Pinnacle and UAL agree on terms....More Q's?

[WMUSIGPI]

Good to hear, I'd only consider giving up anything in the contract to become a primary secured credit holder (you can guarantee that won't happen) So At least TW is listening... so far.

 

[Raskal]

"...Wychor says that he thinks the Pilot's will need to give something to help the company survive outside of bankruptcy..."

Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA.

Hopefully we can show some balls with this. Give NOTHING.

 

[bri5150]

"...Wychor says that he thinks the Pilot's will need to give something to help the company survive outside of bankruptcy..."

Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA.

Hopefully we can show some balls with this. Give NOTHING.

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about do you? Since 2004 XJ ALPA was about to strike to avoid giving to company ('04), did not give in to taking concessions for crj 200's and got them anyways ('06ish) and spent millions of dollars in bankruptcy court to not give help to the company. After the bankruptcy, most Mesaba pilots actually came out ahead because of the claim and snapbacks. What examples do you have in which "good 'ol XJ ALPA" gave to their company without putting up a fight? The only time since I have been here, that they recommended voting on something that actually reduced my pay was during bankruptcy when the choice was a pay cut, or an extreme pay slashing.

If you actually meant: Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA...talking with the company to get a working relationship and doing what it takes to get to the truth about the finanacial situation and making recommendations on what they see as the truth...then yes, good 'ol XJ ALPA.

 

[RJLoser]

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about do you? Since 2004 XJ ALPA was about to strike to avoid giving to company ('04), did not give in to taking concessions for crj 200's and got them anyways ('06ish) and spent millions of dollars in bankruptcy court to not give help to the company. After the bankruptcy, most Mesaba pilots actually came out ahead because of the claim and snapbacks. What examples do you have in which "good 'ol XJ ALPA" gave to their company without putting up a fight?

Agreed. I think our guys are doing exactly what the pilot group wants.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

"...Wychor says that he thinks the Pilot's will need to give something to help the company survive outside of bankruptcy..."

Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA.

Hopefully we can show some balls with this. Give NOTHING.

Yep, sounds like good 'ol 9E ALPA, the show some balls and give NOTHING playbook worked great!

 

[bri5150]

Agreed. I think our guys are doing exactly what the pilot group wants.

I think they are doing what they think they need to do. They know how the pilot group feels and that is leverage against the company because it will go to a vote. By putting that into writing, the leverage against the company went up a ton. It's like the negotiating going on in the middle of the field in Braveheart. ALPA can negotiate, but if anything ridiculous comes up, they can just point over their shoulder and say "it won't pass those guys. Nothing I can do about that". It was actually a brilliant move.

Our MEC is doing their job well. It is understandable that those not familiar with the guys on our MEC are leary, but these guys are good. Have some faith.

 

[bri5150]

Yep, sounds like good 'ol 9E ALPA, the show some balls and give NOTHING playbook worked great!

I wrote something to that effect, but decided not to post it. :beer:

Funny, see my previous post about Braveheart and then you post something about showing balls. Good timing!! :beer:

 

[jynxyjericho]

deleted

 

[Raskal]

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about do you? Since 2004 XJ ALPA was about to strike to avoid giving to company ('04), did not give in to taking concessions for crj 200's and got them anyways ('06ish) and spent millions of dollars in bankruptcy court to not give help to the company. After the bankruptcy, most Mesaba pilots actually came out ahead because of the claim and snapbacks. What examples do you have in which "good 'ol XJ ALPA" gave to their company without putting up a fight? The only time since I have been here, that they recommended voting on something that actually reduced my pay was during bankruptcy when the choice was a pay cut, or an extreme pay slashing.

If you actually meant: Yep, sounds like good 'ol XJ ALPA...talking with the company to get a working relationship and doing what it takes to get to the truth about the finanacial situation and making recommendations on what they see as the truth...then yes, good 'ol XJ ALPA.

Oh joy, another guy waxing on about how great we were (wanna throw something in about the avro while you're at it?)

Ok, first, you bring up the "about to go on strike". Did we? Nope, the super-secret-last-minute-something-or-other stopped it. Would it have helped? Dunno. Probably not, but it certainly set a precedent for the future.

This is a concession negotiation, not a contract negotiation. If we are not going to call the company's hand we will be worse off. Giving a concession on what is, on its very best sunshine-filled and drunken afternoon, a mediocre contract is ridiculous. Name one time such a concession worked and didn't hurt the pilot group in the long run.

I'm very worried when I'm flying with guys who say things like "we can't ask for too much" or "look what happened to Comair" or "the poor company is sinking under training costs". How about LOOK at what we have, what we make, what we cost...are you friggin kidding me? Concessions from us will not make or break a month let alone a company.

When I say it sounds like good 'ol anything, I mean it sounds to me like the continued disintegration of what used to be ALPA.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Oh joy, another guy waxing on about how great we were (wanna throw something in about the avro while you're at it?)

Ok, first, you bring up the "about to go on strike". Did we? Nope, the super-secret-last-minute-something-or-other stopped it. Would it have helped? Dunno. Probably not, but it certainly set a precedent for the future.

This is a concession negotiation, not a contract negotiation. If we are not going to call the company's hand we will be worse off. Giving a concession on what is, on its very best sunshine-filled and drunken afternoon, a mediocre contract is ridiculous. Name one time such a concession worked and didn't hurt the pilot group in the long run.

I'm very worried when I'm flying with guys who say things like "we can't ask for too much" or "look what happened to Comair" or "the poor company is sinking under training costs". How about LOOK at what we have, what we make, what we cost...are you friggin kidding me? Concessions from us will not make or break a month let alone a company.

When I say it sounds like good 'ol anything, I mean it sounds to me like the continued disintegration of what used to be ALPA.

What the employees did at Ford to keep the company out of BK is one time.

 

[bri5150]

There was no strike because the company stopped the flights on their own and the union pretty much got what they wanted.

 

[Raskal]

What the employees did at Ford to keep the company out of BK is one time.

Ford stayed out of court only because Mulally mortgaged the crap out of the property(s). The union crushing and resultant b-scale was merely whipped cream on the sundae. The second scale was the more effective, if not the actual goal, of the two.

Actually, it's another excellent example of a seniority-based system destroying the future for the gains of the few rather than fight, much to management's delight.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Ford stayed out of court only because Mulally mortgaged the crap out of the property(s). The union crushing and resultant b-scale was merely whipped cream on the sundae. The second scale was the more effective, if not the actual goal, of the two.

Actually, it's another excellent example of a seniority-based system destroying the future for the gains of the few rather than fight, much to management's delight.

Really? It wasn't because wages and benefits costs were more than the materials costs for each vehicle? It wasn't because new employees were starting with a GED and 3 weeks of training to push the start and stop buttons on the robot for $75,000 year? It wasn't because a 1000 employees where sitting in the UAW job bank for 6 months at a time and getting full pay?

 

[Flyprdu]

Really? It wasn't because wages and benefits costs were more than the materials costs for each vehicle? It wasn't because new employees were starting with a GED and 3 weeks of training to push the start and stop buttons on the robot for $75,000 year? It wasn't because a 1000 employees where sitting in the UAW job bank for 6 months at a time and getting full pay?

The same thing could be said about pushing buttons on an FCP. Any job can be rationalized to sound like it's an overpaid waste of resources. The fact of the matter is that labor has value, and rather than pointing and saying "It's a waste!!" We should be struggling to preserve and expand the middle class. I don't know if you've been paying attention lately.. but the middle class has been getting its ass kicked. Partly because they've been able to convince low-IQ individuals (read you) that you're not worth it.

It always blows my mind when pilots (labor) loathes itself.

You are your own worst enemy.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

The same thing could be said about pushing buttons on an FCP. Any job can be rationalized to sound like it's an overpaid waste of resources. The fact of the matter is that labor has value, and rather than pointing and saying "It's a waste!!" We should be struggling to preserve and expand the middle class. I don't know if you've been paying attention lately.. but the middle class has been getting its ass kicked. Partly because they've been able to convince low-IQ individuals (read you) that you're not worth it.

It always blows my mind when pilots (labor) loathes itself.

You are your own worst enemy.

Low IQ? Remember the Colgan crash and you wanted all Q400s grounded because they weren't airworthy! Gawd, that was funny!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120930

Some real mental midget gems in there!