Weak L-UAL pilots

[SimHo]

I thought L-UAL pilots were the strongest ALPA pilots in the industry. All I hear from them on this TA is we have to vote for it. They are accepting a subpar contract because they are scared. What happened to “We are the best and deserve no less than the best?”

 

[bpapaDC8]

This thread is weak.

 

[chppr5]

I thought L-UAL pilots were the strongest ALPA pilots in the industry. All I hear from them on this TA is we have to vote for it. They are accepting a subpar contract because they are scared. What happened to “We are the best and deserve no less than the best?”

Maybe the UAL group is growing tired of getting blindsided by JP. Maybe this group is willing to live with a subpar contract for 4+ years to finally get rid of the management shill, something the CAL pilots should have done years ago. By not confronting JP and his minions shows the CAL pilots approve and support his antics. Not one motion floored to recall, not one "vote of no confidence", a failed recall of his biggest supporters Barron and Cook. Maybe UAL guys ARE the trade unionists everyone thought they were, willing to take it in the back side for 4 more years to get rid of a management wannabe that holds the Master Chairman position at CAL. The UAL pilots don't control JP, the CAL pilots do. CAL wants unity now for a NO vote, where were you for the last 2 1/2 years when your MC was the speed bump in the process? Your silence was deafening. If this TA passes you're as much to blame as the YES voters!

 

[Stukadriver]

If this POS TA passes, we will have to live with it for much longer than 4 years. CAL's current concessionary contract became amendable in December 2008.

 

[Continental]

If this TA passes you're as much to blame as the YES voters!

Typical response from the cowards. . Blame everyone they can so when the sh&t hits the fan they make sure the finger isn't pointed at them.

 

[eaglesview]

Maybe the UAL group is growing tired of getting blindsided by JP. Maybe this group is willing to live with a subpar contract for 4+ years to finally get rid of the management shill, something the CAL pilots should have done years ago. By not confronting JP and his minions shows the CAL pilots approve and support his antics. Not one motion floored to recall, not one "vote of no confidence", a failed recall of his biggest supporters Barron and Cook. Maybe UAL guys ARE the trade unionists everyone thought they were, willing to take it in the back side for 4 more years to get rid of a management wannabe that holds the Master Chairman position at CAL. The UAL pilots don't control JP, the CAL pilots do. CAL wants unity now for a NO vote, where were you for the last 2 1/2 years when your MC was the speed bump in the process? Your silence was deafening. If this TA passes you're as much to blame as the YES voters!

Wasting your breath.

 

[Flopgut]

Maybe the UAL group is growing tired of getting blindsided by JP. Maybe this group is willing to live with a subpar contract for 4+ years to finally get rid of the management shill, something the CAL pilots should have done years ago. By not confronting JP and his minions shows the CAL pilots approve and support his antics. Not one motion floored to recall, not one "vote of no confidence", a failed recall of his biggest supporters Barron and Cook. Maybe UAL guys ARE the trade unionists everyone thought they were, willing to take it in the back side for 4 more years to get rid of a management wannabe that holds the Master Chairman position at CAL. The UAL pilots don't control JP, the CAL pilots do. CAL wants unity now for a NO vote, where were you for the last 2 1/2 years when your MC was the speed bump in the process? Your silence was deafening. If this TA passes you're as much to blame as the YES voters!

It's difficult for you guys to understand, but this is what it feels like to have to negotiate from equal ground. You don't get to hang CAL off a cliff and then cut the rope like you did Frontier and threatened to do to USAir and America West. Conversely, no one is trying to take you down the Eastern road. You've got replacement airplanes on order and a T&PA agreement that will NOT get pulled out from underneath you.

What do you expect out of the sCAL Master Chair? Just hand you everything? Advocate you guys as a first choice to the detriment of CAL pilots? Come on, he's doing exactly what he should with regard to the pilots he works for. Case in point: The 450 million. JH says: I want 70% of it for sUAL pilots. JP: How about 60%? JH: F-you greedy SOBs, I demand 70%! So we go to arbitration, and you get 55%, even less than JP was going to settle for. Peirce was being fair, Heppner was over-reaching... This sort of thing ought to change your opinion about your own MC...

 

[chppr5]

It's difficult for you guys to understand, but this is what it feels like to have to negotiate from equal ground. You don't get to hang CAL off a cliff and then cut the rope like you did Frontier and threatened to do to USAir and America West. Conversely, no one is trying to take you down the Eastern road. You've got replacement airplanes on order and a T&PA agreement that will NOT get pulled out from underneath you.

What do you expect out of the sCAL Master Chair? Just hand you everything? Advocate you guys as a first choice to the detriment of CAL pilots? Come on, he's doing exactly what he should with regard to the pilots he works for. Case in point: The 450 million. JH says: I want 70% of it for sUAL pilots. JP: How about 60%? JH: F-you greedy SOBs, I demand 70%! So we go to arbitration, and you get 55%, even less than JP was going to settle for... This sort of thing ought to change your opinion about your own MC...

OK, you want to go down this road you might as well get the facts straight.

-May 2010 JP won't sign a merger agreement with UAL MC that was signed by the DAL/NWA MC's stating that joint negotiations for a JCBA will have no influence on the SLI. Hence the pay band disagreement below. Pay band the 76-400 with a 747-400 to influence the SLI argument. UAL's NC direction was to get rid of all pay banding which was a concessionary BK position. Pay banding also goes against Decision 83.

-CAL forced pay banding on UAL with Barron pounding his fist on the table threatening to live under existing contracts for 5 more years. UAL capitulated to move forward. Pay banding is concessionary, Does DAL have it? Only on the 747/777.

-UAL Alpa filed a grievance stating the transition training for the 75/76 was inadequate. 85% of the QRG was changed and the company thought home learning was enough. CAL ALPA didn't back their claim, said they had no problem with home learning. Where's the unity?

-Back room deal getting profit sharing in DEC 2011. Both MEC's were trying to use PS as leverage for more T&PA protections but before anything was complete the CAL MC went behind the UAL MC's back to get a few pieces of gold, rather than working in unity with UAL MC. This was not suppose to dilute the UAL pool but it did, by about 15%. This should be headed to court soon, but the UAL lawyers are still waiting for the emails between the Co and CAL ALPA, which they refuse to hand over.

-Throughout negotiations the position of the JNC was for RETRO pay. The agreement as of the AIP was 90% retro figured on the DAL differential (DAL pay rates in 2009-2012). A tri party agreement between UAL MC, CAL MC and UCH. Fast forward about a month and JP backs away from that agreement because his merger committee informs him it will affect their SLI argument (W2, career expectation). JP was not a popular guy at the ALPA BOD meeting in Sept due to his flip flop on the retro agreement. Now he says it is a signing bonus. The reason UAL got a bigger chunk was that the DAL differential was larger on the UA side than on the CAL side. It's simple math.

- LOA 25. 1999-2001 hires at UAL only get longevity credit from May 2008 while ALL CAL furloughs get FULL credit for furlough. Oh, BTW, May 2008 is the hire date of the most junior pilot furloughed at CAL. Another SLI ploy inserted in the JCBA by JP. To move things forward JH sells out the original 1472 to codify JP.

In closing, you can call it what you want. CAL didn't have to balls to end the divisiveness their MC was instilling. Instead of having 12000+ pulling on the same end of the rope to get what we deserve, LUAL was negotiating with 2 party's instead of one. Again, the silence was deafening on the CAL side. Unity only matters when they want something. LUAL has many Eastern guys, the silence was deafening for them too. Deja vu? BTW, I'm voting NO just trying to give the perspective from the outside looking in.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

I thought L-UAL pilots were the strongest ALPA pilots in the industry. All I hear from them on this TA is we have to vote for it. They are accepting a subpar contract because they are scared. What happened to “We are the best and deserve no less than the best?”

No. We are not accepting the fact that you want to "harvest" our flying. Flying that is not yours. I'm voting yes. Yes to one seniority group, one union and ending the bickering.

 

[Flopgut]

I don't necessarily disagree with most of that Chppr... I would like to draw out that you might further explain what you've said right there about pay banding: You acknowledge that DAL has pay banding for 777/747, but fail to point ou that it is not what you guys were initially insisting on?! Baron (and all of us) were taking issue with UAL ALPA wanting the 747 alone at the top. CAL ALPA being adverse to, and fighting, a UAL ALPA SLI grab does not mean we are trying to make our own. We might have ended up with the 764 below the 747/777, but because JH over reached we ended up with more airplanes banded. Keep in mind, if you were bringing $300/hr with that 744? Sure, put it at the top. But you were not. It pays WAY below what the 764 does.

Got news for you UAL guys: This isn't going to let up. Start with resonable positions on the remaining issues and don't vote for a TA just based on big bad JP hiding under your bed. There may be enough here to say yes to, but if you think you'll be happier moving onto SLI because it's going to be a windfall for you? Good luck with that.

Additionally, with regard to PS and the traning issue and such, when have you guys offered to fall on your sword for us?