NJA size

[imacdog]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Management has recently made decisions costing the company far more than the menial yearly pay increases for its employees.

 

[kman]

Just wondering G4dude, do you think our pay has kept up with inflation?

What about 400 ish co-pilots that are going to top out at year 10 pay and with no future raises or upgrade in sight?

 

[G4dude]

Just wondering G4dude, do you think our pay has kept up with inflation?

What about 400 ish co-pilots that are going to top out at year 10 pay and with no future raises or upgrade in sight?

Good questions. My point is, the job market is so bad, there are many very good pilots who would fly for half what we make, which puts NJA at a competitive advantage. This has nothing to do with what I or you think we are worth, this is about the iron laws of the marketplace.

 

[BentOver]

Just wondering G4dude, do you think our pay has kept up with inflation?

What about 400 ish co-pilots that are going to top out at year 10 pay and with no future raises or upgrade in sight?

Exactly the reason I think as long as there is a place for them to go attrition will only increase....Maybe not in 2012 or even 2013, but eventually something will give, and when it comes between staying at NJA OR jumping to a Delta, SWA, JB etc I think you'll see alot jump ship. Same with the 495. They are already predicting pretty big bypasses if/when recalls happen:laugh:......

For those who want to make well into six figures flying or be captains somewhere, those guys will be the ones who leave. Some like myself only care about the homebasing/free medical and making a comfortable living to be able to venture into other things outside of aviation. etc. Guys like me will go back. Won't be the same type of employee as before, but will go back.

Slowly increasing sales beyond 2011/2012 and attrition will be the leading factor in recalls. We don't need an explosion in sales, just an end to shrinkage and some actual growth.

 

[T-1GUY]

I would not agree with your assumption of the aviation job market. While the economy overall is slow, aviation jobs hit the bottom over a year or two ago. We are in the very beginning of quite a hiring spree for qualified pilots. ALL of the schools are hiring or have been hiring SIM instructors to name a few here locally in the DFW area: AA, Southwest, Flight Safety, CAE Simuflite. This is just one leading indicator of hiring. Fedex, Jet blue, Alaska, Southwest, and soon to be AA and Delta are in hire mode. AA has been recalling and only getting a 10% return of former pilots. The 350 pilots that retired at AA in the last two months alone will trigger massive training requirements. (I have heard nine training events for every senior pilot retired). We haven't even seen the implications of age 65 retirements yet. All the other fractionals are either recalling or hiring.

The question will be whether Netjet's wants to keep FO's around who are qualified to apply to other jobs.

I think this can be one of the best times I have seen in aviation hiring in the past decade easily.

Time will tell...

 

[gunfyter]

T-1Guy

So now its you, me, and YIPPilot predicting the great pilot shortage is about to arrive

 

[G4dude]

T-1Guy

So now its you, me, and YIPPilot predicting the great pilot shortage is about to arrive

Add me to the list. But the discussion about salaries in general (at NJA) involve my concern about our ability to compete, which is not affected by shortages or feelings about how much a pilot is worth. If a competitor can staff planes with perfectly adequate pilots for 60 percent of what we pay, we are in a competitive disadvantage, which is a bad thing.

 

[BentOver]

Hey I'm all for getting the hiring started.....

But a 140 jobs at SWA, some hiring at JB, Delta cutting capacity and AA going through what they're going through, is not the type of hiring I'm talking about..

I'm talking about each and every company hiring 30 a month for years. That's the type of hiring I want to see. SWA looking for 140 is not gonna cut it. JB keeping their app window open for 10 days is not gonna cut it. When JB, SWA, Alaska etc. have their application windows open indefinitely, along with Delta, AA, UniCal, then I'll agree 100%..

Also I agree that the leading tell-tale sign is FSI, SIM, CAE hiring. But one or two centers in DFW does not equate to a hiring spree there either. If you look at FSI they have maybe 2 instructor openings right now. That's not alot. FSI CMH was looking for a bunch last year, but that was only due to some attrition and will soon be due to a new type (Global) coming soon.

Hiring is gonna ramp up, but I completely disagree that it has already started. From 1 of the 495 qualified guys, I can tell you we're not there yet. But hopefully in 2012/13 we will be. definitely can't fault your posive attitude though.

If only Luthi would have the same positive attitude!!

 

[wacoflyr]

T-1Guy

So now its you, me, and YIPPilot predicting the great pilot shortage is about to arrive

Yup, I agree. And it is not just the age 65 business. The kids can't get a bank to float them a six figure loan for the pilot mills. Both supply and demand are taking hits.

 

[VGerect]

Some like myself only care about the homebasing/free medical and making a comfortable living to be able to venture into other things outside of aviation. etc. Guys like me will go back. Won't be the same type of employee as before, but will go back.

Amen brother !
1 of 495

 

[rajflyboy]

Add me to the list. But the discussion about salaries in general (at NJA) involve my concern about our ability to compete, which is not affected by shortages or feelings about how much a pilot is worth. If a competitor can staff planes with perfectly adequate pilots for 60 percent of what we pay, we are in a competitive disadvantage, which is a bad thing.

Do you know anything about the financial history of the company during the 2000-2005 contract negotiation? Do you also know what the 06 and 07 profits were?

 

[BentOver]

Do you know anything about the financial history of the company during the 2000-2005 contract negotiation? Do you also know what the 06 and 07 profits were?

G4dude can simply start a fund and give a portion of his salary back to NJA...The rest of us will tell NJA to figure out how to make it work. There's a reason there is a contract and pay rates in place. Management agreed to them and they can figure out how to make NJA competative.

 

[imacdog]

And the simple fact is professionals get professional wages. I fly EMS now and I certainly don't see our nurses (pilots for that matter too) concerned about wanting to take pay cuts to undercut the competition.

 

[Pervis]

There is only one kind of person that would suggest limiting or cutting pilot salaries. Management type.

 

[jonjuan]

they can figure out how to make NJA competative.

Now that's irony right there. imp:

 

[fischman]

How childish. By the way, I DID offer to take a pay cut, to minimize the furloughs. Management said it wouldn't help, because we were simply overstaffed.

HONESTLY!!! Someone PLEASE explain to me WHY PILOTS HAVE NOT FIGURED OUT THAT CONCESSIONS DO NOT SAVE JOBS!?!



Where have you been the last 20 years? When was the last time a pilot offered up his salary and management didn't furlough anyway?

What happens when a concession is offered? The 4Q SEC filings show that the CEO managed to save the company $200 million in salaries, so the BOD gives him a nice $200 million bonus.

STOP GIVING MANAGEMENT YOUR HARD EARNED SALARY!!! GROW UP!!!

 

[CA1900]

Some folks don't learn from others' mistakes.

 

[rajflyboy]

G4dude can simply start a fund and give a portion of his salary back to NJA...The rest of us will tell NJA to figure out how to make it work. There's a reason there is a contract and pay rates in place. Management agreed to them and they can figure out how to make NJA competative.

Right on!

 

[G4dude]

Right on!

See my previous post.

 

[fischman]

What a shock. He doesn't answer my post.

 

[rajflyboy]

See my previous post.

ok Spanky

are you NJW wifey in disguise?

 

[G4dude]

HONESTLY!!! Someone PLEASE explain to me WHY PILOTS HAVE NOT FIGURED OUT THAT CONCESSIONS DO NOT SAVE JOBS!?!



Where have you been the last 20 years? When was the last time a pilot offered up his salary and management didn't furlough anyway?

What happens when a concession is offered? The 4Q SEC filings show that the CEO managed to save the company $200 million in salaries, so the BOD gives him a nice $200 million bonus.

STOP GIVING MANAGEMENT YOUR HARD EARNED SALARY!!! GROW UP!!!

Delta and United both accepted dramatically lower pay in order to survive. There are many more examples, Fischman.

 

[G4dude]

ok Spanky

are you NJW wifey in disguise?

Its funny, I don't agree with NJW on anything, but I admire her passion, her intelligence, and of course, my wife admires her boots.

 

[fischman]

Delta and United both accepted dramatically lower pay in order to survive. There are many more examples, Fischman.

Yeah. Tillmon's Christmas bonus was how much??? Survival is what management made ALPA believe (and they were foolish enough to believe it), when in reality the money went to the golden parachute. Now that Delta is out of trouble, have they given the pilots back what they conceded? No? Huh...

THE ONLY JOB A CONCESSION IS GOING TO SAVE IS HANSELL'S. Not yours.

Seriously, you can't be that dense...

 

[G4dude]

Yeah. Tillmon's Christmas bonus was how much??? Survival is what management made ALPA believe (and they were foolish enough to believe it), when in reality the money went to the golden parachute. Now that Delta is out of trouble, have they given the pilots back what they conceded? No? Huh...

THE ONLY JOB A CONCESSION IS GOING TO SAVE IS HANSELL'S. Not yours.

Seriously, you can't be that dense...

Fair question. What the Delta pilots got was to keep their jobs. I may be dense, but I AM cheerful and dorky.

 

[fischman]

They would have kept their jobs anyway. They were fooled.

But all was not lost. We were able to learn from their mistake at least.

 

[CA1900]

Exactly. Caving on scope is why we have lower-paid contractors doing the bulk of the domestic flying in this country.

I won't stand idly by and "help" the company by allowing them to outsource my job.

 

[BentOver]

Fair question. What the Delta pilots got was to keep their jobs. I may be dense, but I AM cheerful and dorky.

You do realize Delta did lay off north of 800 pilots.

And that not only did United lay off more than 1000. After recall and a small bit of hiring in '06-'07. They promptly furloughed again.

Comair pilots took a pay freeze and lost longetivity in 2005. And took a pay cut in 2006. TO SAVE THEY"RE JOBS.....They will soon be roughly 1/4 the size they once were. And it will take having more than 10 year seniority just to hold junior reserve FO in their most junior base.

Yup, pay cuts and concessions save jobs..

Not to mention USAir, NWA, AA (have had furloughees since 9/11)..

Congratulations. we've now found the most dense pilot at NJA... Tell him what he's won....."It's a brand new vagina!!"

For the non-NJA guys reading...He's maybe 1 out of 20 that think this way.. They're will be no concessions.

 

[Grizz]

I might be willing to entertain a limited scope exclusion in exchange for a restructuring of the seniority list by date of dues payment with corresponding flush bid.

Since G4 keeps posting totally asinine comments, I thought I'd add one to the mix.

 

[fischman]

Fair question. What the Delta pilots got was to keep their jobs. I may be dense, but I AM cheerful and dorky.

Have you heard of RJ's?

That's what happens when you give up scope and outsource your job.