Pinnacle and UAL agree on terms....More Q's?

[RJLoser]

Sounds like Pinnacle and UAL came to an agreement for a profitable outcome for both Saabs and Q's. (Menke email)

 

[princeton]

The CPA was extended two whole months to 4/2/12, big woop. Doesn't sound good at all if that's the best they could do.

"If the parties do not reach a long-term agreement after the term, then United would have the right change the number of aircraft Colgan would operate under the capacity purchase agreement."

http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/...cle-airlines-amends-deals-with.html?ana=yfcpc

 

[Kaman]

Would hardly call that anything more than a reprieve, but given the cloak and dagger games that are played by management, I would be cautious. Management always has the advantage by knowing what the plan is well before anyone in ALPA ever does. The company could very well be leveraging themselves to continue asking for wage concessions. Who knows?

 

[suupah]

hasn't swayed my opinion at all if the vote was held today but i do Commend Menke on getting this deal and for communicating openly.

 

[xjhawk]

me either, show me a wage scale that says we are paid more than the average regional pilot group by a significant margin and then we will talk. SHow me proof that our company is well run and they are not making ridiculous financial decision still (only time will tell). If we are too expensive because the amount of senior pilots at Pinnacle then I think that should be addressed. How you ask? How about not having the pay scale go to 20+ years and having it stop at 12 or 15? Or better yet, how about what is good for the FO's is good for the Captains....where does the FO pay scale stop? I am just saying. I do not want this, but hey what the heck-if they want to sell out our pay and bennies on the principle of saving the company, then let the ones who will benefit the most from it be the ones who pay for it. I mean heck, if we lost a huge number of planes in bankruptcy then most of us would be gone anyways and the only ones left would be the ultra senior ones, why not make them pay for the cuts. I am just saying........

 

[Flyer1015]

me either, show me a wage scale that says we are paid more than the average regional pilot group by a significant margin and then we will talk. SHow me proof that our company is well run and they are not making ridiculous financial decision still (only time will tell). If we are too expensive because the amount of senior pilots at Pinnacle then I think that should be addressed. How you ask? How about not having the pay scale go to 20+ years and having it stop at 12 or 15? Or better yet, how about what is good for the FO's is good for the Captains....where does the FO pay scale stop? I am just saying. I do not want this, but hey what the heck-if they want to sell out our pay and bennies on the principle of saving the company, then let the ones who will benefit the most from it be the ones who pay for it. I mean heck, if we lost a huge number of planes in bankruptcy then most of us would be gone anyways and the only ones left would be the ultra senior ones, why not make them pay for the cuts. I am just saying........

LOL! INCOMING..............!

[gets popcorn out]

For what it's worth, I agree with you.

 

[brokedash]

Menke's temporary deal with UA sounds more like desperation. They should squeeze every last dime that PT stole.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Why would anyone think we are getting more Q's? If anything Co-tied gets a few months to get Skywest spinning.

 

[silver02ex]

Why would anyone think we are getting more Q's? If anything Co-tied gets a few months to get Skywest spinning.

Why Skywest? Why not Go Jets, Express Jet, better yet, Commute air. They already have a EWR base and a Dash 8 program, plus they are probably cheaper. If you thnk it's Skywest, wouldn't they have some Q's by now or at least on order? Those planes don't belong to United, they can't just take it from one company and hand it to another one like Delta does all the time.

 

[Indy319FA]

Why Skywest? Why not Go Jets, Express Jet, better yet, Commute air. They already have a EWR base and a Dash 8 program, plus they are probably cheaper. If you thnk it's Skywest, wouldn't they have some Q's by now or at least on order? Those planes don't belong to United, they can't just take it from one company and hand it to another one like Delta does all the time.

Skywest has been approached by UA several times about operating Q400s and has refused the contract because UA doesn't want to pay them enough for operating another type. This agreement is a positive development because the company and UA have come to an agreement on on compensation for the Q400s. They are probably going to tear up the agreement with CO and write a new agreement with UAL that will fix other things besides compensation. Look for a new deal to come out in the next 6 weeks and for the options to be exercised.

 

[Raskal]

me either, show me a wage scale that says we are paid more than the average regional pilot group by a significant margin and then we will talk. SHow me proof that our company is well run and they are not making ridiculous financial decision still (only time will tell). If we are too expensive because the amount of senior pilots at Pinnacle then I think that should be addressed. How you ask? How about not having the pay scale go to 20+ years and having it stop at 12 or 15? Or better yet, how about what is good for the FO's is good for the Captains....where does the FO pay scale stop? I am just saying. I do not want this, but hey what the heck-if they want to sell out our pay and bennies on the principle of saving the company, then let the ones who will benefit the most from it be the ones who pay for it. I mean heck, if we lost a huge number of planes in bankruptcy then most of us would be gone anyways and the only ones left would be the ultra senior ones, why not make them pay for the cuts. I am just saying........

Love it.

 

[veneratio]

That flying should go back to ExpressJet

 

[jynxyjericho]

That flying should go back to ExpressJet

Surejet?

 

[CLARKGRSWOLD]

Skywest has been approached by UA several times about operating Q400s and has refused the contract because UA doesn't want to pay them enough for operating another type. This agreement is a positive development because the company and UA have come to an agreement on on compensation for the Q400s. They are probably going to tear up the agreement with CO and write a new agreement with UAL that will fix other things besides compensation. Look for a new deal to come out in the next 6 weeks and for the options to be exercised.

It's the rumors no one has heard of, hold the most truth...

 

[Jamis81]

From the union pizza dinner last night..

This 2 month agreement gives us enough money to pay EDC, and not go bankrupt.. But also allows more time for PNCL corp and UAL to try and negotiate a better contract, with the best case for more Q's because United wants many more.

More negotiations starting today between ALPA and PNCL corp.
Wychor said the 5% cut forever was a non starter in negotiations, and the 7% for one year was a non starter in negotiations. So there are still some significant differences between parties. Wychor says that he thinks the Pilot's will need to give something to help the company survive outside of bankruptcy. Those were the only real numbers that were given at the pizza dinner.. The mood of ALPA, seems to be cautiously optimistic.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Good to hear, I'd only consider giving up anything in the contract to become a primary secured credit holder (you can guarantee that won't happen) So At least TW is listening... so far.

 

[Raskal]

"...Wychor says that he thinks the Pilot's will need to give something to help the company survive outside of bankruptcy..."

Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA.

Hopefully we can show some balls with this. Give NOTHING.

 

[bri5150]

"...Wychor says that he thinks the Pilot's will need to give something to help the company survive outside of bankruptcy..."

Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA.

Hopefully we can show some balls with this. Give NOTHING.

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about do you? Since 2004 XJ ALPA was about to strike to avoid giving to company ('04), did not give in to taking concessions for crj 200's and got them anyways ('06ish) and spent millions of dollars in bankruptcy court to not give help to the company. After the bankruptcy, most Mesaba pilots actually came out ahead because of the claim and snapbacks. What examples do you have in which "good 'ol XJ ALPA" gave to their company without putting up a fight? The only time since I have been here, that they recommended voting on something that actually reduced my pay was during bankruptcy when the choice was a pay cut, or an extreme pay slashing.

If you actually meant: Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA...talking with the company to get a working relationship and doing what it takes to get to the truth about the finanacial situation and making recommendations on what they see as the truth...then yes, good 'ol XJ ALPA.

 

[RJLoser]

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about do you? Since 2004 XJ ALPA was about to strike to avoid giving to company ('04), did not give in to taking concessions for crj 200's and got them anyways ('06ish) and spent millions of dollars in bankruptcy court to not give help to the company. After the bankruptcy, most Mesaba pilots actually came out ahead because of the claim and snapbacks. What examples do you have in which "good 'ol XJ ALPA" gave to their company without putting up a fight?

Agreed. I think our guys are doing exactly what the pilot group wants.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

"...Wychor says that he thinks the Pilot's will need to give something to help the company survive outside of bankruptcy..."

Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA.

Hopefully we can show some balls with this. Give NOTHING.

Yep, sounds like good 'ol 9E ALPA, the show some balls and give NOTHING playbook worked great!

 

[bri5150]

Agreed. I think our guys are doing exactly what the pilot group wants.

I think they are doing what they think they need to do. They know how the pilot group feels and that is leverage against the company because it will go to a vote. By putting that into writing, the leverage against the company went up a ton. It's like the negotiating going on in the middle of the field in Braveheart. ALPA can negotiate, but if anything ridiculous comes up, they can just point over their shoulder and say "it won't pass those guys. Nothing I can do about that". It was actually a brilliant move.

Our MEC is doing their job well. It is understandable that those not familiar with the guys on our MEC are leary, but these guys are good. Have some faith.

 

[bri5150]

Yep, sounds like good 'ol 9E ALPA, the show some balls and give NOTHING playbook worked great!

I wrote something to that effect, but decided not to post it. :beer:

Funny, see my previous post about Braveheart and then you post something about showing balls. Good timing!! :beer:

 

[jynxyjericho]

deleted

 

[Raskal]

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about do you? Since 2004 XJ ALPA was about to strike to avoid giving to company ('04), did not give in to taking concessions for crj 200's and got them anyways ('06ish) and spent millions of dollars in bankruptcy court to not give help to the company. After the bankruptcy, most Mesaba pilots actually came out ahead because of the claim and snapbacks. What examples do you have in which "good 'ol XJ ALPA" gave to their company without putting up a fight? The only time since I have been here, that they recommended voting on something that actually reduced my pay was during bankruptcy when the choice was a pay cut, or an extreme pay slashing.

If you actually meant: Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA...talking with the company to get a working relationship and doing what it takes to get to the truth about the finanacial situation and making recommendations on what they see as the truth...then yes, good 'ol XJ ALPA.

Oh joy, another guy waxing on about how great we were (wanna throw something in about the avro while you're at it?)

Ok, first, you bring up the "about to go on strike". Did we? Nope, the super-secret-last-minute-something-or-other stopped it. Would it have helped? Dunno. Probably not, but it certainly set a precedent for the future.

This is a concession negotiation, not a contract negotiation. If we are not going to call the company's hand we will be worse off. Giving a concession on what is, on its very best sunshine-filled and drunken afternoon, a mediocre contract is ridiculous. Name one time such a concession worked and didn't hurt the pilot group in the long run.

I'm very worried when I'm flying with guys who say things like "we can't ask for too much" or "look what happened to Comair" or "the poor company is sinking under training costs". How about LOOK at what we have, what we make, what we cost...are you friggin kidding me? Concessions from us will not make or break a month let alone a company.

When I say it sounds like good 'ol anything, I mean it sounds to me like the continued disintegration of what used to be ALPA.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Oh joy, another guy waxing on about how great we were (wanna throw something in about the avro while you're at it?)

Ok, first, you bring up the "about to go on strike". Did we? Nope, the super-secret-last-minute-something-or-other stopped it. Would it have helped? Dunno. Probably not, but it certainly set a precedent for the future.

This is a concession negotiation, not a contract negotiation. If we are not going to call the company's hand we will be worse off. Giving a concession on what is, on its very best sunshine-filled and drunken afternoon, a mediocre contract is ridiculous. Name one time such a concession worked and didn't hurt the pilot group in the long run.

I'm very worried when I'm flying with guys who say things like "we can't ask for too much" or "look what happened to Comair" or "the poor company is sinking under training costs". How about LOOK at what we have, what we make, what we cost...are you friggin kidding me? Concessions from us will not make or break a month let alone a company.

When I say it sounds like good 'ol anything, I mean it sounds to me like the continued disintegration of what used to be ALPA.

What the employees did at Ford to keep the company out of BK is one time.

 

[bri5150]

There was no strike because the company stopped the flights on their own and the union pretty much got what they wanted.

 

[Raskal]

What the employees did at Ford to keep the company out of BK is one time.

Ford stayed out of court only because Mulally mortgaged the crap out of the property(s). The union crushing and resultant b-scale was merely whipped cream on the sundae. The second scale was the more effective, if not the actual goal, of the two.

Actually, it's another excellent example of a seniority-based system destroying the future for the gains of the few rather than fight, much to management's delight.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Ford stayed out of court only because Mulally mortgaged the crap out of the property(s). The union crushing and resultant b-scale was merely whipped cream on the sundae. The second scale was the more effective, if not the actual goal, of the two.

Actually, it's another excellent example of a seniority-based system destroying the future for the gains of the few rather than fight, much to management's delight.

Really? It wasn't because wages and benefits costs were more than the materials costs for each vehicle? It wasn't because new employees were starting with a GED and 3 weeks of training to push the start and stop buttons on the robot for $75,000 year? It wasn't because a 1000 employees where sitting in the UAW job bank for 6 months at a time and getting full pay?

 

[Flyprdu]

Really? It wasn't because wages and benefits costs were more than the materials costs for each vehicle? It wasn't because new employees were starting with a GED and 3 weeks of training to push the start and stop buttons on the robot for $75,000 year? It wasn't because a 1000 employees where sitting in the UAW job bank for 6 months at a time and getting full pay?

The same thing could be said about pushing buttons on an FCP. Any job can be rationalized to sound like it's an overpaid waste of resources. The fact of the matter is that labor has value, and rather than pointing and saying "It's a waste!!" We should be struggling to preserve and expand the middle class. I don't know if you've been paying attention lately.. but the middle class has been getting its ass kicked. Partly because they've been able to convince low-IQ individuals (read you) that you're not worth it.

It always blows my mind when pilots (labor) loathes itself.

You are your own worst enemy.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

The same thing could be said about pushing buttons on an FCP. Any job can be rationalized to sound like it's an overpaid waste of resources. The fact of the matter is that labor has value, and rather than pointing and saying "It's a waste!!" We should be struggling to preserve and expand the middle class. I don't know if you've been paying attention lately.. but the middle class has been getting its ass kicked. Partly because they've been able to convince low-IQ individuals (read you) that you're not worth it.

It always blows my mind when pilots (labor) loathes itself.

You are your own worst enemy.

Low IQ? Remember the Colgan crash and you wanted all Q400s grounded because they weren't airworthy! Gawd, that was funny!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120930

Some real mental midget gems in there!