Weak L-UAL pilots

[Continental]

How many widebody aircraft did CAL have before the merger? Was it 16 oh wait 34 widebodies? Now your bitching? Shut up wimp! Fred and his friends like Lorenzo will not be getting our rightful flying like you and your senior pilots did to Eastern. Also there is NO guarantee those 737s are coming to LUAL if the TPA expires. But we won't be letting that happen with our YES vote!

I glad my "No" vote cancels your weak yes vote

 

[Flopgut]

What, if any, provisions of the TPA expire in the event the TA is not ratified?

The company would be able to terminate 4-D Domiciles, 7-A s-UAL Furlough, 7-C Flying ratios, 7-D Base protections, and 9.


Like CAL would not just come in and harvest more flying. MY A$$!

Come on! I think we've both made the point that each airline has cross mingled into each other's flying, right?

Are you absolutely sure you have to buy into this fear you've got? Our guys feel strongly that it only required a TA, not a ratification (and we actually win arbitrations). Your guys are being nebulous and scared. Yeah, ok, we have less to lose (really?!) so don't belive me. Contact your reps (and your MC) with this question: The NMB has said they will NOT allow a status quo change. Does that not mean the T&PA will be extended? Remember, eventually Lorenzo got banned from the airline business. The NMB will be a backstop to this deal going like EAL.

 

[LXApilot]

How about objecting to pay banding just based on the Weight/Pay productivity scale from the Kelly Act? Read Joe Doniac's article from ALPA magazine from last Spring for an explanation. Remember that this is what contract 2000 was based on.

 

[chppr5]

I would say that begrudging us our effort to get PS last year was a bit excessive. Additionally, I think to insist on 70% of the 450 million was as well. These are things we should have been more together on that are not JP's fault. You probably have not handled JP too well, but you're also guilty of capitulating to JH. He's got an agenda and it only includes his needs. You of all people should see this.

OK, I'll try this one more time then I'm out.
- We were not begrudging you PS. We, UALMC and CALMC, were trying to use the leverage, of not paying you PS and the ensuing LCAL melt down on FEB 14th 2012, to expand and extend the T&PA provisions (which would have taken one of the fears out of the equation now). Then your MC (and his cozy relationship with Abbott) went and settled a $100K grievance for $40M (at the expense of LUAL).

-The $450M was reduced to $400M (by UCH's last offer). The percentage of the distribution was the original agreement between JH,JP and UCH using the DAL differential from 2009-2012. This was NOT a lump sum distribution as you want to believe. This was RETRO!!!!!! 90% retro as of 08/01/12!!!!Agreed to BY JP and JH!!!! LUAL got the bigger % because the LUAL/DAL differential was larger than the LCAL/DAL differential AND LUAL had more pilots. It had NOTHING to do with LUAL just wanting more just because!!!!!!

I guess revisionist history is the word of the day. The more I go back and forth with you the more I understand the yes voters. (just vote yes to get rid of the LCAL influence) Thankfully I have some good friends over there that are logical and their opinions are formed with facts and not revisionist history.

 

[Flopgut]

How about objecting to pay banding just based on the Weight/Pay productivity scale from the Kelly Act? Read Joe Doniac's article from ALPA magazine from last Spring for an explanation. Remember that this is what contract 2000 was based on.

Are we all not pretty much done with ALPA after this?

-The $450M was reduced to $400M (by UCH's last offer). The percentage of the distribution was the original agreement between JH,JP and UCH using the DAL differential from 2009-2012. This was NOT a lump sum distribution as you want to believe. This was RETRO!!!!!! 90% retro as of 08/01/12!!!!Agreed to BY JP and JH!!!! LUAL got the bigger % because the LUAL/DAL differential was larger than the LCAL/DAL differential AND LUAL had more pilots. It had NOTHING to do with LUAL just wanting more just because!!!!!!

Ok, I'll admit that's the first I've heard it explained that way.

Help me understand something. 30,000 ft view: In the past, if you brought more to a merger it meant you got more. Or that you at least kept more of what you brought. (That was most certainly the past UAL ALPA viewpoint) Why is it now that by bringing more to this merger, we should get less? This $400 million is sort of a good example. We get less because we have more?! I've heard claims that you guys want some extra $ because we have a frozen A plan. Seriously. Flip that around and look at the claim that your lower paying airplanes should equate to you doing better in SLI?! Which is it? You want more of the $400 million because you made less, but we don't account for W2 on SLI? I think you'll look back on this and see that if it appeared JP flipped around on some issues, it was because of this disparity. What say you?

 

[chppr5]

Are we all not pretty much done with ALPA after this?



Ok, I'll admit that's the first I've heard it explained that way.

Help me understand something. 30,000 ft view: In the past, if you brought more to a merger it meant you got more. Or that you at least kept more of what you brought. (That was most certainly the past UAL ALPA viewpoint) Why is it now that by bringing more to this merger, we should get less? This $400 million is sort of a good example. We get less because we have more?! I've heard claims that you guys want some extra $ because we have a frozen A plan. Seriously. Flip that around and look at the claim that your lower paying airplanes should equate to you doing better in SLI?! Which is it? You want more of the $400 million because you made less, but we don't account for W2 on SLI? I think you'll look back on this and see that if it appeared JP flipped around on some issues, it was because of this disparity. What say you?

Why do you continue to infuse other aspects into the retro argument. it's just RETRO, has nothing to do with what either side brought to the table, it should have nothing to do with the SLI argument. It was agreed to by the JNC, UALMC and the CALMC that they were going to negotiate for FULL retro back at the beginning of Joint negotiations. If they decided to negotiate for a signing bonus then this would be as you say, divided among the pilots. Your EWR reps insisted that they were going to bring the group FULL RETRO, your MC kept saying FULL RETRO (I heard him with my own ears at the joint MC's road show) . The proposals the JNC passed across the table to UCH said RETRO. This has been negotiated as retro since the summer of 2010. The agreed upon distribution by JH, JP and UCH was 90% retro as of Aug 1 2012 based upon the DAL differential. Then the flip flop with JP occurred in Sept 2012. Just because it's not FULL retro does not make it a lump sum it's still retro. It's pretty obvious from the outset that the LUAL group was going to get more, our pay rates were less than yours, simple math. I'm sorry, if we were negotiating for a signing bonus from the beginning of joint negotiations then I would whole heartedly agree with you.

 

[dicko]

Tough spot you're all in.

If only both pilot groups belonged to the same National union, with the ability to lead and coordinate the fight for a contract. Wouldn't that be something.

 

[Flopgut]

Why do you continue to infuse other aspects into the retro argument. it's just RETRO, has nothing to do with what either side brought to the table, it should have nothing to do with the SLI argument. It was agreed to by the JNC, UALMC and the CALMC that they were going to negotiate for FULL retro back at the beginning of Joint negotiations. If they decided to negotiate for a signing bonus then this would be as you say, divided among the pilots. Your EWR reps insisted that they were going to bring the group FULL RETRO, your MC kept saying FULL RETRO (I heard him with my own ears at the joint MC's road show) . The proposals the JNC passed across the table to UCH said RETRO. This has been negotiated as retro since the summer of 2010. The agreed upon distribution by JH, JP and UCH was 90% retro as of Aug 1 2012 based upon the DAL differential. Then the flip flop with JP occurred in Sept 2012. Just because it's not FULL retro does not make it a lump sum it's still retro. It's pretty obvious from the outset that the LUAL group was going to get more, our pay rates were less than yours, simple math. I'm sorry, if we were negotiating for a signing bonus from the beginning of joint negotiations then I would whole heartedly agree with you.

Ok. So far we've just discussed "retro" (not the term I see). And we've rehashed the 744 and pay banding. And we touched on the fact that you're getting twice the raise we are. I see where you're coming from, I don't fully agree, but I understand your point. My question is: what do we get? Anything? Nothing? You seem fairly level headed, are we suppose to be happy with dry cleaning?

 

[CEO silly sap]

Tough spot you're all in.

If only both pilot groups belonged to the same National union, with the ability to lead and coordinate the fight for a contract. Wouldn't that be something.

IMAGINE, pilots actually helping themselves and working together.


Best Quote of this entire thread, " OUR FLYING", really and you own the airline? Oh thats right you bought it from Steven Wolf....nice job.

 

[chppr5]

Ok. So far we've just discussed "retro" (not the term I see). And we've rehashed the 744 and pay banding. And we touched on the fact that you're getting twice the raise we are. I see where you're coming from, I don't fully agree, but I understand your point. My question is: what do we get? Anything? Nothing? You seem fairly level headed, are we suppose to be happy with dry cleaning?

That's for you to decide. I just wanted to put to bed the perception of a weak LUAL group. Some have negotiating fatigue, tired of negotiating with two other parties when it should be one. I will vote on the merits of the TA, no outside influence, the here and now. Gook luck to us all....We'll need it.

 

[ATRCA]

Maybe the UAL group is growing tired of getting blindsided by JP. Maybe this group is willing to live with a subpar contract for 4+ years to finally get rid of the management shill, something the CAL pilots should have done years ago. By not confronting JP and his minions shows the CAL pilots approve and support his antics. Not one motion floored to recall, not one "vote of no confidence", a failed recall of his biggest supporters Barron and Cook. Maybe UAL guys ARE the trade unionists everyone thought they were, willing to take it in the back side for 4 more years to get rid of a management wannabe that holds the Master Chairman position at CAL. The UAL pilots don't control JP, the CAL pilots do. CAL wants unity now for a NO vote, where were you for the last 2 1/2 years when your MC was the speed bump in the process? Your silence was deafening. If this TA passes you're as much to blame as the YES voters!

Coward! You guys turned out to be a bunch of pussies! There's no hiding it now. Just own it!

 

[Flopgut]

That's for you to decide.

Seriously? What do you mean by that? There is literally nothing left after you've gotten thru describing what you think you're owed out of this deal. That's not happening pal.

 

[Jetjockey]

Tough spot you're all in.

If only both pilot groups belonged to the same National union, with the ability to lead and coordinate the fight for a contract. Wouldn't that be something.

Whatever gave you the impression ALPA was a national union? It's an ASSOCIATION.

We let the ship sail in 1976 on becoming a true national union.

 

[chppr5]

Seriously? What do you mean by that? There is literally nothing left after you've gotten thru describing what you think you're owed out of this deal. That's not happening pal.

I didn't say I was owed anything, read my posts. I said I would vote on the merits of the contract. Pull up your big boy pants and make your own decision.

 

[ChrisJT6]

It's difficult for you guys to understand, but this is what it feels like to have to negotiate from equal ground. You don't get to hang CAL off a cliff and then cut the rope like you did Frontier and threatened to do to USAir and America West. Conversely, no one is trying to take you down the Eastern road. You've got replacement airplanes on order and a T&PA agreement that will NOT get pulled out from underneath you.

What do you expect out of the sCAL Master Chair? Just hand you everything? Advocate you guys as a first choice to the detriment of CAL pilots? Come on, he's doing exactly what he should with regard to the pilots he works for. Case in point: The 450 million. JH says: I want 70% of it for sUAL pilots. JP: How about 60%? JH: F-you greedy SOBs, I demand 70%! So we go to arbitration, and you get 55%, even less than JP was going to settle for. Peirce was being fair, Heppner was over-reaching... This sort of thing ought to change your opinion about your own MC...

Not aware of any pilot group UAL pilots attempted to screw but am aware of the huge staple of People's Express. You think Fred has your best interest in mind when he eggs on his boys to vote this down so he can rid the company of sUAL crews. I'd rather change careers that get ahead being controlled by the Harvester, Farmer "The Harvester" Fred.

 

[Flopgut]

Well, Idk bud. Appears pretty clear right here in this thread that you think LUAL pilots deserved the whole merger on a silver platter. (we need to end pay banding to help you, need to arrange "retro" so you get most of it, need to look the other way on the extremely low pay your widebodies garner, need to offer some extra money for you because we didn't give up our whole A fund, skip getting any mileage out of OUR 762 greivance so You can get something, and the list goes on...) That attitude is the the reason what has happened, has happened. Not JP.

 

[ChrisJT6]

Coward! You guys turned out to be a bunch of pussies! There's no hiding it now. Just own it!

You're right tough guy...I am sure we all wish we had the courage to drive a French Prop job. Get a life!
Might have had a shot at striking for a good contract if half the team's fearless leader didn't have his head buried in Fred's bum.

 

[Flopgut]

Not aware of any pilot group UAL pilots attempted to screw.

Then you need to read up on what you guys did to the old Frontier Airlines pilots! F-ing ASAP! Because what's left of that airline is here working at CAL.

So many of you guys do NOT know the history. It is a huge problem. Or perhaps it's because you're so arrogant you don't care? I can't figure out which one it is, stupid or arrogant?

 

[ChrisJT6]

Then you need to read up on what you guys did to the old Frontier Airlines pilots! F-ing ASAP! Because what's left of that airline is here working at CAL.

So many of you guys do NOT know the history. It is a huge problem. Or perhaps it's because you're so arrogant you don't care? I can't figure out which one it is, stupid or arrogant?

FLOPGUNT!
No, I just haven't flown w any old Frontier CAL pilots yet but have multiple People's Express pilots...just pointing out the 1000 pilots CAL bones hard that you left out of YOUR jab. And you call me stupid and arrogant...genius! You brought it up half cocked and I called you on it f-face. Flew w plenty of old Frontier pilots at United, the difference is we didn't promise them arbitration then bone them and loose a lawsuit...your rose shades must be sweet.

 

[eaglesview]

FLOPGUNT!
No, I just haven't flown w any old Frontier CAL pilots yet but have multiple People's Express pilots...just pointing out the 1000 pilots CAL bones hard that you left out of YOUR jab. And you call me stupid and arrogant...genius! You brought it up half cocked and I called you on it f-face. Flew w plenty of old Frontier pilots at United, the difference is we didn't promise them arbitration then bone them and loose a lawsuit...your rose shades must be sweet.

Wasting your time with that guy. He's been bought and sold buy JP and Abbott.