30 year Career: US Legacies vs Emirates/Qatar/Ethiad

[HA25]

This is a ridiculous assertion and most myopic! Outside of America (for some I know it's hard to think outside of our borders) many pilots start as cadets and progress up the left seat LONG before their counterparts in the USA do!

Witness Air France 447

 

[Varmint]

Witness Air France 447

There are a whole host of accidents that have happened involving "experienced" flight crews.

 

[Flyer1015]

they're great, but they usually lack experience and haven't been proven as captains... it's usually a good idea to get someone who's made it in the left seat at a 50 seat airline flying domestic before you take them to fly all over the world and oceanic not to mention make their first left seat a A320, 767 or bigger.. There are some RJ FO's Im sure hired at legacy airlines but they're very few are are probably VERY well connected or of the right gender.

You make it sound like a RJ FO making the left seat is a skillful thing, whereas it's all 100% seniority in an industry that has no movement. I'm sure you've noticed by now the glut of RJ FOs who are hitting 5-9+ years with no upgrade in sight at their respective airline.

 

[HA25]

You make it sound like a RJ FO making the left seat is a skillful thing, whereas it's all 100% seniority in an industry that has no movement. I'm sure you've noticed by now the glut of RJ FOs who are hitting 5-9+ years with no upgrade in sight at their respective airline.

bottom line.... get the experience as a captain of small plane before they give you the keys to the big one, it's common sense.

 

[Freight Dog]

bottom line.... get the experience as a captain of small plane before they give you the keys to the big one, it's common sense.

So is that why you're flying a 717 at HAL?

 

[HA25]

So is that why you're flying a 717 at HAL?

I am indeed, for reasons to do with my social security card... but hey, happy to be here.

 

[Flyer1015]

bottom line.... get the experience as a captain of small plane before they give you the keys to the big one, it's common sense.

Fair enough, but if the opportunity came up for something bigger and better than permanent RJ FO, one should take it too. I know of a 9E FO with no TPIC hired at Hawaiian recently.

 

[HA25]

Fair enough, but if the opportunity came up for something bigger and better than permanent RJ FO, one should take it too. I know of a 9E FO with no TPIC hired at Hawaiian recently.

Huge difference in FO's mind you. Some have 10 years and several types, international exp, etc. others might have 2000tt all in one type in and out of 7 airporrs.

Example is a classmate of mine who had 3 types, 3 airlines to include DC10 at Omni flying world wide. His breadth of experience more than makes up for no TPIC.

 

[Flyer1015]

Huge difference in FO's mind you. Some have 10 years and several types, international exp, etc. others might have 2000tt all in one type in and out of 7 airporrs.

Example is a classmate of mine who had 3 types, 3 airlines to include DC10 at Omni flying world wide. His breadth of experience more than makes up for no TPIC.

More experience is great, but we both know getting a job at a legacy/major is about who you know, and not how many types or oceanic crossings you have. This is why places like Hawaiian, Delta, United, American have all hired regional pilots with as low as 2000tt.

 

[Freight Dog]

Huge difference in FO's mind you. Some have 10 years and several types, international exp, etc. others might have 2000tt all in one type in and out of 7 airporrs.

Example is a classmate of mine who had 3 types, 3 airlines to include DC10 at Omni flying world wide. His breadth of experience more than makes up for no TPIC.

So who's more experienced:

A 3000 hour RJ FO who flight instructed, got hired at 1500 hours and now flies for a US regional airline

or

A 3000 hour B-777 or heavy 'bus FO with Etihad or Emirates who started there as a cadet with 200 hours?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Here we go again!

 

[Varmint]

So who's more experienced:

A 3000 hour RJ FO who flight instructed, got hired at 1500 hours and now flies for a US regional airline

or

A 3000 hour B-777 or heavy 'bus FO with Etihad or Emirates who started there as a cadet with 200 hours?

This is kind of like asking...which came first...the chicken or the egg.

Both ways seem to work just fine. There are some minor differences. Until you observe both types of training/experience models with an open mind, you will always think that your way is the right way.

 

[Freight Dog]

This is kind of like asking...which came first...the chicken or the egg.

Both ways seem to work just fine. There are some minor differences. Until you observe both types of training/experience models with an open mind, you will always think that your way is the right way.

That's exactly my point. Up until I left the US to fly abroad, I was convinced that the US way was the only right way.

Right now, I fly with mostly European or local FO's who tend to be highly competent, good pilots, good decision-makers, but only have like 3000 hours. Ironically, most of the European guys started flying Boeings with 200-300 hours, and I'd have no qualms putting my family onboard their plane.

 

[HA25]

So who's more experienced:

A 3000 hour RJ FO who flight instructed, got hired at 1500 hours and now flies for a US regional airline

or

A 3000 hour B-777 or heavy 'bus FO with Etihad or Emirates who started there as a cadet with 200 hours?

Depends on the job. If you're going to fly for Southwest or Hawaiian on inter-Island then id say the former. If you're going to work for FedEx, a legacy into a wide body or flying a GV then is say the latter.

sadly as the posted above noted however there are too many HR depts that value experience far less that "who you know" or what your demographic is.

 

[Flyer1015]

Depends on the job. If you're going to fly for Southwest or Hawaiian on inter-Island then id say the former. If you're going to work for FedEx, a legacy into a wide body or flying a GV then is say the latter.

sadly as the posted above noted however there are too many HR depts that value experience far less that "who you know" or what your demographic is.

I know a turboprop only Captain who went to right seat of a 747 classic at a cargo airline here in the US. It all depends. Fortunately, airlines usually don't care about what turbine your turbine time is. Jet or turboprop, unless a job requires specific hours in a specific type (like 500 hrs jet PIC).

 

[sinkrate]

This discussion is not unique to this industry. In most industries Europeans will have more years of and more in depth education than Americans. In Denmark you must apprentice for year before you can be a waiter. Americans will have more 'on the job training' and experience. In occupations that require time critical and independent decision making skills the scales tilt towards experience. Flying requires very little of that any more so the scales are tilting towards education - and as little of it as possible. Look at the ICAO multi crew pilot license and two pilot flight decks. The days of being on your own after you call 'gear up' are long gone.

 

[sinkrate]

I know a turboprop only Captain who went to right seat of a 747 classic at a cargo airline here in the US. It all depends. Fortunately, airlines usually don't care about what turbine your turbine time is. Jet or turboprop, unless a job requires specific hours in a specific type (like 500 hrs jet PIC).

A lot of guys did that in the 90's when regionals were mostly turbo props and the major US carriers were hiring. No one wanted go to the ACMI carriers so there were plenty of opportunities for that.

Much more impressive is going from the left seat of a CRJ at a US regional directly to the left seat of a wide body for an international passenger carrier. Now - thats stretching.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Much more impressive is going from the left seat of a CRJ at a US regional directly to the left seat of a wide body for an international passenger carrier. Now - thats stretching.

Not as difficult as you might think, of course it depends on what kind of experience you had to begin with, but there have been many guys with 10,000+ hours and plenty of command time in several types of commercial jets that have done just that.

 

[DC10]

I know a turboprop only Captain who went to right seat of a 747 classic at a cargo airline here in the US. It all depends. Fortunately, airlines usually don't care about what turbine your turbine time is. Jet or turboprop, unless a job requires specific hours in a specific type (like 500 hrs jet PIC).

My first jet was a DC10. I'd never flown anything bigger or more complex than a Jetstream 41 before that.

 

[Buford]

Try to keep your seniority number back home if you can. Working for Emirates is fun but I sure wouldn't want to spend 25-35 years here. It's a good place to wait out a furlough or save some money the last 10 years of your career. Some can enjoy a career here but others might struggle.

Dubai can get old. You can only go to the mall so many times. Everything and I mean everything here is based on commerce. It costs money to go to the park. Some people love it others go crazy...Just make sure you do your homework before giving up a SWA number.

I've been happy here but I have an escape route lined up if things go south. Oh and be prepared to discover that all pilots from the USA are worthless aviators. We can't follow SOP's, don't follow proper RT, and are generally poor aircraft operators...lol You need a thick skin!

Spot on. Been in Dubai a total of 11 years and don't know about sticking around another 25. Those who've kept their seniority at a legacy are sitting pretty. I can't say I was quite that lucky, however, I can say that when I got hired by EK it couldn't have come at a better time. EK has served me and the family well, but do I want to retire one day knowing I've spent half my life in the Middle East and this is all my kids know? Let's just say I'm considering all future options and am keeping an eye on the US market.