline?s ability to capitalize quickly on the opportunities the merger presents. Delay
means diminished opportunities.
It was precisely for that reason that US Airways, American and their respective pilot
unions negotiated a detailed, comprehensive pre-merger collective bargaining agreement, with
meticulous attention to deadlines, to ensure that the labor components of the merger could be
effectuated as soon as possible. USAPA, however, continues to delay the process of resolving the
internal US Airways pilot seniority integration dispute (a resolution that obviously would
facilitate the process of merging the American and US Airways pilot seniority lists). It now
claims, not only that this dispute is not currently ripe, but that it will not becomeripe for years ?
until the operational integration of the airlines is otherwise completed and the parties have
finished the JCBA process.
That is not tenable. The bankruptcy court has approved the merger. The Plan of
Reorganization, which incorporates the MOU, has been filed and is awaiting approval by the
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 57 Filed 05/07/13
bankruptcy court. The risk of harm to Americanis imminent. USAPA has contractually agreed
to begin the merger-related seniority integration process ?as soon as possible after? the Plan is
approved and American emerges from Chapter 11 ? a date scheduled to arrive early in the third
quarter. This potential injury to American?s contract rights is not remote or insubstantial; it is
here and now.
To the extent it applies here, ripeness is a prudential doctrine, not a jurisdictional rule. See
Addington v. U.S. Airline Pilots Ass?n, 606 F.3d 1174 (9th Cir. 2010). Given the current state of
affairs, it would be unwarranted and imprudent in the extreme to use that doctrine to deny the
merging parties the benefit of their bargain and frustrate American?s efforts to realize the
advantages expected by the new company?s shareholders and employees alike.
 
Such a sad case. A ridiculous ruling by nicolau and then the whole usapa debacle. Let's hope everyone can move forward and bury this embarrassment.
 
Such a sad case. A ridiculous ruling by nicolau and then the whole usapa debacle. Let's hope everyone can move forward and bury this embarrassment.

A ridiculous ruling? That's how every arbitrator rules, on what each group brings to the merger at the time of the merger, not age of the pilot group. If you chose the wrong airline or one that fails, too bad. You can always leave for another one. If you don't, you have to accept it's faults. Also,the arbitrator was agreed upon by all sides. You are correct about the USAPA debacle, though.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Although I completely agree with the Nicolau ruling, I do find it ironic that AA pilots are supportive of pilot integration "fairness." I wonder how former Reno Air and TWA pilots feel about it...
 
General Lee[/QUOTE said:
If you chose the wrong airline or one that fails, too bad. You can always leave for another one.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Choose the wrong airline????? This is crazy! How does one know if an airline is right or wrong, General? Every airline flying is subject to the same woes of poor management- Delta included. Luck put you at a stable airline, for now. Today's stable airline could be the next decades Eastern. To make it even better, all of the airline pilots out there are only one fruit loop and a suitcase bomb away from total career annihilation. Try and be a bit more humble will you???
 
Or course they (management) will claim it's ripe. They want it resolved sooner rather than later, so anything they can do to speed that up is the position they will take. It certainly does not mean it is or is not ripe. Do you really think they would come out and say it's not ripe even if it were not?
 
Or course they (management) will claim it's ripe. They want it resolved sooner rather than later, so anything they can do to speed that up is the position they will take. It certainly does not mean it is or is not ripe. Do you really think they would come out and say it's not ripe even if it were not?

The smartest lawyers at the table aren't from AOL or USAPA, they're representing US Airways. I have a feeling the American lawyers are just as sharp. I'm not saying the judge will rule ripe or not, but now it is USAPA vs everyone else. Everyone else wants this settled, while USAPA is up to it's delay tactics as usual. You can only keep running around the ring in circles, keeping out of arms reach, for so long.
 
If you chose the wrong airline or one that fails, too bad. You can always leave for another one.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Choose the wrong airline????? This is crazy! How does one know if an airline is right or wrong, General? Every airline flying is subject to the same woes of poor management- Delta included. Luck put you at a stable airline, for now. Today's stable airline could be the next decades Eastern. To make it even better, all of the airline pilots out there are only one fruit loop and a suitcase bomb away from total career annihilation. Try and be a bit more humble will you???

I agree with GL on this one and it was stated in emotionless, non-arrogant fact. As far as your comments go, there is NO way to know what the right airline is going to be. It is matter of luck really. When a buddy of mine was getting out of the military, he was called an idiot by his peers for going to Delta instead of Pan Am. He was from Atlanta and wanted a better QOL. I guess he chose correctly. The rest us...well we will have to wait until age 65.

Phred
 
Last edited:
Although I completely agree with the Nicolau ruling, I do find it ironic that AA pilots are supportive of pilot integration "fairness." I wonder how former Reno Air and TWA pilots feel about it...

Depends on your definition of "fairness." Chances are that AA, TWA, Reno, UA, DL, US, SW, Airtran, <fill in the blank>... all have their own ideas of "fairness." How do Morris Air pilots feel about their SWA integration? Prob the same as Reno pilots. How do ex TWA pilots feel? Depends on which ex TWA pilot you ask. My opinion, a good majority of the ex TWA folks were royally screwed, and a small percentage made out like bandits. But then again, the entire AA Pilot Corps has been royally screwed by our last 10 years of bad management.

Now, if you're talking about the "fairest" way to conduct an SLI in an honest to goodness merger - I agree 100% that binding neutral arbitration is the way to go. As it should be in our merger with US.
 
If you chose the wrong airline or one that fails, too bad. You can always leave for another one.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Choose the wrong airline????? This is crazy! How does one know if an airline is right or wrong, General? Every airline flying is subject to the same woes of poor management- Delta included. Luck put you at a stable airline, for now. Today's stable airline could be the next decades Eastern. To make it even better, all of the airline pilots out there are only one fruit loop and a suitcase bomb away from total career annihilation. Try and be a bit more humble will you???[/QUOTE]

If 2 people buy different stocks and years later, one is in the dumps, the other doing well. Does the one doing well owe the other, in the dumps, anything? We all make choices, the adult thing to do is to accept your choice, and live on with it.
 
USAPA Update - Intervention by American in Addington II

Yesterday, May 7, 2013, American Airlines and its parent company AMR Corporation (referred to as "American") filed a motion in the United States District Court for the District of Arizona, seeking to intervene pursuant to Rule 24 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure in Addington II, (Docs. 56-57), "for limited purposes to protect interests in this litigation that are different from those of the parties."
In its motion to intervene, American clearly asserts (like US Airways) that it is taking no position on the merits of the underlying dispute in Addington II. American claims it seeks intervention on a limited basis in this case simply to:

  1. inform the District Court of the risks to the merger process that could be created by an overly broad preliminary injunction (should plaintiffs prevail in their preliminary injunction application), and
  2. advise the District Court of its agreement with US Airways' position that the underlying DFR claim by plaintiffs is ripe for consideration by the Court.
The overarching message of American's motion to intervene is that it wants this litigation resolved expeditiously and on the merits, in order to avoid any delay in, or harm to, the merger process.
With respect to ripeness, American's motion simply adopts the position of US Airways without any further argument, except that American also claims that the instant dispute is ripe because of the harm to American that may result from a dismissal of Addington II on ripeness grounds. This argument is legally insignificant to the question of the ripeness of plaintiff's claims (not American's, and not US Airways') that USAPA has breached its duty of fair representation. The standard for determining ripeness in this case has been clearly set forth by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Addington I, and reiterated by Judge Silver in her decision last fall granting summary judgment to USAPA in US Airways' action for Declaratory Judgment. Plaintiffs (in apparent coordination with US Airways and American) still do not satisfy this standard for all of the reasons set forth in USAPA's submissions to the Court in Addington II, including, but not limited to, the fact that the MOU is not the final agreement upon which ripeness of plaintiffs' claim was conditioned by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.
American's motion to intervene adds nothing of legal significance to the resolution of USAPA's motion to dismiss or plaintiffs' motion for preliminary injunction. Instead, it is merely an unsubtle attempt to further pressure the District Court into deviating from the correct legal standard for ripeness, set forth by the Ninth Circuit, and Judge Silver's previous decision in US Airways' Declaratory Judgment action.
USAPA's reply with respect to its motion to dismiss is due to be filed tomorrow, May 9, and a joint statement concerning the May 14 hearing is due to be filed on Friday, May 10. The hearing is scheduled for Tuesday, May 14, beginning at 10:00 a.m., in the District Court in Phoenix.

USAPA Communications
 
If 2 people buy different stocks and years later, one is in the dumps, the other doing well. Does the one doing well owe the other, in the dumps, anything? We all make choices, the adult thing to do is to accept your choice, and live on with it.

Quote of the day ^^^^

Choose your airline wisely. And when it's obvious it's going down the long road to oblivion, bail.

What's next, another "national seniority list" push.:crying:
 
I jess gots back from a 1 day followed by a 4 day. I don opened my suitcase after it were in a back of the car for a spell in the hot sun. My under drawers and socks wuz real ripe.

Duz that count??
 
American's motion to intervene adds nothing of legal significance to the resolution of USAPA's motion to dismiss or plaintiffs' motion for preliminary injunction. Instead, it is merely an unsubtle attempt to further pressure the District Court into deviating from the correct legal standard for ripeness, set forth by the Ninth Circuit, and Judge Silver's previous decision in US Airways' Declaratory Judgment action.
USAPA's reply with respect to its motion to dismiss is due to be filed tomorrow, May 9, and a joint statement concerning the May 14 hearing is due to be filed on Friday, May 10. The hearing is scheduled for Tuesday, May 14, beginning at 10:00 a.m., in the District Court in Phoenix.

USAPA Communications
Merely a flesh wound, right? If the case is ripe, then the MOU is a de-facto JCBA upon the Effective Date. So Kirby was right in saying that Nicolau won't be used after the JCBA. It will be used prior to that, on the effective date, to merge 2 lists into 1 new one.

Yes the east will probably get another round or two of upgrades in the interim, but the seniority integration will make that a hollow victory as they slide further into the seniority abyss with every subsequent vacancy bid.

If a jury finds that USAPA is guilty of a DFR to the west, then the east will likely pay damages out of those upgrade wages. APA will not be willing to do anything that could put them on the hook for paying those damages.

I really hate that it had to come to this, all because a few fear mongerers (Bradford, Cleary, et.al.) got so many to believe their lies about the consequences of the Nic which everyone is about to discover are far less than the consequences of USAPA's strategy (if you can call it that).

With power comes responsibility. USAPA chose to jettison both to the detriment of their supporters.
 

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