Naw...he earned his new call sign, it was worth it. But your right about him being JP and Fred's prison $&tch.
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Naw...he earned his new call sign, it was worth it. But your right about him being JP and Fred's prison $&tch.
I'm aware the PE guys are less than pleased. So are the old CAL, TI, and NYA pilots (maybe not NYA?). However, they all understand this: They all got integrated. They had jobs at the end of the day. UAL pilots dubbed themselves 'brain surgeons" and everyone else "general practitioners" and put hundreds of FAL pilots completely out of work. Big damn difference.
I'm no fan of JP, so much as I really can't believe how much you guys complain about what he's done to you, compared to what you would be doing to us (if you could).
I'm no fan of JP, so much as I really can't believe how much you guys complain about what he's done to you, compared to what you would be doing to us (if you could).
eaglesview
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ACWild
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I think I missed something. Let me get this straight, Fred is egging people on to vote against this contract?
I agree with chppr5 on "voting on the merits of this contract." As far as the perceived "seat grab" that some UAL pilots think that the CAL guys are after, I can hold captain now but am not going to do it because of our lack of work rules. The current TA doesn't provide much in the way of improvements in that area either so when we combine, feel free to take it if you can hold it. I honestly don't want to wish that abuse on anyone.
There is a crisis of accountability among the LUAL pilots. You're all pissed off at JP. Why? Who is he accountable to? LCAL pilots. And if you read over what Chpp5 has been so willing to describe for us in this thread, LCAL needs a MC that is accountable to them. He, and I expect way too many other LUAL pilots, want the whole damn thing to go their own way. No apologies, no middle ground, LUAL pilots expect everything. JH is accountable to LUAL pilots, make him work for you. He puts forward lopsided positions that slant toward him. Not even all the LUAL pilots, mostly the real senior. He's not reasonable so he can't get things done. He blames JP and asks his pilots to do the same. Why do you guys keep giving him a free pass?
Yuppyguppy
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Read up on what CAL did to Eastern. It's a travesty and all the while CAL guys were silent. Remember the ALPA drive you old CAL guys. You were silent while EAL withered and died. FU. I'm voting YES to prevent you from doing it yet AGAIN!!!
eaglesview
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Your wasting your time debating flopgrunt. Let's assume that both pilot groups have in the past proceded in a manner to benifit themselves. He and most of the CAL pilots don't want to deal with the present. They turned there back on us and showed there true colors when in return for their PS we were asking for support to extend the TPA. (ironic isn't it) They don't want to acknowledge they have already reached the maximum of "other carriers lift" agreed to in the current TPA as evidenced by UAL furloughing f/a's and they are hiring f/a's. They just want us to sit back "trust them" as we retire our 757 and all of the replacement a/c for them (737's) are currently flown by them. Trust them my a$$. It's called risk management. CAL pilots and the UCH management which is mostly comprised of old CAL cannot be trusted. I will vote yes to remove all of the CAL pilot leverage.
nimtz
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And destroy our collective leverage for next 6-8 years. You sure a quite simply a moron! Man I thought we needed to ditch the scabs to have any chance of equaling Delta. Now it's clear to me grumpy pants like you need to smash into 65 before this group will stop being content under Management's thumb.
Let's say we didn't take PS and used the fallout to further your cause in the T&PA. What were you going to do for us? Anything?! It's spelled out in a sort of microcosim right here on this thread. Chpp5 (among others) want no pay banding, the 744 at the top, CAL to forego PS to help LUAL, credit for more widebodies, to lose no credit for low pay on those widebodies, etc, etc. I listened to him, and then asked "what do we get"? His words: "that's up to you to decide". WTF does that mean?! When have you guys offerred something to us?
chppr5
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WOW, how did you get hired with CAL?? I thought they hired some sharp people over the last 15 years. Obviously you slipped thru the cracks. I've tried to be diplomatic and debate you with facts and common sense but you are still making sh*t up and looking for someone to tell you what you get with the TA. READ IT YOURSELF, MAKE A DECISION ON THE MERITS OF THE CONTRACT AND STOP MAKING SH*T UP TO FURTHER YOUR AGENDA. I keep looking for a level headed response and some common sense from you and you keep spouting nonsense. WTF, I hope my family never gets on an airplane you at the controls. I'm done here, this is just a waste of my time!
From UAL Chairman C27
November 26, 2012
VOTE YES OR NO; BUT DON’T VOTE OUT OF FEAR
By now you have had the opportunity to begin reviewing the proposed TA the MECs sent to you by a 12-3 vote at United, and a 7-4 vote at Continental. The ratification window opens November 30, 2012 (this is a change) and closes December 15, 2012…
While other venues exist to explain each section of the TA, this “Chairman’s View” does not. One issue that pervades much of the discussion that I’ve heard recently is the question “What happens if the TA is voted down?”
If the TA is not ratified by the UAL & CAL pilots in a combined vote there are a couple of possible scenarios that I think you should consider:
First, the world will come to an end and everything bad that could happen to UAL pilots will.
Second, if the TA is turned down, and I believe this is a far more realistic scenario, the NMB will immediately come to ALPA to begin a focused effort to determine what modification (s) would increase the likelihood of a TA that could be ratified. Early in that process, the NMB, UAL & ALPA will meet to determine a reasonable schedule for resumptions of negotiations as all of the Parties have already agreed to in the Transition and Process Agreement and the 2012 extension of same name:
TPA.2-K. Mediation for a JCBA. If the JNCs do not reach a tentative JCBA by
October 12, 2010, the Parties (unless they otherwise agree) will apply to the NMB no later than October 14, 2010 under Sections 5 and 6 of the RLA, for mediation
of the JCBA. If at any time the JNCs reach a tentative JCBA but it fails to be approved, ratified or executed under ALPA procedures, the Parties will apply for or resume the NMB’s mediatory services, unless they agree not to do so.
Our job now is to evaluate and assess the TA before us. Did reading it make you happy? Is this what you expected? Does this TA reflect improved career security? Is our profession advanced with this agreement? Does this TA adequately reflect the value that pilots bring to this airline? Are you content living with this TA for the next 4-+ years?
Don’t be afraid to vote no if the TA does not sway you on its merits. There is no set timeline; but there is a process to follow. The two NMB officials that I have talked with said that the dynamics are different in each case. Remember, the NMB’s mandate is to get two parties to an AGREEMENT, not a holding pattern. Every presentation that I personally heard from NMB members was about guiding the negotiations toward an agreement. If this TA is voted down by the membership, the NMB will accept their Congressional mandate and bring the parties back to the table for further discussions. They will pressure ALPA as well as UAL to get to a deal that will be ratified. The NMB recognizes that TAs are on occasion voted down. It is part of the negotiation process. When was the last time the NMB parked negotiations after a NO vote if neither party requested a period of no negotiations? The answer is never. If someone says the company will walk away from negotiations, have them read the TPA. No party wants to walk away from their duties related to this merger, least of all the NMB.
The plan to create the world’s largest airline must have a combined pilot group to become a reality. Management knows our ratification timetable, and they know the negotiation/arbitration timeline for securing a single Integrated Seniority List. Smisek has always had his own timetable for signing a JCBA, completing the ISL process, and reaping the full rewards of this merger. He has stalled at every opportunity for 2.5 years. His purpose was to fatigue and frustrate; to divide and whipsaw; in short, to make us feel vulnerable and act out of desperation. Is this TA the deal you want? If so, then vote yes. If it is not, then consider your perspective when answering the question on the picket sign.
It is doubtful that there is a lot of sand left in Jeffery’s hourglass. If there was, why would he have attempted to negotiate shortening the SLI process last January? Why did he refuse to permanently bridge the terminable clauses in the original TPA and instead insist that there was a TA in place prior to a March 31, 2013 deadline in TPAx? Why do we continue to slog through all the assimilation phases of what laughingly is called training these days? Why did Fred’s friends freak out, insisting that every pilot order midnight blues from M&H by December 1?
A NO vote on the TA will not transform Smisek. He is who he is…and by every measure, so far, he is a failure as a Legacy CEO. He has painted the planes faster than anyone I‘ve ever seen, but everyone knows that paint is only skin deep. I know he believes his own PR…but does anyone else, anymore? Every previous merger related initiative by Smisek can accurately be described as Not Ready for Prime Time. From the rush to get SOC to the pax reservation system; from pass policy to IPAD deployment; from the industry denounced scheme to train in fixed based simulators to the massive shift of control over pilots’ lives in this TA…NRFPT!
His mentors were the historical villains of our industry and Jeffery, unlike his peer at DAL, is stride for stride burning all the bridges to a successful merger. Richard Anderson, DAL CEO, made a business decision to pay a premium to his pilots in order to get everyone pulling on the same end of the rope…it worked just like in the story books. Wall Street knows it, the customers know it, and we all know it. Smisek must succeed in completing this merger or his only fan will be his mother. He cannot take UAL to the promised land of this merger except through the JCBA; so, what is that key to “his” success worth to you? How much sand is left in the hourglass?
Another doomsday “scary” argument that some are making is really, in my opinion, just an attempt to further intimidate you and question your realistic and reasonable direction to the MEC. Management will pull all the “good stuff” out of the deal if we attempt to renegotiate. Really? How much “good stuff” is to be found? Does this make sense? How could they ever expect any deal if there was no “good stuff”? If there are enough pilots between the combined United/Continental group that vote NO, management will be compelled to find out what needs to be fixed. Remember, despite a strategy to make you think otherwise, Smisek wants and needs an agreement so he can get the integrated pilot group and begin to fly as one airline. Management gains no economic or negotiating advantage by trashing the deal out of spite or perceived buyer’s remorse. This is a deal they have crafted; let’s not kid ourselves! They WANT this thing done. They’ll posture and intimate that the deal will be different, but in the end they will have to work with us for a re-negotiated deal.
In June, Doug Parker at USAIR said, "We are obviously disappointed that our flight attendants chose to vote against ratification of a new contract," Doug Parker, US Airways' Chairman and CEO, said in a news release. "This tentative agreement was the result of years of deliberate negotiations and was achieved with the instrumental assistance and hard work of the National Mediation Board (NMB). It was also unanimously approved by the AFA negotiating committee. We will now consult with the NMB and AFA leadership to determine the best steps going forward to one day reach a ratified agreement.” This is boiler-plate language and you can expect to hear something very similar if this TA is rejected.
Whether you vote to ratify or not is completely your choice and your responsibility. As unionists, I know the members of C27 are not reluctant to stand up on their hind legs and live their principles. Remember, parroting fear based arguments is just another way to sell something. The “Key Men” who founded our union analyzed the risks and decided to engage the enemy in a business-like manner that would define a profession. Today, the decision is yours.
Your vote should be on the merits of the TA –
don’t vote out of fear.
Jeffrey Berg
Chairman, Council 27 / UALMEC
November 26, 2012
VOTE YES OR NO; BUT DON’T VOTE OUT OF FEAR
By now you have had the opportunity to begin reviewing the proposed TA the MECs sent to you by a 12-3 vote at United, and a 7-4 vote at Continental. The ratification window opens November 30, 2012 (this is a change) and closes December 15, 2012…
While other venues exist to explain each section of the TA, this “Chairman’s View” does not. One issue that pervades much of the discussion that I’ve heard recently is the question “What happens if the TA is voted down?”
If the TA is not ratified by the UAL & CAL pilots in a combined vote there are a couple of possible scenarios that I think you should consider:
First, the world will come to an end and everything bad that could happen to UAL pilots will.
Second, if the TA is turned down, and I believe this is a far more realistic scenario, the NMB will immediately come to ALPA to begin a focused effort to determine what modification (s) would increase the likelihood of a TA that could be ratified. Early in that process, the NMB, UAL & ALPA will meet to determine a reasonable schedule for resumptions of negotiations as all of the Parties have already agreed to in the Transition and Process Agreement and the 2012 extension of same name:
TPA.2-K. Mediation for a JCBA. If the JNCs do not reach a tentative JCBA by
October 12, 2010, the Parties (unless they otherwise agree) will apply to the NMB no later than October 14, 2010 under Sections 5 and 6 of the RLA, for mediation
of the JCBA. If at any time the JNCs reach a tentative JCBA but it fails to be approved, ratified or executed under ALPA procedures, the Parties will apply for or resume the NMB’s mediatory services, unless they agree not to do so.
Our job now is to evaluate and assess the TA before us. Did reading it make you happy? Is this what you expected? Does this TA reflect improved career security? Is our profession advanced with this agreement? Does this TA adequately reflect the value that pilots bring to this airline? Are you content living with this TA for the next 4-+ years?
Don’t be afraid to vote no if the TA does not sway you on its merits. There is no set timeline; but there is a process to follow. The two NMB officials that I have talked with said that the dynamics are different in each case. Remember, the NMB’s mandate is to get two parties to an AGREEMENT, not a holding pattern. Every presentation that I personally heard from NMB members was about guiding the negotiations toward an agreement. If this TA is voted down by the membership, the NMB will accept their Congressional mandate and bring the parties back to the table for further discussions. They will pressure ALPA as well as UAL to get to a deal that will be ratified. The NMB recognizes that TAs are on occasion voted down. It is part of the negotiation process. When was the last time the NMB parked negotiations after a NO vote if neither party requested a period of no negotiations? The answer is never. If someone says the company will walk away from negotiations, have them read the TPA. No party wants to walk away from their duties related to this merger, least of all the NMB.
The plan to create the world’s largest airline must have a combined pilot group to become a reality. Management knows our ratification timetable, and they know the negotiation/arbitration timeline for securing a single Integrated Seniority List. Smisek has always had his own timetable for signing a JCBA, completing the ISL process, and reaping the full rewards of this merger. He has stalled at every opportunity for 2.5 years. His purpose was to fatigue and frustrate; to divide and whipsaw; in short, to make us feel vulnerable and act out of desperation. Is this TA the deal you want? If so, then vote yes. If it is not, then consider your perspective when answering the question on the picket sign.
It is doubtful that there is a lot of sand left in Jeffery’s hourglass. If there was, why would he have attempted to negotiate shortening the SLI process last January? Why did he refuse to permanently bridge the terminable clauses in the original TPA and instead insist that there was a TA in place prior to a March 31, 2013 deadline in TPAx? Why do we continue to slog through all the assimilation phases of what laughingly is called training these days? Why did Fred’s friends freak out, insisting that every pilot order midnight blues from M&H by December 1?
A NO vote on the TA will not transform Smisek. He is who he is…and by every measure, so far, he is a failure as a Legacy CEO. He has painted the planes faster than anyone I‘ve ever seen, but everyone knows that paint is only skin deep. I know he believes his own PR…but does anyone else, anymore? Every previous merger related initiative by Smisek can accurately be described as Not Ready for Prime Time. From the rush to get SOC to the pax reservation system; from pass policy to IPAD deployment; from the industry denounced scheme to train in fixed based simulators to the massive shift of control over pilots’ lives in this TA…NRFPT!
His mentors were the historical villains of our industry and Jeffery, unlike his peer at DAL, is stride for stride burning all the bridges to a successful merger. Richard Anderson, DAL CEO, made a business decision to pay a premium to his pilots in order to get everyone pulling on the same end of the rope…it worked just like in the story books. Wall Street knows it, the customers know it, and we all know it. Smisek must succeed in completing this merger or his only fan will be his mother. He cannot take UAL to the promised land of this merger except through the JCBA; so, what is that key to “his” success worth to you? How much sand is left in the hourglass?
Another doomsday “scary” argument that some are making is really, in my opinion, just an attempt to further intimidate you and question your realistic and reasonable direction to the MEC. Management will pull all the “good stuff” out of the deal if we attempt to renegotiate. Really? How much “good stuff” is to be found? Does this make sense? How could they ever expect any deal if there was no “good stuff”? If there are enough pilots between the combined United/Continental group that vote NO, management will be compelled to find out what needs to be fixed. Remember, despite a strategy to make you think otherwise, Smisek wants and needs an agreement so he can get the integrated pilot group and begin to fly as one airline. Management gains no economic or negotiating advantage by trashing the deal out of spite or perceived buyer’s remorse. This is a deal they have crafted; let’s not kid ourselves! They WANT this thing done. They’ll posture and intimate that the deal will be different, but in the end they will have to work with us for a re-negotiated deal.
In June, Doug Parker at USAIR said, "We are obviously disappointed that our flight attendants chose to vote against ratification of a new contract," Doug Parker, US Airways' Chairman and CEO, said in a news release. "This tentative agreement was the result of years of deliberate negotiations and was achieved with the instrumental assistance and hard work of the National Mediation Board (NMB). It was also unanimously approved by the AFA negotiating committee. We will now consult with the NMB and AFA leadership to determine the best steps going forward to one day reach a ratified agreement.” This is boiler-plate language and you can expect to hear something very similar if this TA is rejected.
Whether you vote to ratify or not is completely your choice and your responsibility. As unionists, I know the members of C27 are not reluctant to stand up on their hind legs and live their principles. Remember, parroting fear based arguments is just another way to sell something. The “Key Men” who founded our union analyzed the risks and decided to engage the enemy in a business-like manner that would define a profession. Today, the decision is yours.
Your vote should be on the merits of the TA –
don’t vote out of fear.
Jeffrey Berg
Chairman, Council 27 / UALMEC
eaglesview
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Flopgut;2356506[COLOR=red said:
Yes sir, in exchange for including CAL in profit sharing which you did not have. (ie what we were going to do for you) your side would help us extend the TPA. In stead your side just took the money. It's part of your culture. That's why CAL MEC wanted are W2's which was an embarrassment as anyone with an internet connection could figure out what we made. It's also why your side likes to constantly talk about your current pay rates compared to ours. Tht's what is most important to you. It is the Continental mentality dating back almost three decades now.
The 747 pay banding is interesting. All we have done is block the biggest airplane from getting more pay for ALL of us. Even the 747-800 is banded with the 767. That's just silly. Funny how the 380 is not, none on order so no threat to you. Very transparent behavior. I don't even think the 777 should be banded with the 767. Since you have those maybe that wouldn't have been so objectionable but we will never know.
eaglesview
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Probably the most accurate statement so far.
Continental
Farting on your Jumpseat
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Got 2 more UAL guys on board with no vote today at lax. Once I opened their eyes to our mgt and the loose language. They were looking at this with LUALs team. Once I got them on board with the realities of our henchmen it wasn't a hard sell.
Good for them. They didn't want to live under our nightmare
Good for them. They didn't want to live under our nightmare
nimtz
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And yet you are voting YES to the cursed pay banding you despise. Noble principles sir...
eaglesview
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Good job......2 of them.....out of 6500........that;s a whole .000308 %. I know of approx 700 on the CAL side who have said yes to anything their entire career.
eaglesview
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You are correct, pay banding is an issue for me but it is being "out voted" by other issues. But thank you for pointing that out.
Continental
Farting on your Jumpseat
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Every little bit helps. I don't want "us" to be stuck with this pos T/A for the next 8 years. Every NO vote I can get offsets those just wanting some PS then punch out without having to live/die under this thing
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