30 year Career: US Legacies vs Emirates/Qatar/Ethiad

[Freight Dog]

Did you burn your bridges in China? I believe they have the highest paid A320 captains in the world. They also have a deal where they'll hire you as A330 captain if you have A320 PIC time.

Additionally, Qatar Airways and Etihad hire direct entry captains into A320.

Life is too short to spend it in the seniority rat race if you're an experienced pilot.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I'm afraid Dumb Pilot and Freight Dog are right. I went to USAir in 07. Retirement age changed and I got furloughed 8 months later. I spent 3 years abroad as a A-320 Ca. bonus, the family loved it. Finally I was told to come back or be dropped, nice. Now after being back one year the good part has been I live in base and only fly about 20 hrs. a month, the bad is I am now 48 years old, the ugly is having burned thru what I saved I am now going in dept make 1/3 what I made abroad, and I just don't have the years to wait for "better things are just over the horizon"
Any thoughts where to take 1600hrs. of A-320 PIC time?
Cheers

In no particular order:

Etihad
Air Arabia
Qatar
SilkAir
Air Asia
China ( lots )
Tanzania ( new start-up )
Japan
Emirates ( as an F.O. )


I'm sure I'm missing some.


TP

 

[Golden Falcon]

live to work or work to live??.....A senior wide body capt or a junior narrow body FO at any USA company will probably have a much better life style... it seems seniority has little to do with QOL at most foreign carriers...while one might progress to wide body capt quite rapidly..(or more so than in USA) is the schedule and back to back regional night turns worth it? That's an individual decision....big money in China big issues to go along with it...research and talk to experienced folks at the airline you are considering not the honeymooner new joiners...TC! good luck...

 

[Dumb Pilot]

There are companies in the expat market that have low QOL, substandard T&C'S and draconian work rules for sure, but not all of them, even in the same market (such as China for example) QOL is very different from airline to airline, due diligence is required when researching your target market and airline, I would add that your research should be more about talking to pilots working there that are in a stage of their lives that is similar to yours (similar age, marital status, similar family situations) I see satisfaction levels that vary widely depending on age and marital status. There are good jobs out there that are very good alternatives to those that have gotten beaten down to a pulp in furlough fodder territory.

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Any thoughts where to take 1600hrs. of A-320 PIC time?
Cheers

Wow, I envy you. 500+ hour PIC pilots in the A-320 are the highest sought after commodity right now in the Ex-Pat world. There are literally 25 contracts out there you could work right now. You have to decide what motivates you. If it is money then China is the place. Many contracts are paying 20K per month not including overtime. If time off is your main motivation then Korean Air A-320 transition to A-330 is one of the best deals going for commuting Ex Pat pilots. Air Japan also offers one of the best commuting contracts available if not the best in the Ex Pat world. If you are seeking job security and career progression then Etihad should be near the top of your list. Lots of good QOL contracts in Singapore ie Silk Air, Tiger and Jet Star. If you go to China do your research thoroughly. If your adventurous try a new country every 3 years. Best of Luck!

 

[macdu]

I am back in China after getting recalled to my old bankrupt major airline. Being on reserve at the bottom of the list with a two leg commute just wasn't going to cut it. At my age there was no way I was going to upgrade either so I cut my losses.
If you have an agreeable family situation to the expat life why burden yourself with the states. It's very true there is a wide variance of lifestyle between certain jobs and countries. Do your homework and cross your fingers.
Here in China it's a bit of a wild card. I think Japan and most recently encouraging news of some training cultural changes at Korean with a rumor of Air Canada taking over the training there. I have not confirmed that but if true could make life there much easier.

 

[cameltoad]

No, I did not burn my bridge in China, my issue was with the CAAC or more exactly the medical division. To all that might go to China learn this from me. I have or have never had any medical issues, but my physical size confounded the Chinese. Plus to make matters worse a couple of Chinese Capts. had heart attacks while I was there, in the CAAC wisdom they told their doctors that the next time a doc. signs off a pilot who has a prob. he goes to jail,,,this is very typical of how the Chinese do things.
As I mentioned I had no medical problems but at 6'6" and 300lbs they just couldn't believe there was nothing wrong with me. So every 6 months even though their medical is amazingly thorough, I always had to do additional testing to prove I would not keel over dead. MRI scans, MIBI tests, etc. But when an ultrasound was requested for no reason than curiosity I said no and came home. Hoping to try Etihad or Korean,,,and yes currently losing weight.

 

[cameltoad]

Slight correction to my last thread, not an ultrasound, I did several of those and no I was not pregnant. It was an angiogram that was requested, that means cutting into your femoral artery, running a tube to your heart and squirting dye and making an image, mind you all the other test, MIBI scan, MRI, ultrasound, Bruce protocol stress test, showed NO cardiac abnormality or blockage of any kind. BTY, it is not unheard of people having adverse effects up to dying from angiograms,,,guess I'm just a wus but this is the kind of thing you can run into abroad, trust me I was there 2 years and I know firsthand of several expat Capts. having these kind of unheard-of-in -the-US issues abroad.
Don't get me wrong, living and working abroad can be an amazing experience but you will have to up your game and you very well might have to deal with issues as bizarre as mine.

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Yes I can back up your claims of outrageous tests in China going on currently. The latest fad is an ultrasound on the neck of the cartoid artery. Any blockage detected requires a heart CT scan where a contrast agent with a slightly radioactive dye is used and high speed images like an MRI tube are taken of your heart and cardiovascular system. The CT scan because of the dye carries a risk of 1/1000 of developing cancer and should only be performed once every 5 years. It seems the CAAC Docs have taken a total "CYA" type medical screening posture before they will sign off on any medicals with heart issues. Gall bladder sludge and kidney stones are other highly disqualifying tests they frequently find. Do yourself a favor and do a full body ultrasound scan before coming to China seeking employment. You can only count on employment for 6 months at a time. It is like running the Gauntlet, they will eventually break you down and knock you off. Overall great cash, good commuting options, lots of time off and some excellent aircraft and flying but not a long term secure gig. If you can survive 2 contracts though you can probably retire and bedone with the rat race.

 

[macdu]

Agreed, the medical here has got way out of hand. The Chinese are well known for knee-jerk reaction to events here and some recent medical issues with a very few pilots is driving this lunacy. If you are even close to being outside their size, weight, and bmi indexes you are already at a disadvantage at the medical. They will find something wrong with you. As was stated in an earlier post, the doc's are now gun shy to let any remote issue slip by for fear of losing the coveted party job and position.
It will start with, "you need another test it's just routine". Then you fail that test. Then they pull you from the line. Then the pay stops. Then you go home.
If the AME'S in the U.S. used the same methods as the Chinese do for flight physicals I am serious when I say half the pilots would be grounded in the U.S.!

 

[HA25]

Wwyd?

Pros? Cons?

I wouldn't trade 30 years at HAL for anything... certainly not a foreign job.

 

[Varmint]

I wouldn't trade 30 years at HAL for anything... certainly not a foreign job.

yeah.....certainly not one of them there foreign jobs.

 

[cameltoad]

Say does any one have experience with the Koreans? I was thinking of trying the 330 transition program at Korean or going to Asiana. Hopefully their med. processes are a little more sane....

PS: Hot Pot ain't so bad, beats spitting out the little bones of the "meat" in the crew meal!

 

[CCDiscoB]

Life is too short to spend it in the seniority rat race if you're an experienced pilot.

Bump...
Well said. this "old" dude going overseas at first opportunity. Any updates?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Bump...
Well said. this "old" dude going overseas at first opportunity. Any updates?

I see that you have the 744 rating? I would suggest (provided you are in fair shape) that you take a look at NCA! They seem to be a happy go lucky bunch!

 

[HA25]

I see that you have the 744 rating? I would suggest (provided you are in fair shape) that you take a look at NCA! They seem to be a happy go lucky bunch!

only if he's as fit as a tri-athlete... but yeah. I also know friends who are happy at Qatar Air, as street captains on the 777, and they don't require the type, only wide body glass PIC.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

A tri-athlete would actually have more troubles passing the medical than somebody that is just fit and takes regular care of themselves, I have seen many guys that are health nuts failing the medical, there is such a thing as "too fit" we have a pilot that participates in iron man competitions and he has to take a month off his exercise routine and training before his medical, in the other hand, the only preparation I do before my medicals is to set the alarm clock.

Sure Qatar is a good option for those that want to uproot their families but it is not a commuting job (or at least not practical for commuting) the reason why I suggested NCA was because of their easy commute and good quality of life while at work, all those jobs in the ME will fly you 80 to 90 hours a month, for an experienced pilot that has been flying for 30 plus years that is just too much, NCA offers an easier roster pattern and a very stable days off pattern.

 

[HA25]

Makes sense. Yeah my bmi was too high at 6' tall and 206.

Too bad cause I do like easy commute and not working my arse off.

The ME carriers are in for a rude awakening when hiring picks up here in the US. They'll have a tough time getting much more than RJ FO's if they don't fix QOL

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Yeap, if your BMI is anything above 30 (at least for the pre employment medical, after you get the job is not so strict) you won't get it, over 60% of people that take the medical (according to one of the agency guys) fail it. Blood pressure is a biggie, anybody running from concourse A to X doing six legged days and eating McCholesterol on a regular basis better get into a regime of a couple of months in preparation beforehand.

About the applicants, they are seeing the effects of the US market getting better already, we have a fair bit of attrition of guys going back to the US now! And the recruiting campaign from competitors is getting pretty heated, China is exercising a lot of pressure with high salaries and they are comming to the realization that adding QOL (more days off, better commuting conditions) gets them applicants.

 

[fareview]

Makes sense. Yeah my bmi was too high at 6' tall and 206.

Too bad cause I do like easy commute and not working my arse off.

The ME carriers are in for a rude awakening when hiring picks up here in the US. They'll have a tough time getting much more than RJ FO's if they don't fix QOL

With all due respect - I don't know one American - and I mean not one at EK who is considering going and applying at the US majors.

WRT rude awakening ...you must be joking...currently 2000 qualified apps for 100 positions this year.

Why would any of us in the LHS (or the potential for it) at EK even think about going to the US. (Taxes alone!)

Perfect here? No.

But compared to going back...not a chance. Most of us making hay and having a blast, that said you need to proceed with caution as getting on the wrong side of "the man" here can be costly.

Gotta go, chauffeur waiting outside my villa...

fv

 

[Varmint]

The ME carriers are in for a rude awakening when hiring picks up here in the US. They'll have a tough time getting much more than RJ FO's if they don't fix QOL

Two questions for you....

Aren't RJ FO's what most majors/nationals in the US hire?

I don't believe RJ F/O's are as bad to hire as you make them sound....after all, you were one once, it appears.

Have you ever even personally worked for a ME carrier or a foreign carrier?
(Just so I can know your credibility score)


But Yes, I do hope you are right and they do have a tough time getting FO's because that means my pay and benefits package will continue to improve so that more qualified applicants will be attracted.

 

[fletch717]

Varmint, what do mean by "getting on the wrong side of the man?" I am exploring the EK option as my position in the SWA/AT merger hasn't gone well for me.

 

[Varmint]

Varmint, what do mean by "getting on the wrong side of the man?" I am exploring the EK option as my position in the SWA/AT merger hasn't gone well for me.

I think what FV meant was don't annoy the sheikh (who also runs the company). If you do what your supposed to, follow the rules, and don't bitch about their country in front of them you will be fine.

I would definitely recommend checking the place out.....just make sure that the whole family (if you have a wife and kids) will be happy here first....bring them out to explore the place. If they aren't happy and onboard you will be miserable. I am very happy and not planning on returning to the rat race in the US unless I absolutely have to.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I think what FV meant was don't annoy the sheikh (who also runs the company). If you do what your supposed to, follow the rules, and don't bitch about their country in front of them you will be fine..

It is a sheikh over there and it is a so and so-san over here, its all the same. The trick to happiness in any job abroad is to show up at your checking in time and do your flight as professionally as you can, when you arrive go have a beer and don't get involved with their internal politics, you are not going to change the place.

 

[fletch717]

Thanks, no kids just a wife. She's on board. I'm not into politics. Attitude determines the altitude. I just want to see the world and have fun. If I have to go back to the right seat I'd rather do it in a triple 7 going some place new and cool

 

[HA25]

Two questions for you....

Aren't RJ FO's what most majors/nationals in the US hire?

no, it's usually RJ captains, or FO's (Former captains) at non-shed, or other smaller airlines Allegiant, Frontier, etc..

I don't believe RJ F/O's are as bad to hire as you make them sound....after all, you were one once, it appears.

they're great, but they usually lack experience and haven't been proven as captains... it's usually a good idea to get someone who's made it in the left seat at a 50 seat airline flying domestic before you take them to fly all over the world and oceanic not to mention make their first left seat a A320, 767 or bigger.. There are some RJ FO's Im sure hired at legacy airlines but they're very few are are probably VERY well connected or of the right gender.

Have you ever even personally worked for a ME carrier or a foreign carrier?
(Just so I can know your credibility score)

I personally have not, BUT.. a very close friend is at Qatar, and while I currently don't know anyone at EK, my class mate at HAL and two others I know (both now at UAL) have told me much about the job. Moreover, I've flown in and out of the ME, including DBX with another carrier and met a few crews socially and chatted about work rules, and QOL. It's not personal experience, but I trust these sources better than the internet.

But Yes, I do hope you are right and they do have a tough time getting FO's because that means my pay and benefits package will continue to improve so that more qualified applicants will be attracted.

And that is my point... they'll have to pay a lot better.. Closer to the Chinese and other Asians, who themselves are not having an easy time recruiting.

 

[fareview]

Posting authoritatively about the QOL at EK because you have a close friend at Qatar and have been to Dubai....is well...

...oh never mind

"The Man" refers to the firm/ie the country, the company etc.... Which all ends at the same doorstep.

fv

 

[sat74]

no, it's usually RJ captains, or FO's (Former captains) at non-shed, or other smaller airlines Allegiant, Frontier, etc..



they're great, but they usually lack experience and haven't been proven as captains... it's usually a good idea to get someone who's made it in the left seat at a 50 seat airline flying domestic before you take them to fly all over the world and oceanic not to mention make their first left seat a A320, 767 or bigger..

This is a ridiculous assertion and most myopic! Outside of America (for some I know it's hard to think outside of our borders) many pilots start as cadets and progress up the left seat LONG before their counterparts in the USA do! There is zero data to suggest those who don't fly for crap wages at the regional level in the right seat for years and years are any less experienced than a guy who gers hired into a 737/A320/330 etc. Many EK new hire's first jet was a 737 or similar, and they do just fine.

 

[Varmint]

no, it's usually RJ captains, or FO's (Former captains) at non-shed, or other smaller airlines Allegiant, Frontier, etc..



they're great, but they usually lack experience and haven't been proven as captains... it's usually a good idea to get someone who's made it in the left seat at a 50 seat airline flying domestic before you take them to fly all over the world and oceanic not to mention make their first left seat a A320, 767 or bigger.. There are some RJ FO's Im sure hired at legacy airlines but they're very few are are probably VERY well connected or of the right gender.

Proven as Captains? How many permanent FO's do you know at regionals or any other airline that are stuck in the right seat because they are not able to prove their ability as a Captain? I don't know any. Becoming a captain is more of a seniority issue than a stupidity issue at most airlines. In the last weak hiring wave, I knew plenty of FO's who bailed for bigger and better equipment while senior regional captains who were making mediocre "big" bucks chose to stay rather than risk a career move to the bottom of a seniority list during an uncertain hiring wave.

I personally have not, BUT.. a very close friend is at Qatar, and while I currently don't know anyone at EK, my class mate at HAL and two others I know (both now at UAL) have told me much about the job. Moreover, I've flown in and out of the ME, including DBX with another carrier and met a few crews socially and chatted about work rules, and QOL. It's not personal experience, but I trust these sources better than the internet.

And that is my point... they'll have to pay a lot better.. Closer to the Chinese and other Asians, who themselves are not having an easy time recruiting.

I fly around the world and have met and spoken with a lot of crews also. I have also been to Tehran but don't claim to know the idiosyncrasies of the airlines in Iran from conversations with their crews. There is TONS of research information put on the internet by very experienced normal people like us who are involved directly with companies. If I wanted to come work at HAL the first place I would come is here to get a gauge from many sources as to what is happening there. I would rather do that than trust someone who was at a place years ago and may have been disgruntled or forced to leave for reasons you will never be aware of.

Also, the guys you know may have been here in the ME when some cuts were made during the economic downturn and that could have annoyed them. I also believe that, if that is the case, what they fail to realize is that those cuts or changes to the contract here in the ME pale in comparison to the unilateral gutting of contracts by bankruptcy judges in the US.

 

[Green]

Thanks, no kids just a wife. She's on board. I'm not into politics. Attitude determines the altitude. I just want to see the world and have fun. If I have to go back to the right seat I'd rather do it in a triple 7 going some place new and cool

Try to keep your seniority number back home if you can. Working for Emirates is fun but I sure wouldn't want to spend 25-35 years here. It's a good place to wait out a furlough or save some money the last 10 years of your career. Some can enjoy a career here but others might struggle.

Dubai can get old. You can only go to the mall so many times. Everything and I mean everything here is based on commerce. It costs money to go to the park. Some people love it others go crazy...Just make sure you do your homework before giving up a SWA number.

I've been happy here but I have an escape route lined up if things go south. Oh and be prepared to discover that all pilots from the USA are worthless aviators. We can't follow SOP's, don't follow proper RT, and are generally poor aircraft operators...lol You need a thick skin!