SWAPA looking to capture more Capt seats

[fam62c]

I'm not surprised at the "B scale " proposal. By allowing the AT guys to fly for a division of the company at a lower pay scale for years the camel got it's nose under the tent and management knows that this is something that can be sold. They know that the people already on property will allow this to happen if there's something in it for them or if it prevents them from losing something. This is why you never allow multiple levels of compensation. Now SWAPA will have to either give in to the flattened, lengthened payscale concept or burn up negotiating capital that could be used for other things to prevent it. Get ready for a negotiation that will go on for many years like it does in the rest of the industry. SWA isn't going to give the pilots anything else, they will be lucky to hold on to what they have.

 

[redflyer65]

The B-scale was floated to make it LOOK like they would take something. SWAPA won't agree to anything like that. All they have to do is point to the Dispatch agreement and the rise of the Executive VP level with 'new' compensation package that it entails. These are just opening positions that equate to sabre rattling. It's also easy to point out that Gary decided to buy a company and only wanted 30-40% of it. His choice, not ours.

 

[General Lee]

I'm not surprised at the "B scale " proposal. By allowing the AT guys to fly for a division of the company at a lower pay scale for years the camel got it's nose under the tent and management knows that this is something that can be sold. They know that the people already on property will allow this to happen if there's something in it for them or if it prevents them from losing something. This is why you never allow multiple levels of compensation. Now SWAPA will have to either give in to the flattened, lengthened payscale concept or burn up negotiating capital that could be used for other things to prevent it. Get ready for a negotiation that will go on for many years like it does in the rest of the industry. SWA isn't going to give the pilots anything else, they will be lucky to hold on to what they have.

I agree. If management wanted a "B-scale", then I doubt they wanted to increase the "A scale." I see SWAPA trying to keep status quo as long as they can, and negotiations will continue for a long while.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[texman]

I don't think any new hire at SWA should be on a B Scale. We are no different, we just got here first.

 

[ngsp]

leave me in my position so that i don't have to commute to the west coast and i will fly for the rest of my career on airtran payscales. the swapa brats just don't get it. it was never about the money. we just wanted to feel like we were wanted and appreciated and not feel like an outsider. you know, the whole one LUV thing, but i guess there is just not enough toys for all the kids. so here we are, 1700 pissed off airtran guys, 3000 pissed of southwest f/o's just to make 300 or so senior f/o's happy with a forever junior upgrade. that is some dumb a** math in anyones book. they were so hell bent on taking our captain seats that they never considered what it was going to do to the bottom 50% of the chosen ones and now they are mad after reality sets in. breaks my heart buttercup.

i look forward to the fact that i can make someones life miserable by bumping them out of their chosen base as a senior f/o. it makes me smile everytime i see an f/o in the concourse to know that i can take his position at will. the guys that are upgrading will be in OAK for a very long time when 1/1/15 rolls around. we will start taking back what was unjustly stolen from us. you can keep your culture. we all know the truth and it is not pretty. i will show up, shut up, cooperate and graduate, but don't expect many of the airtran guys to support a bunch of self centered, spoiled rotten, never had a bad day in their career bullies.

we wanted date of hire and swapa wanted us unemployed. we got right down the middle of the two with alot of help from our new step dad.

you guys keep telling us to suck it up and live by what we voted on. i agree, but take a long look in the mirror and take you own advice.

signed
a soon to be senior f/o with a smile on my face.

ps. and steve chase can kiss my ****

 

[jonjuan]

I agree. If management wanted a "B-scale", then I doubt they wanted to increase the "A scale." I see SWAPA trying to keep status quo as long as they can, and negotiations will continue for a long while.


Bye Bye---General Lee

And that both makes you happy and a d-bag.

 

[redflyer65]

Date of Hire was a pipe dream. If ALPA sold that to you, then you need a refund. I thought Agreement One was better for all, but it's water under the bridge at this point.

 

[Juniority]

leave me in my position so that i don't have to commute to the west coast and i will fly for the rest of my career on airtran payscales. the swapa brats just don't get it. it was never about the money. we just wanted to feel like we were wanted and appreciated and not feel like an outsider. you know, the whole one LUV thing, but i guess there is just not enough toys for all the kids. so here we are, 1700 pissed off airtran guys, 3000 pissed of southwest f/o's just to make 300 or so senior f/o's happy with a forever junior upgrade. that is some dumb a** math in anyones book. they were so hell bent on taking our captain seats that they never considered what it was going to do to the bottom 50% of the chosen ones and now they are mad after reality sets in. breaks my heart buttercup.

i look forward to the fact that i can make someones life miserable by bumping them out of their chosen base as a senior f/o. it makes me smile everytime i see an f/o in the concourse to know that i can take his position at will. the guys that are upgrading will be in OAK for a very long time when 1/1/15 rolls around. we will start taking back what was unjustly stolen from us. you can keep your culture. we all know the truth and it is not pretty. i will show up, shut up, cooperate and graduate, but don't expect many of the airtran guys to support a bunch of self centered, spoiled rotten, never had a bad day in their career bullies.

we wanted date of hire and swapa wanted us unemployed. we got right down the middle of the two with alot of help from our new step dad.

you guys keep telling us to suck it up and live by what we voted on. i agree, but take a long look in the mirror and take you own advice.

signed
a soon to be senior f/o with a smile on my face.

ps. and steve chase can kiss my ****

Hope you're able to relax and get through a three or four day without blowing up the cockpit.

Chances are the guy sitting to your left had next to nothing to do with putting you in your current situation and he probably just wants to enjoy his Starbucks and get to the hotel on time (or if it's a PM trip, anywhere less than 2 hours late).

 

[humveedriver]

I think S.C.'s little update would have been fine if he left out the upgrade part. How can he be that much of a clown? Doesn't somebody in SWAPA help him with these releases? I thought the whole thing was pretty good till I got to the upgrade part, and then I was like; " Dude! That was so 10 months ago!"

 

[vv100]

leave me in my position so that i don't have to commute to the west coast and i will fly for the rest of my career on airtran payscales. the swapa brats just don't get it. it was never about the money. we just wanted to feel like we were wanted and appreciated and not feel like an outsider. you know, the whole one LUV thing, but i guess there is just not enough toys for all the kids. so here we are, 1700 pissed off airtran guys, 3000 pissed of southwest f/o's just to make 300 or so senior f/o's happy with a forever junior upgrade. that is some dumb a** math in anyones book. they were so hell bent on taking our captain seats that they never considered what it was going to do to the bottom 50% of the chosen ones and now they are mad after reality sets in. breaks my heart buttercup.

i look forward to the fact that i can make someones life miserable by bumping them out of their chosen base as a senior f/o. it makes me smile everytime i see an f/o in the concourse to know that i can take his position at will. the guys that are upgrading will be in OAK for a very long time when 1/1/15 rolls around. we will start taking back what was unjustly stolen from us. you can keep your culture. we all know the truth and it is not pretty. i will show up, shut up, cooperate and graduate, but don't expect many of the airtran guys to support a bunch of self centered, spoiled rotten, never had a bad day in their career bullies.

we wanted date of hire and swapa wanted us unemployed. we got right down the middle of the two with alot of help from our new step dad.

you guys keep telling us to suck it up and live by what we voted on. i agree, but take a long look in the mirror and take you own advice.

signed
a soon to be senior f/o with a smile on my face.

ps. and steve chase can kiss my ****

Stay classy Tranny.

Thanks for the left seat.

Biatch.

 

[dicko]

Stay classy Tranny.

Thanks for the left seat.

Biatch.

If the only way you can get a left seat, is by stealing it.. It's kinda like rape isn't it ? But if you're still gonna be happy knowing you had to take it and you didn't earn it. Then enjoy it. You guys must already be a little numb after stealing the Morris seats ? Or, do you just raise the lube strength, and use earplugs ?

Somebody needs to tell Steve Chase that it's not a B Scale, it would be a C Scale. He and his Sugar Daddy already handed the B Scale to AirTran.

Culture.

 

[Flyer1015]

Some of you SWA guys make me laugh. Truly classless. Of course, the entire bet/gamble is based on the assumption that SWA will lead in their payrates and work rules. More likely, over the next 10 years as the economy stays nimble and oil high, SWA will "right" itself back to industry average. About the only good thing Airtan guys have is looking forward to SWA pay/benefits. If those are diminished in any way, the whole point is lost. Personally, over the next 10 yrs, I wouldn't touch SWA with a 10 foot pole. More and better opportunities at the legacies with retirements.

 

[dicko]

I don't get why there are pilots saying they were deceived by management about the 717s staying?.

Which part of - They made all AirTran pilots carry out a master bid for 717 Captain and FO that included a new 717 Base. At the same time denying they were trying to sell off the 717s, as they were actively selling them ?

Did you not understand ?

 

[scoreboardII]

We told SWAPA this back at the conclusion of negotiations. Specifically, during the 2nd day of negotiations, Frank made the off-handed comment to Russ M asking how much management was going to expect back from SWAPA for carrying their water for them. Their response was, of course, "we're just trying to get a fair agreement", but towards the end of that exchange, they intimated that they would, indeed, be reminding SWAPA of that during Sec 6.

Later that week, at the post-negotiations cocktail hour at the bar before dinner, Frank asked them if they were prepared for the give-backs the company was going to expect as a result of carrying their water for them during negotiations. They seemed a little shocked. Yet here we are.


Good for SWAPA.


Knew this was coming... They will use the excuse that they need to "streamline" the benefits metrics for all employee groups, and not have different policies for different labor groups.


Also not a shocker. Welcome to a more traditional labor relationship with management. I believe they've been planning on moving this direction for a while. The days of industry-leading pay are likely over, with the lack of a clear cost advantage elsewhere, there will be considerable pressure to keep wages in-line with other SNB rates at other Majors (if not lower) as their bankruptcy contracts are re-negotiated.


Had an interesting discussion along these lines with Chuck M and Mike V at the employee appreciation party in LAX last month. While they didn't come out and say this is what they planned to do, they alluded to it heavily, asking the AAI pilots in attendance what would they think of wearing the SWA uniform on the AAI side of the partition, etc.

Remember what I said 6 months ago about the language in the SLI basically making all AAI pilots SWA pilots by virtue of the 1/1/15 date, single carrier representation, and everyone being on the SWA CBA at that date?

That's exactly what they intend to do, and it sounds like they've gotten the FAA to bite off on the idea of "flipping the switch" for the remaining pilots on 12/31/14, similar to what Delta and NWA did.

For the remaining 717 pilots it'll be a non-issue, simply more FOM alignment bulletins, a PC over the SWA FOM for the CA's, and a SWA I.D. issued.

We'll see what they do for the remaining 737 pilots, but if there are still unconverted 737's at AAI on 1/1/15 (estimates with the conversion schedule look like no more than 10 aircraft remaining on that date if the res system comes up close to on-schedule), they could simply send those 150-200 pilots home with pay at guarantee for 2-3 months (75 per month through class is doable if they use the early a.m. sim sessions) while they put a Southwest sticker on the planes until they can get the last of them through conversion and SWAPA pilots fly them.

Welcome to the first airline merger/acquisition of two non-bankruptcy airlines that has ever resulted in NOT A SINGLE CAPTAIN SEAT being retained by an otherwise healthy and profitable airline.

Unfortunately for us, now that this playbook is out there for management to do an end-run around McCaskill-Bond, future acquisitions by SWA will probably go immediately to the NMB seeking protection and assistance with the integration timeline and commitment, rather than signing a Process Agreement, making the entire thing tamper-proof by management and, thus, getting to go to arbitration without the threat of non-integration.

I personally hope SWA never attempts to acquire another airline, as I fear our F/O's would never see the CA seat after a fair integration with another carrier.

The problem, is they can't have any tails painted other than SWA post Jan 1 2015, or it violates our codeshare.

 

[scoreboardII]

(Lear's quote above was in reference to the company broaching the subject of working minimums to receive full company insurance)


Now to go off on a tangent unrelated to the subject line...

Actually, Lear, a LOT of pilots (and flight attendants) I talk to want exactly this, and I suspect it's primarily driven by the flight attendants' contract. They have literally hundreds of flight attendants who do absolutely NO work whatsoever. They give everything away every month. However, they collect up to five weeks of vacation pay per year, and enjoy all the benefits of working here, including very generous medical insurance for them and all their families. Since Southwest is self-insured (UHC just administers the program), all of this money comes out of the pockets of all of the rest of us. These are employees who provide nothing to the bottom line (and in the majority of these cases, never intend to), but collect money from Southwest. They, or their partners have other "real" jobs and just stay on the list for the benefits or so they won't have to buy expensive health insurance. So a lot of us support a intelligent and reasonable negotiated way to mitigate this.

I agree with you that the company wants to broach this with our union now group to ensure it's fairly applied to all. We just happen to be the union in contract talks right now. You can be sure it will be pushed heavily onto the flight attendants as well when their contract becomes amenable.

I couldn't tell from your tone whether your are for or against this, but it seems like you're against it. Can you expound?

Bubba

Bubba if this is true why doesn't the company just hire the exact amount of FA's they need to cover the lines? Oh, thats right, they do.

 

[scoreboardII]

I think S.C.'s little update would have been fine if he left out the upgrade part. How can he be that much of a clown? Doesn't somebody in SWAPA help him with these releases? I thought the whole thing was pretty good till I got to the upgrade part, and then I was like; " Dude! That was so 10 months ago!"

unfortunately our comm guy is sort of like a clown getting out of the clown car: amazing to watch, but pretty ridiculous after the tenth or so attempt.

 

[scoreboardII]

Which part of - They made all Airatran pilots carry out a master bid for 717 Captain and FO that included a new 717 Base. At the same time denying they were trying to sell off the 717s, as they were actively selling them ?

Did you not understand ?

The "truth" changed, it's business, put on your big boy pants and deal.

 

[dicko]

The "truth" changed, it's business, put on your big boy pants and deal.

The rest of the world just call it plain old dishonesty. ie. lying.

 

[scoreboardII]

welcome to business, lifes tuff, it's tougher if you are unaware of the facts.

 

[Flyer1015]

I don't think there's any question that Airtran guys got boned, especially considering SWA management was looking to sell the 717s while keeping a straight face and saying that they were staying. I guess SWA management and SWAPA are no different then their other legacy airline counterparts.