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Future AMR/B6 timeline....

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"TWA's sell out". Excuse me! Are you kidding me!

Don't be a mc******************************!
Breath... Breath... one more... ok. now read the sarcasm in that WHOLE POST. This is the crap our managment says.

:beer: now go have a cold one and relax.

HAHAHA, I got sensored.
 
Lake Alice;2265435 First Dave Barger has been open about quoting and touting a relationship with Frank Lorenzo. He has stated multiple time he learned a great deal from the man. Please post an article or viideo of him doing soo.....[/QUOTE said:
Dave went from gate agent in 1982 at New York Air, to Director of Stations at New York Air in 6 short years, under Frank Lorenzo's ownership, then got rolled into Lorenzo's Continental management team and became a Vice President.

Frank hated all representation and so does your religious icon Dave. The apple falls not far from the tree. Dave is Frank, and Frank is Dave.

Been kicked in the teeth lately?
 
I tried to find the JTTP where he made the statement but I was unable. If I'm not mistaken he also referenced the relationship during last years state of the airline.
 
I guess Dave was off the day Frank
handed out the golden parachutes
prior to his departure.
He'd be a fool ever to mention Lorenzo's
name to any pilot. Did he see the bad and the good(?)
from the man, I'm sure he did.
Just as you do when you fly with the worst pilot in the base.
Does that make you a crappy pilot too?
 
I've never heard him mention Lorenzo by name , but he definitely likes to talk about all his experience he got from New York Air. That is just about the same as using Frankie's name.
 
A union is coming the same as a merger. It WILL happen. Our best hope is that it happens in time to make McCaskill/Bond apply to us.

If AA buys us, we are going to get stapled. If we have a CBA and get SUPER lucky a few high up captains might get a bit of integration. 190 guys and all FO's are going to get stapled, though. That's just the way it is. Our PEA vs. the APA? That's a no brainer. If we have a CBA, though, at least we'll be put ahead of any furloughs not on property.

The APA doesn't hate us, it is simply their job to get the best deal possible for their members. Barger doesn't hate us any more than I hate him. He is just doing his job, which is to maximize shareholder value. He's there to make money for the company, NOT to take care of the employees.

The thing that gets me is this: NOBODY in the entire industry has looked at WN, how they run their heavily unionized shop, how they treat their employees with tops in the industry pay and benefits, and said "you know, that's not a bad idea, maybe we should try that. Our employees will work their butts off!" It would be a novel idea if B6 management, or any airline management for that matter would give that a shot.

I'm probably dreaming, though.

APAs contract requires recall of ALL furloughees prior to any OAL acquisitions. Most of the furloughees are former TWA, so they may not fight quite so hard as they have in the past, but I think they don't want to set the precedent of caving on this one.

Your milage may vary
 
APAs contract requires recall of ALL furloughees prior to any OAL acquisitions. Most of the furloughees are former TWA, so they may not fight quite so hard as they have in the past, but I think they don't want to set the precedent of caving on this one.

Your milage may vary


APA's contract is about to change too. I would be shocked if that survives.
 
The difference between TWA and B6 would be that B6 adds value to the corporation. TWA was a big looser to the corporation. Within a couple of years AA was back to it's original size and blew a billion bucks for nothing.

The last take rate for recalls was about 15%. I suspect that would go deep into the single digits now if there were to recall.
 
Last edited:
Plus, that is in direct contradiction with McCaskill/Bond. Court Fight!!!

There would end up being some kind of compromise.

The only court fight that would happen involving McB, would be if they granted single carrier status. There will be no fight, no ground to stand on if they buy us/we buy them when both parties are operating under umbrella holdings. Assets can be xfrd back and forth.

This is why single carrier status was not even applied for until after the SWA/AT pilots came to an agreement.

In a TE if your haning your carreer on this law, you should make a plan B.

While I would hope that the "Dave" and the mass retirements at AA or any other would help us out, I fear that we would be on the recieving end of any hose job.

just my thought on the situation. ok now, ready fire aim LOL!
 
B6 can always just bid for select assets only. Similar to the WN ATA deal.

There will be no bidding on AA's assets. This BK is a restructure. ATA's BK was full on meltdown. AA has 4billion in the bank. ATA barely had enough cash on hand to cover payroll.

AA will come out and absorb or merge or be absorbed in entirety by something. It's the airline way. Just look at the most recent all preceded by a BK, AWA/US... NWA/DAL... AA/TWA... the list goes on and on and on. When in bk misery loves company, bring some one else into the party.
 
The only court fight that would happen involving McB, would be if they granted single carrier status. There will be no fight, no ground to stand on if they buy us/we buy them when both parties are operating under umbrella holdings. Assets can be xfrd back and forth.

This is why single carrier status was not even applied for until after the SWA/AT pilots came to an agreement.

In a TE if your haning your carreer on this law, you should make a plan B.

While I would hope that the "Dave" and the mass retirements at AA or any other would help us out, I fear that we would be on the recieving end of any hose job.

just my thought on the situation. ok now, ready fire aim LOL!

Also, McB says company leadership can "negotiate" on behalf of the pilot group if they want to. I find it hard to believe they would fight tooth and nail for us while they're trying to work out their own sweet deals.
 
It's actually quite simple. Look at M/A history. If you use the 'career expectations' model, which would actually be best for us, you see that AA has no comparable equipment in # of seats, A/C type, etc. Since no arbitrator would put any group of employees in smaller, lower paying equipment senior to those in larger, higher paying equipment, it's a no brainer.

It's like saying if AA bought Mesa, then the #1 RJ guy at Mesa gets equal seniority to the #1 777 captain at AA. Not gonna happen.

You would be wise to look at M & A history to see what we can expect. Even if we get pure DOH, the most junior pilot on AA's current on property list was hired considerably earlier then when B6 even started ops. DOH = staple.

It's a sad, sad fact, but that is what is going to happen, like it or not. The only thing a CBA will really do is allow Mcaskill/Bond to apply to the B6 pilot group, meaning we will be senior to all currently furloughed AA pilots. Which, in my opinion, won't matter because there won't be a furlough if they buy us anyway.

For those of you that think we will have a fighting chance against the APA I just shake my head. No arbitrator will give us the time of day, and the APA will keep the companies seperate ala USAir before they let one of our guys gain any seniority to any one of their guys. The best case wet dream scenario for us would be our guys getting intergrated captain/fo to all their MD80/737 guys. That ain't gonna happen, especially with the 190 guys.

Those that say it will be ugly are wrong. The APA will light us on fire and piss on the ashes, just like they did with the TWA guys. The only saving grace is the fact that in less than 20 years, pretty much their entire seniority list will be gone. Even if we get stapled, every B6 pilot that is left will be able to hold international widebody captain at some point. The junior guys like me will hold it for 10-15 years. That ain't so bad.

I say bring it on.

This is so stupid it actually makes my head hurt. You think an arbitrator would take JB's list, rearrange it so all 320 guys are senior to all 190 guys, then staple it to AA? Oww! Oww! So much pain...

Seniority is seniority. I'm a 190 CA that's senior to you, and after any merger, I'll still be senior to you.
 
This is so stupid it actually makes my head hurt. You think an arbitrator would take JB's list, rearrange it so all 320 guys are senior to all 190 guys, then staple it to AA? Oww! Oww! So much pain...

Seniority is seniority. I'm a 190 CA that's senior to you, and after any merger, I'll still be senior to you.

Learn to read, idiot.

I never said that I'd be senior to anybody. I'm saying SOME super senior captains MIGHT get a bit of integration. MAYBE.

I doubt it.


The APA will protect their own, as far as they are concerned, we can go to hell.

If AA buys us, you better get ready to be stapled. It's going to happen. I'll take it right now. I'll be a widebody captain for 20+ years thanks to retirements if there is a staple tomorrow. I'll take that.
 
So in typical fashion.....it is all about you and less about everyone else?

Brilliant!

A350

He'll correct me if I'm wrong here. CaptVag's point is that should we get stapled, for those of us on the bottom of Jb's list it's not that bad of a deal. Those "Senior" bus drivers and what not that are hinging thier livley hood on the left seat are the one's that will get hit the hardest when McB does not apply to a TE. Thus showing his support for a union to help us protect the masses. Something like that?

So, everyone just simmer down.
 
Beach:

I understand your point....

But you are incorrect about his "position". He has stated multiple times that we WILL get stapled and that he would "take that tomorrow"....not "should we get stapled". This position also indicates the ignorance that all of those near the bottom of our list are as young as he is, meaning they would all fare as well as he would. This is another ridiculous assumption.

I also understand the mentality of "it matters not, it won't affect me" and how it has helped put this profession in the shambles that it can be.

He can have the last word.

A350
 
Beach:

I understand your point....

But you are incorrect about his "position". He has stated multiple times that we WILL get stapled and that he would "take that tomorrow"....not "should we get stapled". This position also indicates the ignorance that all of those near the bottom of our list are as young as he is, meaning they would all fare as well as he would. This is another ridiculous assumption.

I also understand the mentality of "it matters not, it won't affect me" and how it has helped put this profession in the shambles that it can be.

He can have the last word.

A350

Your argument would hold merit if unions actually meant true unity. Name one instance where it has.

First and foremost, if you are 50 or 60 years old and on the bottom of the seniority list, that is simply a lost cause. I challenge you to find one single instance that could cause a favorable outcome for them. There isn't one.

If you think that JB would get anything but a staple in a merger with AMR or DAL, or ever WN, you are living in a dream world. We are small, they are big. They have resources, we do not. We have been around about 12 years, they have been around much longer. We have 2,300 pilots, they have triple, quadruple, or even more than that in some instances. The best case scenario would that a small amount of super senior captains would get some integration at the bottom of the new list with some fences up for protection, but that is about it. That is reality, and you'd best be prepared to accept it. I was when I took the job. I'm 34. I've got 30+ years left in the industry. I can afford a staple. If you can't, perhaps you should rethink your decision making process, or have taken a job somewhere else. I came to JB KNOWING the health insurance was expensive, the retirement was sub-par, and that it was likely just a matter of time before some kind of M & A activity. I came to JB KNOWING it was not the endgame for me, but prepared fully if it became so. JB is a good job. A damn good job. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional. There's a reason that there are 12,000 plus pilot applications on file here. However, that does not mean that there isn't VAST room for improvement, which is why I am staunchly pro-union.

Here's the difference: I don't lie about why I am pro-union. I don't preach bull$hit about how we are unified, etc. I am pro-union because MYSELF AND MY FAMILY stand to gain from it. Period. I would never cross a picket line because the consequences of doing so far outweigh the benefits. It's simple math.

If others gain from a union as well, that is a charming bonus. I don't really care for one simple reason:

I know for a fact that they don't care about me.

You think the senior captains that run negotiating committees actually give a rat's ass about the junior FO's?

Ask the guys that negotiated $30 bucks an hour and no health insurance for 6 months for first year guys at CAL.

Ask the guys that negotiated unlimited reserve extensions and reassignments at AE for a small payraise.

Ask the guys that negotiated 8 days a month off and unlimited junior manning for the junior reserves at Mesa.

They will likely blame management, but the simple fact is, had they given up some off their top-heavy compensation and thought of someone other than themselves, the guys at the bottom might actually get to see their families once in a while, and might actually get to make a living.

Unity my ass. They are no better than management. The guys at the top of the union take care of themselves, and everyone else can go to hell.

Look at the salaries at ALPA national.

The only saving grace is that some of the scraps that fall downhill might get picked up by the junior guys. For example, health insurance cost is likely to go down. Retirement is likely to get better. But make no mistake about it.....they aren't doing it for you, they are doing it for them.

A truly unified union would be completely unstoppable by managment. There would be nothing they could do but acquiesce to the reality of what the union wants, or go out of business. But pilots are greedy by nature, we always have been. We will never be truly unified because the guys at the top want one thing, the guys at the bottom want another. Retirement is more important to some than heath insurance or pay. Some guys want to work their asses off and credit 100 hours a month, some guys, like me, are totally happy with min guarantee and working as little as possible. As long as that is the case, you will have differing opinions on how things should be done, what should be a top priority, and what is most important. There will never be true unity. Guys right now are pissing and moaning at JB because there is no open time. They are lowering the bid divisors and awarding lines to more people. Senior guys that want to max their flying are pissed, while junior guys like me are happy to be off reserve and more than happy to just fly a 70 or 80 hour line and go home.

Pilots will always be divided, just as humanity always will be. Guys that scream out "you've got the 'I got mine' attitude" like A350 are really saying, "you should be caring about what I care about!! Not what you care about!"

Not a chance, scooter. I have my own life to life, my own family to feed, and my own priorities to take care of. I don't give a damn about yours any more than you give a damn about mine.

The only difference is I don't bull$hit about it.
 
Your argument would hold merit if unions actually meant true unity. Name one instance where it has.

First and foremost, if you are 50 or 60 years old and on the bottomless of the seniority list, that is simply a lost cause. I challenge you to find one single instance that could cause a favorable outcome for them. There isn't one.

If you think that JB would get anything but a staple in a merger with AMR or DAL, or ever WN, you are living in a dream world. We are small, they are big. They have resources, we do not. We have been around about 12 years, they have been around much longer. We have 2,300 pilots, they have triple, quadruple, or even more than that in some instances. The best case scenario would that a small amount of super senior captains would get some integration at the bottom of the new list with some fences up for protection, but that is about it. That is reality, and you'd best be prepared to accept it. I was when I took the job. I'm 34. I've got 30+ years left in the industry. I can afford a staple. If you can't, perhaps you should rethink your decision making process, or have taken a job somewhere else. I came to JB KNOWING the health insurance was expensive, the retirement was sub-par, and that it was likely just a matter of time before some kind of M & A activity. I came to JB KNOWING it was not the endgame for me, but prepared fully if it became so. JB is a good job. A damn good job. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional. There's a reason that there are 12,000 plus pilot applications on file here. However, that does not mean that there isn't VAST room for improvement, which is why I am staunchly pro-union.

Here's the difference: I don't lie about why I am pro-union. I don't preach bull$hit about how we are unified, etc. I am pro-union because MYSELF AND MY FAMILY stand to gain from it. Period. I would never cross a picket line because the consequences of doing so far outweigh the benefits. It's simple math.

If others gain from a union as well, that is a charming bonus. I don't really care for one simple reason:

I know for a fact that they don't care about me.

You think the senior captains that run negotiating committees actually give a rat's ass about the junior FO's?

Ask the guys that negotiated $30 bucks an hour and no health insurance for 6 months for first year guys at CAL.

Ask the guys that negotiated unlimited reserve extensions and reassignments at AE for a small payraise.

Ask the guys that negotiated 8 days a month off and unlimited junior manning for the junior reserves at Mesa.

They will likely blame management, but the simple fact is, had they given up some off their top-heavy compensation and thought of someone other than themselves, the guys at the bottom might actually get to see their families once in a while, and might actually get to make a living.

Unity my ass. They are no better than management. The guys at the top of the union take care of themselves, and everyone else can go to hell.

Look at the salaries at ALPA national.

The only saving grace is that some of the scraps that fall downhill might get picked up by the junior guys. For example, health insurance cost is likely to go down. Retirement is likely to get better. But make no mistake about it.....they aren't doing it for you, they are doing it for them.

A truly unified union would be completely unstoppable by managment. There would be nothing they could do but acquiesce to the reality of what the union wants, or go out of business. But pilots are greedy by nature, we always have been. We will never be truly unified because the guys at the top want one thing, the guys at the bottom want another. Retirement is more important to some than heath insurance or pay. Some guys want to work their asses off and credit 100 hours a month, some guys, like me, are totally happy with min guarantee and working as little as possible. As long as that is the case, you will have differing opinions on how things should be done, what should be a top priority, and what is most important. There will never be true unity. Guys right now are pissing and moaning at JB because there is no open time. They are lowering the bid divisors and awarding lines to more people. Senior guys that want to max their flying are pissed, while junior guys like me are happy to be off reserve and more than happy to just fly a 70 or 80 hour line and go home.

Pilots will always be divided, just as humanity always will be. Guys that scream out "you've got the 'I got mine' attitude" like A350 are really saying, "you should be caring about what I care about!! Not what you care about!"

Not a chance, scooter. I have my own life to life, my own family to feed, and my own priorities to take care of. I don't give a damn about yours any more than you give a damn about mine.

The only difference is I don't bull$hit about it.

Lots of truth here.
 
Your argument would hold merit if unions actually meant true unity. Name one instance where it has.

First and foremost, if you are 50 or 60 years old and on the bottom of the seniority list, that is simply a lost cause. I challenge you to find one single instance that could cause a favorable outcome for them. There isn't one.

If you think that JB would get anything but a staple in a merger with AMR or DAL, or ever WN, you are living in a dream world. We are small, they are big. They have resources, we do not. We have been around about 12 years, they have been around much longer. We have 2,300 pilots, they have triple, quadruple, or even more than that in some instances. The best case scenario would that a small amount of super senior captains would get some integration at the bottom of the new list with some fences up for protection, but that is about it. That is reality, and you'd best be prepared to accept it. I was when I took the job. I'm 34. I've got 30+ years left in the industry. I can afford a staple. If you can't, perhaps you should rethink your decision making process, or have taken a job somewhere else. I came to JB KNOWING the health insurance was expensive, the retirement was sub-par, and that it was likely just a matter of time before some kind of M & A activity. I came to JB KNOWING it was not the endgame for me, but prepared fully if it became so. JB is a good job. A damn good job. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional. There's a reason that there are 12,000 plus pilot applications on file here. However, that does not mean that there isn't VAST room for improvement, which is why I am staunchly pro-union.

Here's the difference: I don't lie about why I am pro-union. I don't preach bull$hit about how we are unified, etc. I am pro-union because MYSELF AND MY FAMILY stand to gain from it. Period. I would never cross a picket line because the consequences of doing so far outweigh the benefits. It's simple math.

If others gain from a union as well, that is a charming bonus. I don't really care for one simple reason:

I know for a fact that they don't care about me.

You think the senior captains that run negotiating committees actually give a rat's ass about the junior FO's?

Ask the guys that negotiated $30 bucks an hour and no health insurance for 6 months for first year guys at CAL.

Ask the guys that negotiated unlimited reserve extensions and reassignments at AE for a small payraise.

Ask the guys that negotiated 8 days a month off and unlimited junior manning for the junior reserves at Mesa.

They will likely blame management, but the simple fact is, had they given up some off their top-heavy compensation and thought of someone other than themselves, the guys at the bottom might actually get to see their families once in a while, and might actually get to make a living.

Unity my ass. They are no better than management. The guys at the top of the union take care of themselves, and everyone else can go to hell.

Look at the salaries at ALPA national.

The only saving grace is that some of the scraps that fall downhill might get picked up by the junior guys. For example, health insurance cost is likely to go down. Retirement is likely to get better. But make no mistake about it.....they aren't doing it for you, they are doing it for them.

A truly unified union would be completely unstoppable by managment. There would be nothing they could do but acquiesce to the reality of what the union wants, or go out of business. But pilots are greedy by nature, we always have been. We will never be truly unified because the guys at the top want one thing, the guys at the bottom want another. Retirement is more important to some than heath insurance or pay. Some guys want to work their asses off and credit 100 hours a month, some guys, like me, are totally happy with min guarantee and working as little as possible. As long as that is the case, you will have differing opinions on how things should be done, what should be a top priority, and what is most important. There will never be true unity. Guys right now are pissing and moaning at JB because there is no open time. They are lowering the bid divisors and awarding lines to more people. Senior guys that want to max their flying are pissed, while junior guys like me are happy to be off reserve and more than happy to just fly a 70 or 80 hour line and go home.

Pilots will always be divided, just as humanity always will be. Guys that scream out "you've got the 'I got mine' attitude" like A350 are really saying, "you should be caring about what I care about!! Not what you care about!"

Not a chance, scooter. I have my own life to life, my own family to feed, and my own priorities to take care of. I don't give a damn about yours any more than you give a damn about mine.

The only difference is I don't bull$hit about it.

Unions are not religions and logical men use them for logical purposes.

Unfortunately, pilots as a group, are emotional and short sighted. Especially the young ones.

Despite that, pilots have negotiated some pretty good contracts at airlines that YOU or I have never worked for and those pilots have done very well for themselves. Thousands of them CONTINUE to do very well for themselves.

And you're right....

....This senior guy doesn't give a rats ass about you unless you're standing against what my family needs and then I only want you gone.
 
And is that not the problem?

The fact that there is no unity among the unions, among the different airlines, among each pilot group, is why we keep getting our collective a##$2 handed to us.

Propagating what you percieve as an injustice (they don't give a crap about me, so I won't give a crap about you) just continues the cycle that has gotten us here today. I isn't a great excuse and it certainly won't make things better for the next generation of airline pilots.

Very sad.

A350
 
And is that not the problem?

The fact that there is no unity among the unions, among the different airlines, among each pilot group, is why we keep getting our collective a##$2 handed to us.

Propagating what you percieve as an injustice (they don't give a crap about me, so I won't give a crap about you) just continues the cycle that has gotten us here today. I isn't a great excuse and it certainly won't make things better for the next generation of airline pilots.

Very sad.

A350

So in essence what you are saying is that you can thank the current crop of senior daddies for getting us into this mess and that the junior pilots should just bend over and be happy so the seniors now and maybe a few future juniors can have it better?

Nice try buddy. Not a chance in hell. maybe you seniors should try leading by example as so many of you claim management should do.
 
What I have been saying is that we have to look after each other, not against each other. One cannot succeed without the other.

Have fun railing against the "seniors" who you think screwed you. If you continue to propagate this disunity, nothing will ever get better. And when you get "senior", the junior who come after you will have the same attitude you have or worse.

Good luck with that.

A350
 
Latest and greatest article.

According to an article in the recent Bloomberg Businessweek, JetBlue (NASDAQ: JBLU) is now a takeover candidate with Delta Airlines (NYSE: DAL) and American Airlines (PINK: AAMRQ) as the most logical suitors. US Airways (NYSE: LCC), now considering American Airlines, is always to looking to merge.

In the Bloomberg Businessweek piece by Robert Farzad and Justin Bachman, "Once High-Flying, JetBlue Returns to Earth," Delta Airlines and American Airlines are considered to be the most logical buyers due to JetBlue's strong presence at JFK. Several airline industry analysts noted in the article that this would be most appealing to Delta Airlines and American Airlines, once it emerges from bankruptcy.

At around $4.60 a share, JetBlue is certainly priced low enough to attractive a buyer looking to buy an airline at a discount. In 2007, JetBlue was trading at over $12 a share. Over the last year, JetBlue has fallen 21.33%. In recent trading, JetBlue has fallen while others such as US Airways have risen. Over the last quarter, US Airways is up more than 30%, by contrast.

As a result, it has very attractive valuations. The price-to-book ratio of JetBlue is just 0.74. The price-to-sales ratio is 0.29. On a quarterly basis, both sales growth and earnings-per-share growth are increasing for JetBlue. The forward price-to-earnings ratio for JetBlue is projected to be 7.32. There is also plenty of cash and short term investments to help defray the costs of an acquisition. JetBlue is profitable, but it pales in this area compared to other airlines.

Never appealing to a buyer, however, is a company with loads and loads of debt. With a debt-to-equity ratio of 1.78, JetBlue certainly qualifies under this standard. However, the stock is priced low, which mutates this rating. In addition, debt can always be bought back at a discount.

Lufthansa owns 19% of JetBlue and is monetizing its stake by issuing bonds backed by the shares. JetBlue is down 16.64% in the last quarter, so it is certainly priced to sell. It is also down for the last week and month of trading, too. Even if JetBlue does not sell, the mean analyst target price for the airline is $7.09 over the next year.
 

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