SWAPA Comments about 717

[shootr]

Right of Return (ROR) is what many SWAPA members were pushing for which would have prevented ANY senior pilots from poaching positions from ANY displaced pilots due to SWA's month to month vacancy flexing for seasonal flying. The same ROR that AT ALPA (and most pilot groups) has in their CBA. Company AND SWAPA said no. End of story (except for all the PO'd junior Southwest guys).

Hope that helps,
shootr

 

[Uppercrust]

One day SWAPA will ask us former AT pilots to stand with them in some sort of fight. I won't be there, ever.

I'm with you my brother!

 

[Diesel-9]

I've heard chatter that SWA will be paying DAL $150,000 month for every B-717 aircraft. $13.2 mil a month/$158 million a year. Are these aircraft leased from Boeing?

 

[tankerhead]

I doubt there are too many pissed off junior 717 FO's. They (we) were poised to have to ride that seat with zero movement until the leases expired. Our version of SWA's "CJ" was in for a very long uncomfortable ride until Tuesday's announcement. I was beaming ear to ear upon receiving the news.

 

[Scoot 11]

To all the first officers at Airtran (I'm addressing the entire pilot group here)
YOU SHOULD HAVE DUMPED ALPO!!!!!!!

Yes, because for the last 5 years an LCC 25 year 737 east captain has been getting what a 3rd year SW f/o has been getting...:laugh:

 

[SWA Bubba]

Why would you have a problem with the AirTran pilots keeping the flying THEY brought to the table no matter how long it was? Your perspective speaks volumes.

MY perspective? I was only giving an example of a management business decision that would have favored the other side of the partition, and then suggested that YOU wouldn't have had a problem with their union leadership describing it to its members in favorable terms, even if it was a material change to the agreed-upon SLI that harmed SWAPA pilots. I offered NO personal perspective whatsoever.

As I and others have pointed out numerous times (Candide most recently above), that while we agree that this changes the agreed-upon terms of the SLI in a way that harms Airtran expectations, THIS WAS NOT A SWAPA DECISION. Yet you act like SWAPA just sits around trying to find ways to screw over Airtran guys. Maybe it would be a little more constructive to address criticism of a business decision at the people who actually MADE the decision, not the people whose job it is to react to such decisions, for better or worse.

You know, I was gonna' ask you how exactly you thought Capt Chase SHOULD have phrased this, when communicating management's decision to his constituents, but I changed my mind. I think we've had enough of your "helpful" commentary on this subject. Thanks for all of that, by the way. You're a peach.

Bubba

 

[Daddy]

Anyone who believes that SWAPA had somehow strategically planned this does not know SWAPA. You guys will see this soon enough though. Don't be mad at your fellow pilots...airtran or SWA. We will all be further tested by this management team at some point and will need to stick together for our own good. I'm hopeful airtran will bring over a little backbone to the SWA group. SWAPA is a little lost in the woods right now and the natives are getting restless. Do not take any of this personally...constitutional votes included. Our membership basically just said no to everything and most didn't even read it...they are just unhappy with our company and our union. An unending series of gaffs on both has led to that. Especially the company....millions wasted on RNP, bungled wifi, crippling IT capability, and a new VP every week without a pilot in sight to stop the upper management buffoonery with even a little rudimentary aviation knowledge. If you really want to worry about something, worry about that. No one will get furloughed over this deal...you guys will be taken care of. Worry about the bean counters. The SLI is done...it passed both sides...the fallout will be what it will be. Crapping on your fellow pilots will not help no matter which side of the fence you're on. You guys will love our system here...you will probably have to stand with us and fight to keep it at some point.

 

[Tripower455]

Right of Return (ROR) is what many SWAPA members were pushing for which would have prevented ANY senior pilots from poaching positions from ANY displaced pilots due to SWA's month to month vacancy flexing for seasonal flying. The same ROR that AT ALPA (and most pilot groups) has in their CBA. Company AND SWAPA said no. End of story (except for all the PO'd junior Southwest guys).

Hope that helps,
shootr

Yup...

Lack of ROR coupled with our monthly, -3/+1 vacancy bid process has been a major issue for the junior guys ever since 9/11 slowed growth.

For those not familiar, we have monthly vacancy bids. The company micromanages the manning, reducing some bases and increasing others, often by only a few pilots either way. If no one wants to leave when there's a reduction (common in senior bases like MCO), bottom folks get displaced. A few months later, they'll add a few slots, and they are rebid in seniority order, so it's as if the displaced guy never even held that base and he's forced to commute (sometimes for years) while the senior guys come in and poach vacations etc.

The lack of ROR also stagnates the rest of the list in senior domiciles, particularly on the Capt side (MCO is a prime example), but now the FO side will be similarly affected as the AT guys come in on top of them.

Every few years, the ROR subject came up, and SWAPA ignored it, mainly because it would "harm" the senior vacation poachers and domicile carpetbaggers. This time around, SWAPA was able to deflect the blame to the company.

The senior carpetbaggers love the flexibility of being able to winter in MCO and summer in BWI etc, but the junior guys pay for it.

IMHO, getting ROR in the contract would HELP the former AT guys as much as it would the organic SW guys, especially once they can exercise their global seniority, but SWAPA won't fight for it.

 

[redflyer65]

SWAPA didn't back ROR what so ever. Once the AAI guys come over, they will see how the vacancies roll. Sometimes -/+ 5 or so...sometimes -/+ 15. It's painful to get to the base you want..finally to then be booted with no right of return.

Trip is right, those that are more senior love to bid around at will with no reprecussions. Need to bid MDW to MCO for a new girlfriend, no problem for the guys with seniority.

Like the weather better in MDW during the summer? You get the point. The guys at the bottom bare the brunt of the wild swings. Those higher up have no clue of the displacements, literally no clue.

 

[vixin]

SWAPA, in my own opinion and based on that fact, had no previous knowledge of the 717 going away.
__________________

This announcement is one SWAPA has planned for from the original announcement of the purchase of AirTran Airways.

Steve Chase

You need to go re read the letter then. Steve Chase stated in his very poor letter that they knew of the 717's fate the day the announcement was made. How do you feel about your union now?

Then any remaining after 2015 will come over as CA as they transition to their 737 CA job.

Only if their world senority can hold it, correct?

Time for both pilot groups to band together and send SWA a message. This divid and conquer will only hurt this pilot group more and give Mr Kelly a bigger smile. He does not give a crap about the pilots. Get that clear.

 

[redflyer65]

Within the past two months, it was the worst kept secret in aviation that the 717 was going to Delta. Even the Delta guys knew it. I pretty sure Steve knew for sure with the miniumum two day notice from Southwest. They haven't really let us know anything of their concrete plans on anything lately, until it hits the papers.

 

[Max Powers]

How about the FO's who don't make the 2015 cut but would have had till end of lease through 2018-2021 to get into the seat due to those folks staying on the 717? Now, every seat until end of seniority disparity goes AT. It all depends where you are.

You're still closer to upgrade than you were before, had you not merged. You had an overall relative seniority gain of 14.23% based on your specific overall relative seniority.

Scoreboard you are a class act: I like how you tell us how it isn't so bad losing over 80% of our captain slots. And how now - you are screwed because a few AAI pilots will be able to upgrade in 2015. UFB.

 

[vixin]

Steve Chase Knew the day or the announcement to purchase AAI. He states that in his letter to the association

 

[ILUVURBANMYERS]

Re read Daddy's post-SHACK! He gets it. The hand wringing by GK is scarey! He is surrounded by non aviation lap dogs. I was in a PT last month and the training center was FULL of pilots on trip pull all wearing slacks and button up shirts in some committee of some sort. Chief pilot/check airman symposium-you get the pic. In the sim all we did was BS RNP and DDA non precision work that you NEVER do on the line. Hold on the ride is gonna be rough.

 

[Lear70]

SWAPA was again working on RoR as recently as early last month (April) in conjunction with SL12. They were unable to get the company to buy off on it, so it died... for now.

I have to say, with the way SWA flexes CA staffing up and down monthly, I have no idea how they're going to function without a Lance CA program to act as a shock absorber to the system and without RoR.

For the sake of our CA's, I'm glad it's dead for now, but overall, I've always expected a RoR for displaced CA's, just not sure how it would work in the SWA system where upgrading/downgrading guys every month seems to be the norm, rather than other carriers where it's the exception.

And for the record, Steve Chase knew his letter would be read by everyone on both sides, both labor and management alike, just as our MEC and even our management teams know everything they put in writing gets EVERYWHERE and analyzed 5 ways from Sunday.

As such, a little less jubilation would have gone a long way towards not alienating an already inflamed pilot group at AirTran and brought us much closer together as union pilot brethren moving forward.

Not to mention the ill-worded statement that SWAPA knew of the early retirements of the 717 way back during SLI negotiations and management letters and emails to us as recently as 60 days ago say there was no plan for their early departure.

Less than stellar communiques'. I understand that he is wanting to celebrate a "win" for your pilot group, but coming at the expense of another group that you will eventually have to work with, it could have been tamed down a bit for future relations between our groups.

And that's all I have to say about that...

 

[Ty Webb]

With all do respect in SL9 that was not even given a chance to be voted on every AirTran captain was seat protected. I would've had 160 people junior to me holding the left seat. SWAPA reccomended we vote it in. So SWAPA, in my own opinion and based on that fact, had no previous knowledge of the 717 going away.

Actually, The first proposal (SIA #1) had a clause that would have lost the 717CA seats as well.

 

[waveflyer]

You guys have serious reading comprehension issues:


Quote:
This announcement is one SWAPA has planned for from the original announcement of the purchase of AirTran Airways.

Steve Chase

Lear, please acknowledge that you did not "KNOW" two months ago that the 717's would be sold- yet still urged your MEC to plan for that contingency.
Thats all Chase was saying. Justifying their efforts.

 

[Lear70]

Yes, that's exactly what I said... we didn't "know" and were actually being told by Southwest management that there were no plans to get rid of them earlier than previously-planned.

But the writing (for those of us with a little forward thinking) was on the wall. I took a lot of heat from a couple reps saying I was seeing "black helicopter" conspiracies and we shouldn't waste our time... that's how convinced we were of what Southwest had told us about the 717's being here at least through the integration.

Hell, one of the MC members even made a $100 bet with me just 3 weeks ago that the majority of the 717's would make the transition... he hasn't emailed me back about paying up yet.

I pushed anyway, and they started planning.

If that's what Chase is saying, that's fine, but it was worded poorly when combined with the rest of the letter and didn't come across that way. At least not on the AirTran side... Perception filters our reality I guess.

 

[SWA Bubba]

.... with the way SWA flexes CA staffing up and down monthly...

.... in the SWA system where upgrading/downgrading guys every month seems to be the norm, rather than other carriers where it's the exception....

This is actually a mischaracterization, Lear. Captains don't get upgraded and downgraded every month. When there's no growth, the bottom few guys get displaced between domiciles on a monthly basis. When there's growth (as there is now recently) that doesn't happen. ROR (as I believe most airline CBAs have) would help those junior few get back to their chosen domiciles. SWAPA has never had it, and it's never been an issue with a continually-growing company. Since we're not that anymore, people's voices on this subject are getting louder.

As far as up/downgrades, that's mostly a thing of the past. It used to be (with continual growth) that you had senior FOs (who bid Xmas vacations the year before) becoming Captains during the year. That meant you had senior CAs and junior CAs with Xmas vacations to cover (too many). The company traditionally added extra CAs for December, and bumped them back down in Jan when they weren't needed. Now, with a lot less growth, that's not as much of an issue. In fact, there was no downgrades (and few upgrades) for the last two Christmas seasons. The last involuntary CA downgrade was in Jan 2010.

Bubba

 

[Lear70]

Ah, I gotcha. Most of us were under the impression that the RoR being worked on was for Captain seats.

Thanks for the clarification.