9E Wins Race to Bottom

[JumpersAway]

Is anyone with me in thinking we (ExpressJet) need to be marketing a better option for PQ pilots here, at our airline, than what they will have with this. We ought to be combatting this horrid T/A with job protections here, along with pay. Hey- give the guys a job, and do it without an interview or probationary pay. At least that way we hold the line at the regional level within DCI, and our fellow ALPA pilots aren't dumped on the street to lose currency. This option buys time, and it cements a more solid future for us all.

Clutch- shut the hell up already!

 

[Clutch]

Fuvk that...

 

[belliott]

Is anyone with me in thinking we (ExpressJet) need to be marketing a better option for PQ pilots here, at our airline, than what they will have with this. We ought to be combatting this horrid T/A with job protections here, along with pay. Hey- give the guys a job, and do it without an interview or probationary pay. At least that way we hold the line at the regional level within DCI, and our fellow ALPA pilots aren't dumped on the street to lose currency. This option buys time, and it cements a more solid future for us all.

Clutch- shut the hell up already!

I dare say that if any other regional out there were to offer jobs to 9E pilots with even a 2:1 longevity offer for pay... not seniority within new said company... Pinnacle would be void of employees within a month. 6th year pay to 3rd year at most any other company would hurt but not nearly as much as this TA. Never going to happen but hell a guy can dream right?

 

[JustaNumber]

... Delta WILL be next targeting ASA/Expressjet, then will go after Skywest. Delta wants Compass/Gojet costs from ALL its partners and has all the leverage to get it.

...and if Xjet/SkyWest refuse, Delta will...what, give several hundred new aircraft to GoJet? They couldn't even handle 8 lousy new planes. I heard "from a guy" that all 8, beginning with N391CA, are currently sitting in mothballs in the desert, because they couldn't find enough pilots to fly them. If this is true, Delta may not have the leverage it used to have.

 

[General Lee]

...and if Xjet/SkyWest refuse, Delta will...what, give several hundred new aircraft to GoJet? They couldn't even handle 8 lousy new planes. I heard "from a guy" that all 8, beginning with N391CA, are currently sitting in mothballs in the desert, because they couldn't find enough pilots to fly them. If this is true, Delta may not have the leverage it used to have.

It sure seems like they have been in control since the PNCL BK. You don't think they have multiple plans? These are the people who surprised everyone by buying a refinery. They think outside the box. That can be good or bad.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[JumpersAway]

It sure seems like they have been in control since the PNCL BK. You don't think they have multiple plans? These are the people who surprised everyone by buying a refinery. They think outside the box. That can be good or bad.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, I see what you are saying, but I'd like to point out that DAL's "outside the box" thinking has been done, and executed before. Republic Airlines (not the regional, the airline that is a part of the new Delta bloodstream) had a refinery in the 80's. They sold it just before merging with Northwest.

I'm honestly thinking that ExpressJet will become less and less of a Delta Connection carrier, and may well become heavily entrenched in the new AA/USAirways and United. That will be interesting to see, expecially given that DAL was extremely unhappy about our small agreement with AA out of DFW.

 

[e=mc2]

What does Tom Wycor Do - Absolutely Nothing!

 

[JustaNumber]

It sure seems like they have been in control since the PNCL BK.

Word on the street is that when Delta ruthlessly tried to save a few bucks by sending 8 700s from Xjet to GoJet, Jerry used what he had leaned about ruthlessness from Delta, and bought up all the 700 sim time in North America. Now, instead of Delta saving a few bucks (at the cost of destroying quite a few careers), Delta is being denied ALL of the revenue from those 8 planes.

I'm not trying to get into a contest of "my CEO is a bigger bada$$ than your CEO" (because, frankly, I'm disgusted by all the underhanded behavior here), I'm just saying that the balance of power is changing.

This is a classic case of domestic abuse. When you beat your domestic partner enough, call it karma, the natural laws of the universe, or simply "good goes around but so does bad" (how ironic), eventually your partner will grow a set and refuse to put out in between the beatings.

 

[Plainsman]

Dick Anderson sitting at Woolman's desk, acting like a used car salesman on that safety video is classic. What a low class pos. Not too far removed from Mullins.

 

[centralpilot]

Word on the street is that when Delta ruthlessly tried to save a few bucks by sending 8 700s from Xjet to GoJet, Jerry used what he had leaned about ruthlessness from Delta, and bought up all the 700 sim time in North America. Now, instead of Delta saving a few bucks (at the cost of destroying quite a few careers), Delta is being denied ALL of the revenue from those 8 planes.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Do you really think Jerry would burn money on sim time just to block a competitor? How do you think Delta would react if SkyWest was really sabotaging another one of Delta's providers?

Regarding the airplanes, I've seen GoJet aircraft in Delta Connection livery as recently as last week in RDU and STL. They are most certainly not parked in the desert and I doubt they are having any real staffing trouble. If GoJet couldn't handle our 8 (+4 from SkyWest) why did Delta give them 10 more from the ComAir shutdown?

These rumors just sound like wishful thinking.

 

[profit]

What does Tom Wycor Do - Absolutely Nothing!

What the f^%$ do you know? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

[Kaman]

V1 only a Kool Aid drinker sees a threat in facts.

I know V1 personally and he is no Kool-Aid drinker and is a decent person that has paid his dues and done his best for the pilots of CJC and 9E. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for your remarks. Regardless of whether this TA passes or not, it isn't going to change the fact that the hard-working, honorable and dedicated professional pilots of Pinnacle Airlines and their families are going to heading down a rough road. Consider yourself fortunate that whomever called you first for an interview, and you were subsequently hired hasn't come to you for your job...

 

[Monster Buck]

Word on the street is that when Delta ruthlessly tried to save a few bucks by sending 8 700s from Xjet to GoJet, Jerry used what he had leaned about ruthlessness from Delta, and bought up all the 700 sim time in North America. Now, instead of Delta saving a few bucks (at the cost of destroying quite a few careers), Delta is being denied ALL of the revenue from those 8 planes.

I'm not trying to get into a contest of "my CEO is a bigger bada$$ than your CEO" (because, frankly, I'm disgusted by all the underhanded behavior here), I'm just saying that the balance of power is changing.

This is a classic case of domestic abuse. When you beat your domestic partner enough, call it karma, the natural laws of the universe, or simply "good goes around but so does bad" (how ironic), eventually your partner will grow a set and refuse to put out in between the beatings.

Go tell the thousands of Comair and Pinnacle pilots that. You are commenting from a narrow point of view from your airline at the moment. Moments change and I don't ever see your regional running the show with your" balance of power changing". That is a regional lifer dream and it has been dashed at every regional. It sucks and anyone that thinks that a sub-contractor is going to run the show is dreaming.

 

[JustaNumber]

Maybe it is a bit of wishful thinking on my part, but you can't blame me for trying to look for a positive angle in this whole s**tstorm that Delta has created.

By the way, can anyone at GoJet comment on the staffing/training/flying situation? I'm as curious as anyone to know the real truth.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

'Delta is coming after Xjet/skyWest next'... Is Wycoff saying this? What he really means is probably 'Delta will use our pilot group as a model to slash and burn if you pass this TA'...

But hey, we'll throw you a grand and send you on your way. Don't spend it all in one place!

 

[PCL_128]

What does Tom Wycor Do - Absolutely Nothing!

Tom Wychor works his ass off for his fellow pilots. He always has. Blaming him just makes you look like a dolt.

 

[General Lee]

General, I see what you are saying, but I'd like to point out that DAL's "outside the box" thinking has been done, and executed before. Republic Airlines (not the regional, the airline that is a part of the new Delta bloodstream) had a refinery in the 80's. They sold it just before merging with Northwest.

I'm honestly thinking that ExpressJet will become less and less of a Delta Connection carrier, and may well become heavily entrenched in the new AA/USAirways and United. That will be interesting to see, expecially given that DAL was extremely unhappy about our small agreement with AA out of DFW.

Let's not try to discuss the merrits of whether or not the refinery was a good deal (most analysts think it could save millions per year now), I was saying I think management has many plans depending on how this TA will go. So far they seem to be ahead of everyone else. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Maybe it is a bit of wishful thinking on my part, but you can't blame me for trying to look for a positive angle in this whole s**tstorm that Delta has created.

By the way, can anyone at GoJet comment on the staffing/training/flying situation? I'm as curious as anyone to know the real truth.

This was really created by the PNCL BK. Without it, there would be no changing of the contract. It was the merger between all 3 airlines, and the resulting list and costs. The rest is all a result of the BK. BK is never fun, and it allows others to control the situation.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Raoul Duke]

What the f^%$ do you know? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Well, we know what's in that TA. Please feel free to defend yourself (I mean him. . .). At least the Comair guys can hold their heads high. . .

 

[profit]

Well, we know what's in that TA. Please feel free to defend yourself (I mean him. . .). At least the Comair guys can hold their heads high. . .

Tom Wychor has always done a lot. If you don't like what he does, then you can say that. But idiots stating "he doesn't do anything" are just being dumb.

As for pride and whatever else you are talking about, be specific if you want a response.

 

[mesaba13]

How is it that the Comair guys can hold their heads higher than the rest? Do you know what their last offer was to management?

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Let's not try to discuss the merrits of whether or not the refinery was a good deal (most analysts think it could save millions per year now), I was saying I think management has many plans depending on how this TA will go. So far they seem to be ahead of everyone else. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

HA! Only General Lee could get away with saying let's not talk about something (then throw in his tired broken record I'm better than you comment anyhow).

Everyone needs to block this idiot and deny him his coveted 20K posts. HELLO! HE SAYS THE SAME STUPID FLAMEBAIT OVER AND OVER! HE ISN'T EVEN A DELTA PILOT! YET YOU GUYS FALL FOR IT AND ARGUE WITH HIM EVERY TIME!

 

[JustaNumber]

This was really created by the PNCL BK. Without it, there would be no changing of the contract. It was the merger between all 3 airlines, and the resulting list and costs. The rest is all a result of the BK. BK is never fun, and it allows others to control the situation.


Bye Bye---General Lee

So what really caused the BK? The costs associated with the merger? Mergers happen all the time without bankruptcy, so that's not it. How about, 9E management and DL/aka NW intentionally concocted a scheme to underbid all the other regionals, at below cost, in exchange for temporary growth and management enrichment. When it eventually all fell apart, as it was designed to, a BK-imposed concessionary contract would be used to strong-arm all the other regionals in the portfolio. DL would then have the lowest regional costs in the industry and would enjoy an advantage over the competition, and DL management would walk away with millions. It was a brilliantly evil plan.

 

[Indy319FA]

Ummmmmm, no. How long did Indy Air last "stand alone?" (You had a front row seat, too). They had plenty of cash, but everyone else gave them the squeeze. Also, if they tried that, they could lose their feed contracts, or guaranteed money. Not likely to happen, and very foolish if it did. Indy Air was the perfect example. Also, tell me where there is room for a "new" airline to set up shop and not "bother" a legacy or LCC? The city would have to be big enough too to support the new venture. Indy Air tried IAD, and still couldn't survive long. Also, you don't seem to understand what other things a new venture would need, like reservation systems, advertising, and all of the other things they currently don't have themselves. Southwest STILL doesn't have IT systems that can handle INTL reservations, they have to use AirTran's system and planes for INTL ops. It's kinda complicated...... Unlikely.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Why Independence Air failed wasnt the point. The point I am making is Akin has been smart enough to get rid of the 50 seaters, and has aircraft on order that can be run profitably in a stand alone operation IF NEEDED. DL management has backup plans and so does Skywest. Had Skeen followed the original Goldilocks plan, which called for sending the 200s back to lessors as the contracts expired, and aquiring larger aircraft with lower CASMs for the stand alone operation, instead of flying 50 seaters around for 6 months and buring through millions in cash, the Fly I fiasco would have been very different. Akin isn't that stupid. Nor is he stupid enough to negotiate contracts that will lose money.

If Delta wants to play hardball with Akin and Skywest/Expressjet when their contracts expire, they will find it will be very different from any other regional they have dealt with. They have a very good management team, are well capitalized, and have shrewd management.

We'll see how the whole 9E situation plays out. I wouldn't be surprised if it passes because of the bribes that are going to be paid to the junior guys, and the hope of a job a Delta for the senior guys. I also wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't pass either. During my time there I saw how management used and abused the employees, and how hard the fight was for the contract in 2011. So I won't be surprised if many there vote no just out of spite for former and present management (Delta included). I'd say its a toss up and will be close either way, and I can understand how a vote can be justified either way. Best of luck to all the folks at 9E, you're going to need it no matter how this votes turns out. While I didn't enjoy working for the company, I did enjoy working with many of the people there and they deserve a better fate that what is in front of them, but unfortunately Uncle Phil drove the company into the ground.

 

[Indy319FA]

So what really caused the BK? The costs associated with the merger? Mergers happen all the time without bankruptcy, so that's not it. How about, 9E management and DL/aka NW intentionally concocted a scheme to underbid all the other regionals, at below cost, in exchange for temporary growth and management enrichment. When it eventually all fell apart, as it was designed to, a BK-imposed concessionary contract would be used to strong-arm all the other regionals in the portfolio. DL would then have the lowest regional costs in the industry and would enjoy an advantage over the competition, and DL management would walk away with millions. It was a brilliantly evil plan.

Sheer incompetence. Pinnacle was the most poorly mangaged airline I've ever run into. If not for the hard work of dedicated employees, the place would have fallen apart long ago. Having worked at another company (Republic) with multiple certificates, I was shocked at how poorly the company handled the merger and the operation of multiple certificates. I remember working in the SOC when members of the board started coming in to observe the operation. Once of the board members that had worked at Continental and JetBlue came by scheduling to ask some questions. He was astounded at how backwards our whole scheduling system was and how we operated. He sat with his head in his hands writing stuff down for a while. Uncle Phil was shown the door shortly after. Menke did some good things, but by the time he got to the bridge the Titanic was taking on water, and going down fast. Not a whole lot he could do to stop it. If anybody could ever be accused of managment malpractice it was Uncle Phil and his gang.

 

[777forever]

Why Independence Air failed wasnt the point. The point I am making is Akin has been smart enough to get rid of the 50 seaters, and has aircraft on order that can be run profitably in a stand alone operation IF NEEDED. DL management has backup plans and so does Skywest. Had Skeen followed the original Goldilocks plan, which called for sending the 200s back to lessors as the contracts expired, and aquiring larger aircraft with lower CASMs for the stand alone operation, instead of flying 50 seaters around for 6 months and buring through millions in cash, the Fly I fiasco would have been very different. Akin isn't that stupid. Nor is he stupid enough to negotiate contracts that will lose money.

If Delta wants to play hardball with Akin and Skywest/Expressjet when their contracts expire, they will find it will be very different from any other regional they have dealt with. They have a very good management team, are well capitalized, and have shrewd management.

We'll see how the whole 9E situation plays out. I wouldn't be surprised if it passes because of the bribes that are going to be paid to the junior guys, and the hope of a job a Delta for the senior guys. I also wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't pass either. During my time there I saw how management used and abused the employees, and how hard the fight was for the contract in 2011. So I won't be surprised if many there vote no just out of spite for former and present management (Delta included). I'd say its a toss up and will be close either way, and I can understand how a vote can be justified either way. Best of luck to all the folks at 9E, you're going to need it no matter how this votes turns out. While I didn't enjoy working for the company, I did enjoy working with many of the people there and they deserve a better fate that what is in front of them, but unfortunately Uncle Phil drove the company into the ground.

Well said. I would like to interject about the bribe part. What bribe? Unless it's a bribe with their own money. Most 9E FOs are going to take a 9% paycut and be furloughed anyway over a year from now, with around 6k of their own money on the way out.

Own money you ask? Yes! Because if the contract is voted down, you can give yourself a severance package by saving 9% of your pay per month until you get furloughed during the wind down.

This TA does nothing for FOs and junior captains in the long run. The prime beneficiaries are the top 400 senior captains who will keep their seat but will topped of at 91/hr, bringing unnecessary pressure on the rest of the DCI portfolio. Very few of them will move on to Delta or elsewhere, clogging up 400+ jobs, in addition to the 400 FO spots that can be given to another regional in the event PNCL winds down.

If PNCL winds down, there will be more regional jobs with faster career progression for those at PNCL that will be furloughed anyway.

If the TA is voted in, there will be less jobs for the furloughs as 800ish jobs will be clogged by senior PNCL pilots paid at very low pay rates, which will make all the furloughs scrambling for fewer jobs that are paid even less due to the TA they just voted in.

It's not worth the 6k of your own money.

 

[Clutch]

BS! Pinnacle does it cheaper!

 

[e=mc2]

Yhea ole Tommy boy worked real hard to save his do nothing never has to fly job at the expense of the rest of the pilot group. But there are 1800 pilots who will get the shaft to pay for his ability to do nothing.

 

[profit]

Clutch and mc.squared.. why dont you go have a nice hot shower together and leave the rational discussion to the adults.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

 

[Clutch]

Clutch and mc.squared.. why dont you go have a nice hot shower together and leave the rational discussion to the adults.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

Your hatred for me is your own self-loathing redirected outward.. I'm sorry. I wish your sketchy company didn't exist either. Mesa, GoJet, now you... Whatever. Vote yes. At least you have a job right?