"What's next now for AA/US possible merger'

[ALGFLYR]

Isn't this where history and law aren't on USAPA's side? I don't know of a single case where a change of representation released the new representation from the obligations of the previous. Do the USAPA paid lawyers have backing or are these new arguments?

The representational change didn't release USAPA from the obligations left from ALPA. Both ALPA contracts are still in place and legally binding on the pilot groups and the company. The Transition Agreement (TA) is still a legal document that governs how the East and West pilot groups and contracts will be combined. The TA also governs how the 2 seniority lists will be combined once the two groups combine into one group under US Airways. That is defined under a very specific set of circumstances that must happen between the two groups and US Airways management. Those conditions will never be realized if a merger occurs with American.

 

[General Lee]

Loser? Really GL? I challenge you to find any post I have ever posted that I resorted to name calling. I welcome participating in a civilized debate and will engage in such until it becomes a childish bout of name calling and the like.

To me it seems that if an argument is presented and the best someone can come back with is calling names and trying to pull someone down to that level, the name caller is either uneducated about the subject matter, or knows he is wrong and resorts to calling someone names in a childish fashion to make themselves feel better... Either way, I suppose I shall go back into lurking mode...

Look, you can TRY to rationalize it all you want, but your group "pulled a fast one" on your other side, after you both signed up for BINDING arbitration. Your GROUP voted out ALPA because of the BINDING AWARD, all because you didn't like the outcome. That reflects poorly ON YOUR WHOLE GROUP. We all know it, and so do you. So, I am looking forward to restitution for the West side. Really, you guys screwed up. Didn't Sulley talk about integrity? You guys lost it when you didn't HONOR what you agreed to in the first place. There you go, no name calling. But, the truth.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Isn't this where history and law aren't on USAPA's side? I don't know of a single case where a change of representation released the new representation from the obligations of the previous. Do the USAPA paid lawyers have backing or are these new arguments?

The Easties are saying "I divorced Sally, but because I just married Wendy I still can drive Sally's truck that I lost in the divorce settlement....."


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Whataburger]

...about integrity? You guys lost it But, the truth...



Bye Bye---General Lee

Integrity? The kind when you tell someone you will pay them $1 for a widget, and they let you have the widget. Then, you only pay them $.20 for the widget when the bills come due??

 

[Bad-Andy]

The Easties are saying "I divorced Sally, but because I just married Wendy I still can drive Sally's truck that I lost in the divorce settlement....."


Bye Bye---General Lee

Actually, Gen Lee, you're a little off on your analogy here. It would be more akin to "I was engaged to Sally, but we never set a date and walked down the aisle. But, we did buy a house together -- both signed the mortgage papers. Now I want to live in the house because Wendy and I are getting married..."

Still a moral wrong (to want the house without paying), but since it was only an engagement, not a marriage (never finalized the agreement), not necessarily a legal wrong (yet). We have to wait for the court to decide -- can we get the house and is SALLY SOL? Or do we owe Sally for her half of the house?

Hopefully it will be decided tomorrow (but I'm not holding my breath...).

 

[General Lee]

Integrity? The kind when you tell someone you will pay them $1 for a widget, and they let you have the widget. Then, you only pay them $.20 for the widget when the bills come due??

Look Stalin, everyone and any company can go BK, that's legal. Trying to dodge a binding award, that isn't. Good try. You probably will go personal BK yourself someday, so get back to us and tell us how it went. Btw, you guys also treated your AT brothers like poop, so I can kinda see how you might not think its a big deal. Makes sense now. Enjoy your stagnation.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Actually, Gen Lee, you're a little off on your analogy here. It would be more akin to "I was engaged to Sally, but we never set a date and walked down the aisle. But, we did buy a house together -- both signed the mortgage papers. Now I want to live in the house because Wendy and I are getting married..."

Still a moral wrong (to want the house without paying), but since it was only an engagement, not a marriage (never finalized the agreement), not necessarily a legal wrong (yet). We have to wait for the court to decide -- can we get the house and is SALLY SOL? Or do we owe Sally for her half of the house?

Hopefully it will be decided tomorrow (but I'm not holding my breath...).

That might be a better analogy, but your group did accept the binding agreement prior to the award. Your MEC chair signed the papers for you. You all agreed on the arbitrator. Because you didn't agree with the award, the union was kicked out as an end around to the award. That is just plain dirty. I hope it is decided tomorrow, but if this act of denying an award is allowed, all arbitration in the future will be in question, because everyone will be allowed to find an end around to avoid it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Whataburger]

You probably will go personal BK yourself someday,



Bye Bye---General Lee

huh? what?

 

[Bad-Andy]

That might be a better analogy, but your group did accept the binding agreement prior to the award. Your MEC chair signed the papers for you. You all agreed on the arbitrator. Because you didn't agree with the award, the union was kicked out as an end around to the award. That is just plain dirty. I hope it is decided tomorrow, but if this act of denying an award is allowed, all arbitration in the future will be in question, because everyone will be allowed to find an end around to avoid it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I agree. I was just pointing out that the loophole that is being exploited (or attempted to be exploited) is that the deal was never finalized -- i.e. a JCBA as required by the Transition Agreement. I'm not arguing that its right, just that it exists...

 

[The Drizzle]

The representational change didn't release USAPA from the obligations left from ALPA. Both ALPA contracts are still in place and legally binding on the pilot groups and the company. The Transition Agreement (TA) is still a legal document that governs how the East and West pilot groups and contracts will be combined. The TA also governs how the 2 seniority lists will be combined once the two groups combine into one group under US Airways. That is defined under a very specific set of circumstances that must happen between the two groups and US Airways management. Those conditions will never be realized if a merger occurs with American.

I see. That's a hell of a tightrope.

 

[Flopgut]

Integrity? The kind when you tell someone you will pay them $1 for a widget, and they let you have the widget. Then, you only pay them $.20 for the widget when the bills come due??

"Great customer service cannot overcome high costs" Herb Kelleher TexasMonthly

The pendulum is starting back the other way.

 

[Holy Shiite]

huh? what?

Guys, don't waste your time with this poser. He is probably being paid to stir up the pot on these forums.

 

[charlie2]

"pulled a fast one" on your other side,

Bye Bye---General Lee

Actually Private Lee we pulled a "slow one" and if Ms. Silver finally makes up her mind (she's pulling a slow one too) and her decision is that the ex-con, chug-a-lug dougweiser Parker (I hope we can someday get a non-drunk as a CEO) can't negotiate with unions then we will appeal. Then after a two or three year appeal we will then vote no to any contract that contains a violation of ALPA merger policy (the nic). You AWA guys are smarter than us. You win. Ha ha ha ha.

 

[charlie2]

That might be a better analogy, but your group did accept the binding agreement prior to the award. Your MEC chair signed the papers for you. You all agreed on the arbitrator. Because you didn't agree with the award, the union was kicked out as an end around to the award. That is just plain dirty. I hope it is decided tomorrow, but if this act of denying an award is allowed, all arbitration in the future will be in question, because everyone will be allowed to find an end around to avoid it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Private Lee this is business. It isn't personel so don't take it as such. There is no integrity in business at all. I own a business and you good folk from the south will screw me in a second if I let you so grow up. You must have been an "employee" your whole life but if you ever try to run a business you need to grow a spine. Our ex-con ceo has a spine and will use it against us no matter how missy silver decides if she will ever make a decision. Dirty? Are you for real? The airline business has always been "clean".

 

[General Lee]

Private Lee this is business. It isn't personel so don't take it as such. There is no integrity in business at all. I own a business and you good folk from the south will screw me in a second if I let you so grow up. You must have been an "employee" your whole life but if you ever try to run a business you need to grow a spine. Our ex-con ceo has a spine and will use it against us no matter how missy silver decides if she will ever make a decision. Dirty? Are you for real? The airline business has always been "clean".

GROW UP? Look who is talking. Those same arbitrators also do salary disputes for NFL players and teams. If the team doesn't like the award, do they just not pay? NO, they pay up. You guys decided to play ball, but walk away like complete sore losers because you didn't like the decision. You need to grow up. LOOOZERS. I can't wait to see what the APA would do with you guys if another SLI came up. Your guy would say "Come on, THIS TIME WE WILL PLAY BY THE RULES......." Riiiiiight.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Actually Private Lee we pulled a "slow one" and if Ms. Silver finally makes up her mind (she's pulling a slow one too) and her decision is that the ex-con, chug-a-lug dougweiser Parker (I hope we can someday get a non-drunk as a CEO) can't negotiate with unions then we will appeal. Then after a two or three year appeal we will then vote no to any contract that contains a violation of ALPA merger policy (the nic). You AWA guys are smarter than us. You win. Ha ha ha ha.

Thank GAWD I am not at USAir, your combo is a train wreck. And it looks like any combo with AA would also result in the same. Your career has already tanked, and it's about to get worse. I do win, I make more than most of your Captains as an FO. I do have friends at AWA, and eventually as you old guys retire in the East, they will win too. Keep holding out for the arbitrated award, and hit your earning potential, in your last few years. Real smart Grandpa!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[MCDU]

West got spanked. Private Poser has no credibilty except with the PFT generation.
M

 

[charlie2]

GROW UP? Look who is talking. Those same arbitrators also do salary disputes for NFL players and teams. If the team doesn't like the award, do they just not pay? NO, they pay up. You guys decided to play ball, but walk away like complete sore losers because you didn't like the decision. You need to grow up. LOOOZERS. I can't wait to see what the APA would do with you guys if another SLI came up. Your guy would say "Come on, THIS TIME WE WILL PLAY BY THE RULES......." Riiiiiight.


Bye Bye---General Lee

So if you pay a crap load of money to a union you say it's a gamble? Craps...Roulette? You get NOTHING for your dues? I thought WRONGLY that my dues money got me a little protection...ooooppps. I respect NFL players as much as my ex-con ceo.

 

[General Lee]

West got spanked. Private Poser has no credibilty except with the PFT generation.
M

Was the NIC award thrown out? No? Then it will follow the group. It may take awhile to be implemented, but it wasn't thrown out. Looks like your union can still negotiate, but if the company uses a seniority list other than the NIC award, then they will be free to sue. Overall, your airline LOSES, including YOU.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

So if you pay a crap load of money to a union you say it's a gamble? Craps...Roulette? You get NOTHING for your dues? I thought WRONGLY that my dues money got me a little protection...ooooppps. I respect NFL players as much as my ex-con ceo.

YOUR GUY at the Union decided it was fair to allow Nicelau to do the arbitration. He speaks for you. You elected him. TOO BAD. When someone signs up for something, especially something BINDING, you do it. You didn't have to do it initially, but YOUR GUY signed you up for it. You as a group LOST. Then, you didn't like the award, so like wheenies you tried to avoid it, while everyone was watching. I guess you also don't respect arbitrators apparently, and the APA I'm sure has taken notice. Your group is not trustworthy at all.....and is the laughing stock of the industry.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[charlie2]

You are correct sir. We lost.

 

[General Lee]

You are correct sir. We lost.

You are going to continue to lose. There will be no new deals or new seniority lists until the Westies get the NIC. You can try to change it or implement a new one, but once you do they are free to sue, and if it is "ripe", you will lose a lot more. So, more status quo, and that means lower than average pay.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

YOUR GUY at the Union decided it was fair to allow Nicelau to do the arbitration. He speaks for you. You elected him. TOO BAD. When someone signs up for something, especially something BINDING, you do it. You didn't have to do it initially, but YOUR GUY signed you up for it. You as a group LOST. Then, you didn't like the award, so like wheenies you tried to avoid it, while everyone was watching. I guess you also don't respect arbitrators apparently, and the APA I'm sure has taken notice. Your group is not trustworthy at all.....and is the laughing stock of the industry.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You are way too wrapped up in this to just be a Delta pilot. Either you are shacking with a AWA pilot, you are just a paid instigator, or you are the original "Move2Clt", natural born hater.

After seven years, the Nic abortion remains irrelevant and USAPA is free to bargain as they see fit, and the West can someday sue after DUI Doug finally agrees to finish negotiating and a contract is ratified by ALL LCC pilots.

 

[General Lee]

You are way too wrapped up in this to just be a Delta pilot. Either you are shacking with a AWA pilot, you are just a paid instigator, or you are the original "Move2Clt", natural born hater.

After seven years, the Nic abortion remains irrelevant and USAPA is free to bargain as they see fit, and the West can someday sue after DUI Doug finally agrees to finish negotiating and a contract is ratified by ALL LCC pilots.

I have friends that are AWA pilots, and we all think you guys are the biggest bunch of wheenies around. What is humorous is the fact that NEXT you will try to negotiate with a larger group, the APA, who will shred you to pieces and hopefully teach you all a lesson. But, the NIC award is still out there, not thrown out, and eventually the Westies will prevail. You can try to negotiate with Dougie, and see what happens, but when you submit the seniority list to the APA for yet another SLI, that is where this will come up again, and that will be your problem. They will sue when it is appropriate, and they will eventually win. Have fun with substandard pay!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[MCDU]

So glad you responded to Private Poser. That is exactly what you are. You got no clue on labor law and the inner workings of a internal union propsal that even alpa said was negoitable. You Private Poser are a big L.

M

 

[General Lee]

So glad you responded to Private Poser. That is exactly what you are. You got no clue on labor law and the inner workings of a internal union propsal that even alpa said was negoitable. You Private Poser are a big L.

M

Thanks Judge Mathis. What you still don't admit to is that the NIC award is waiting for the AWA group to be "ripe", and that will happen when another seniority list is sumbitted. So, with a possible "better" merger on the horizon, your group will have to come up with something for the APA, and they can't wait to cut your smaller group up. You think your little USAPA won't be chewed up by the APA if they get a chance? They know your group already disregarded an arbitrated award, and they won't put up with that again. So, it will be fun for a lot of us to watch your group continue to be a major train wreck, all because you couldn't play fair. Have fun! Popcorn ready! Your whole deal doesn't affect me one bit, but it is fun to watch.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BeCareful!]

Hey MCDU, you should treat the General with respect. Look at how many posts he has: 16,188!!! That's important! And if he says ripe, then, well, that's rotten. And if he says the Nic follows, well then, check your six! And if he.....well, you get the idea. I mean, really, 16,188 posts....he must know what he's talking about.

Congrats to US Air pilots!

 

[pave driver]

It's time to move on and support the APA as we will soon need to all pull in one direction. The final outcome will make all sides a little jaded. Management is sure to have the APA in the crosshairs. Time to move on ladies and gentlemen.

 

[ableone]

So glad you responded to Private Poser. That is exactly what you are. You got no clue on labor law and the inner workings of a internal union propsal that even alpa said was negoitable. You Private Poser are a big L.

M

As usual MCDU has little to no understanding of what the case was even about.

The company was asking the court to provide them with a clear cut answer so they don't have to be the bad guy.

They wanted the court to say either;

1. You are not a party to the transition agreement that you signed earlier and are immune to liability should you discard an arbitrated award. This would allow the company to negotiate with USAPA without fear of losing an otherwise strong case filed by the west pilots.

or

2. You absolutely can not deviate from the arbitrated award. In which case they could go to USAPA and say; "Hey we would like to talk about your DOH list but our hands are tied..."

The court has essentially said "The 9th circuit said the courts can't step in and make a decision until after an agreement (contract) is ratified in which case the interested parties can come back to court and sue on the merits. (Addington)

The court punted so the company's ass is still out in the breeze.

It's not a win or a loss for the west (or the east). It puts us exactly where we were the day before the company filed the declaratory judgment request with Judge Silver.

The only party who came close to getting "spanked" was the company. They DID NOT get what they wanted.

The company will appeal this to the 9th.

 

[Turtle21]

As usual MCDU has little to no understanding of what the case was even about.

The company was asking the court to provide them with a clear cut answer so they don't have to be the bad guy.

They wanted the court to say either;

1. You are not a party to the transition agreement that you signed earlier and are immune to liability should you discard an arbitrated award. This would allow the company to negotiate with USAPA without fear of losing an otherwise strong case filed by the west pilots.

or

2. You absolutely can not deviate from the arbitrated award. In which case they could go to USAPA and say; "Hey we would like to talk about your DOH list but our hands are tied..."

The court has essentially said "The 9th circuit said the courts can't step in and make a decision until after an agreement (contract) is ratified in which case the interested parties can come back to court and sue on the merits. (Addington)

The court punted so the company's ass is still out in the breeze.

It's not a win or a loss for the west (or the east). It puts us exactly where we were the day before the company filed the declaratory judgment request with Judge Silver.

The only party who came close to getting "spanked" was the company. They DID NOT get what they wanted.

The company will appeal this to the 9th.

It appears that USAPA received what they asked for in their motion..

They wanted the court to reiterate the finding of the 9th, that USAPA was free to bargain as they see fit according to their RLA authorities, and they wanted the judge to deny LCC of any assurance of immunity. Any future West suit has an incredibly high hill to climb if a merger with AA occurs.


If a merge with AA come crashing in on the scene I think DUI will move along and not work too much on an appeal, if no merger DUI will undoubtedly work long and hard at further delay on account of an appeal.