NJA size

[BentOver]

Well Let's see I'm not one of them. Hmmmm....... Let's try and real. There is a market cap on labor just as there is a market cap on services and goods. I want to hear an honest number for an FO position? First off we have a finite market. Second we have competition that are already way below us in price and just as safe. Third we have an aging fleet and the company is shrinking. Sorry but this is not a formula for massive pay increases. Do you not realize the times we are living in? By every definition we are in a depression not a recession and the number of clients out there for our service is also shrinking not growing. This has absolutely nothing to do with ability, responsibility or liability. How about the regionals? Last time I checked they fly pretty sophisticated equipment and make $hit! This has nothing to do with anything but the fact that you guys came to NJA a little too late and now you're stuck in the right seat and pissed about it. Not my fault your timing sucks. It's just the way it is.

In that case I advocate a Captain pay cut to help the fledgling company in this depression. I mean, the company IS shrinking and all. You might as well help out. Currently top captain pay far exceeds the usually 40% difference in PIC/SIC pay. I vote we rectify that with a PIC pay cut to match the standard.

I gave an honest number.. Atleast $120K for say a 10-15 yr SIC....

Glad you don't negotiate for us.....

 

[imacdog]

This has nothing to do with anything but the fact that you guys came to NJA a little too late and now you're stuck in the right seat and pissed about it. Not my fault your timing sucks. It's just the way it is.

Actually KidD, I'm furloughed. I am at another job flying and making comparable wages to what I was. I decided not to go to NJA before 2005 because I was unwilling to do that work for such pathetic wages. When one would have to take a pay cut to go there from a regional, that's just g-d awful.

However, the simple fact remains that no matter what economic pressures are facing the company, the job itself does not change, and the pilots are entitled to fair compensation for their responsibility and liability. It sounds like you'd be the first to sign a concessionary contract to help the company out. Really unfortunate. As I said though, most pilots aren't as dumb as you when it comes to their professional self-worth. A little surprising coming from a fellow NJA pilot, not so much from Glass.

 

[glasspilot]

A little surprising coming from a fellow NJA pilot, not so much from Glass.

What's that supposed to mean? You upset I said $35 million wages are unrealistic?

 

[imacdog]

No I'm just not surprised to hear you don't feel pilots are worth much.

 

[glasspilot]

I never said anything like that. I'm all for the $35 mil. Just don't think it's realistic. More is better.

 

[KiddDynomite]

So imac, I'm an idiot, really. Well let's see I flew the pledge and was nearly fired, I fought for what we have, did you? No, so take your attitude elsewhere. I personally voted no for '05 and IBB both. Why? because there was more to be had and divifing the pilot group was a crappy idea. Times have changed, NJA has changed. We are no longer expanding. I am not advocating concessions but I can sure tell you that you're not going to see the wages you're talking about. When every other fractional pays less, charges less for the same service you better start to worry. If you really want to know you guys are going to be sold down the river so we can keep what we have and the junior captains will probably be downgraded. Reality sucks but that's where we live. Did you ever fly for a regional? If you did then why do you think you're worth something now and not back then? You guys crack me up. There's more to the equation than just money. I hate to tell you but unless you have about 200 guys in front of you, you're never coming back. The model is done. It's broken and the clowns running the show aren't doing anything to change that. This model can only support so much, a true fair wage is what the 18 day schedule pays. That's the number the 7 and 7 should be. So you can throw all the darts you want, we live in reality join the rest us in it!

 

[BentOver]

So imac, I'm an idiot, really. Well let's see I flew the pledge and was nearly fired, I fought for what we have, did you? No, so take your attitude elsewhere. I personally voted no for '05 and IBB both. Why? because there was more to be had and divifing the pilot group was a crappy idea. Times have changed, NJA has changed. We are no longer expanding. I am not advocating concessions but I can sure tell you that you're not going to see the wages you're talking about. When every other fractional pays less, charges less for the same service you better start to worry. If you really want to know you guys are going to be sold down the river so we can keep what we have and the junior captains will probably be downgraded. Reality sucks but that's where we live. Did you ever fly for a regional? If you did then why do you think you're worth something now and not back then? You guys crack me up. There's more to the equation than just money. I hate to tell you but unless you have about 200 guys in front of you, you're never coming back. The model is done. It's broken and the clowns running the show aren't doing anything to change that. This model can only support so much, a true fair wage is what the 18 day schedule pays. That's the number the 7 and 7 should be. So you can throw all the darts you want, we live in reality join the rest us in it!

Officially off the deep end.... Anything this fool posts from now on has zero credibility....

BTW..If IBB had been voted down it would have been one of the all time worst votes of all time...The fact that you voted no just shows your lack of sound judgement.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

So imac, I'm an idiot, really. Well let's see I flew the pledge and was nearly fired, I fought for what we have, did you? No, so take your attitude elsewhere. I personally voted no for '05 and IBB both. Why? because there was more to be had and divifing the pilot group was a crappy idea. Times have changed, NJA has changed. We are no longer expanding. I am not advocating concessions but I can sure tell you that you're not going to see the wages you're talking about. When every other fractional pays less, charges less for the same service you better start to worry. If you really want to know you guys are going to be sold down the river so we can keep what we have and the junior captains will probably be downgraded. Reality sucks but that's where we live. Did you ever fly for a regional? If you did then why do you think you're worth something now and not back then? You guys crack me up. There's more to the equation than just money. I hate to tell you but unless you have about 200 guys in front of you, you're never coming back. The model is done. It's broken and the clowns running the show aren't doing anything to change that. This model can only support so much, a true fair wage is what the 18 day schedule pays. That's the number the 7 and 7 should be. So you can throw all the darts you want, we live in reality join the rest us in it!

I think we know who man's the 1 spot on NJ's prestigious 5% senority list.......errrr 15%! Thanks for the update Captain sir

 

[imacdog]

I never said anything like that. I'm all for the $35 mil. Just don't think it's realistic. More is better.

You quoted KidD's post and said he was spot on. KidD's post was full of references to pilots not being worth much. You don't really pay much attention to what you say, do you?

 

[imacdog]

So imac, I'm an idiot, really. Well let's see I flew the pledge and was nearly fired, I fought for what we have, did you? No, so take your attitude elsewhere. I personally voted no for '05 and IBB both. Why? because there was more to be had and divifing the pilot group was a crappy idea. Times have changed, NJA has changed. We are no longer expanding.

It all makes sense now, Kid. You're one of "those guys". Every company has 'em. You'll never put your opinions on the union board because you wouldn't want anyone to tie your ideas to your name.

I am not advocating concessions but I can sure tell you that you're not going to see the wages you're talking about.

Most interesting. Would you mind pointing me exactly to where I mentioned a wage number? Anywhere on this thread at all? What I have been arguing for here is that despite your beliefs, the job we do is worthy of pay consistent with a career position involving a high level of knowlege, ability, responsibility, and liability.

 

[rajflyboy]

Officially off the deep end.... Anything this fool posts from now on has zero credibility....

BTW..If IBB had been voted down it would have been one of the all time worst votes of all time...The fact that you voted no just shows your lack of sound judgement.

Kidd is right on

Its you that is the fool. IBB was nothing more than a way for 2 union members to go to management. Many were fooled including you. Way too much was given up in the IBB bull********************. Trust me in saying the vote next time will be much much different. Obviously you are not paying attention to the ship and who is on it and where it is going.

We don't want to hear your ass complain about the NJI mess either. You voted for it and you got what you wanted.

SIC pay and basing could have been had without giving up everything else. So don't come on here and talk about pay because its total bull********************. Good luck on the next contract vote.

 

[BentOver]

Kidd is right on

Its you that is the fool. IBB was nothing more than a way for 2 union members to go to management. Many were fooled including you. Way too much was given up in the IBB bull********************. Trust me in saying the vote next time will be much much different. Obviously you are not paying attention to the ship and who is on it and where it is going.

We don't want to hear your ass complain about the NJI mess either. You voted for it and you got what you wanted.

SIC pay and basing could have been had without giving up everything else. So don't come on here and talk about pay because its total bull********************. Good luck on the next contract vote.

Spend from '05 until atleast 2010 at an unliveable wage commuting to 1/5 bases. And then try to negotiate something better in 2010 during the worst economic recession since the depression.. OR... Have an atleast acceptable wage from '07-'16, with acceptable basing scenario.....

Obviously you were already a captain who had "gotten theirs"...

Sorry you were outvoted by a large large margin...... I guess you just think you're smarter than the large majority.

So I guess there are now 2 NJA pilots on an anonymous board willing to sell SIC's down the river next vote.... Why don't you two go public on NJASAP or NJPilots.org...See how far you get.

 

[NJAowner]

SIC increases

Have no bone in this fight, but just go through the following:

NJA wants to get smaller
Smaller = fewer aircraft
fewer aircraft = fewer pilots needed by employer (if pilots per a/c do not increase)

fewer pilots needed by empoloyer usually does not mean raises for those remaining

Just about everyone on the planets things they are underpaid.

 

[rajflyboy]

Spend from '05 until atleast 2010 at an unliveable wage commuting to 1/5 bases. And then try to negotiate something better in 2010 during the worst economic recession since the depression.. OR... Have an atleast acceptable wage from '07-'16, with acceptable basing scenario.....

Obviously you were already a captain who had "gotten theirs"...

Sorry you were outvoted by a large large margin...... I guess you just think you're smarter than the large majority.

So I guess there are now 2 NJA pilots on an anonymous board willing to sell SIC's down the river next vote.... Why don't you two go public on NJASAP or NJPilots.org...See how far you get.

Try one impatient one whom can't read. Who said negotiate a contract in 2010? Nobody said a damn thing stating that?

 

[rajflyboy]

Have no bone in this fight, but just go through the following:

NJA wants to get smaller
Smaller = fewer aircraft
fewer aircraft = fewer pilots needed by employer (if pilots per a/c do not increase)

fewer pilots needed by empoloyer usually does not mean raises for those remaining

Just about everyone on the planets things they are underpaid.

Well said. Most of us will be happy just to maintain our current contract.

 

[gunfyter]

We are locked in till 2016 anyway.... I would be shocked if negotiations opened up before then and we got raises when they don't have to....

By then we are talking a whole different economy.

 

[Semore Butts]

Well said. Most of us will be happy just to maintain our current contract.

I think you're speaking for "most" of yourself.

Besides money, there are alot of issues that need to be addressed on the next contract, whenever that may be?

I.E. FO pay over 10 years? Scheduling? (Just to name a couple)

Jeez man, wake up!

"Most of us".......That's laughable.

 

[BentOver]

Try one impatient one whom can't read. Who said negotiate a contract in 2010? Nobody said a damn thing stating that?

By 2010 I meant that if IBB didn't pass. The next amendable date to the contract was to start in 2010... Sure IBB could have had some changes in it. But to think we would have gotten a better deal if we waited is highly debatable.....



NJAOwner..FWIW, based on the most recent communications, NJA is not intent on remaining smaller. Whether or not their "plan" works, or if they are competely lying to the group is also debatable. But there are "no intentions" of reducing staffing. I don't 100% believe them, but I'm not about to arbitrarily resign my seniority number either.

All I know is that for around 1000 pilots at NJA (SIC's), IBB was a very good product for us to support. And then there were the other PIC's that passed it with an astounding majority. If it had not passed, our SIC's would all be making much less than they are now, and most would have had to commute to 1 of 5 bases up until maybe last year. The whole reason for IBB was to curtail the attrition of SIC's because they had such a ********************ty deal from '05 and earlier.

 

[gret]

I think you're speaking for "most" of yourself.

Besides money, there are alot of issues that need to be addressed on the next contract, whenever that may be?

I.E. FO pay over 10 years? Scheduling? (Just to name a couple)

Jeez man, wake up!

"Most of us".......That's laughable.

...and the mere thought of lay-offs, buyouts, and parking a/c was laughable not too many years ago.

Owners leaving in droves, those remaining unhappy, and really no new a/c in almost 4 years....is that laughable too?

 

[Semore Butts]

...and the mere thought of lay-offs, buyouts, and parking a/c was laughable not too m

Don't know where you got that from my post?

So, you think that most pilots are satisfied with the contract?

 

[KiddDynomite]

You guys crack me up! Off the deep end, that's funny. Read what is being said and stop twisting things. I am not so high up on the captain's list as you think. In fact I am worried about keeping my seat if things go the way I see it and that is continued shrinking and an eventual downgrade. I voted no on '05 because I thought the FO's were getting screwed and the same in '07. We were at the peak in '05 and could have had about 205 more. That ship came and went. We are going to be in the fight for our lives just to keep what we have and I personally don't care what you think and how rosey the glasses you are looking through are. Reality is a different place and the writing on the wall is clear, NJA is shrinking. RAJ is right on the money with his observation, that the IBB was a tool for two certain somebodies to go to management. You guys are kool-aid drinkers who bought their ilk lock, stock and barrel. They kept the pilot group divided on basing alone. We gave up alot in '07 for raises and basing that could have been had for less. Let me tell you something the great one who went to management only wanted one thing and that was to build an ALPA type union for the fractionals. He was trying to make a name for himself and when it didn't happen quick enough for him he jumped ship after the IBB. That's reality. He should have stuck around a little longer on our side now that CA voted in 1108. I love your assumptions, it really is humorous. When you guys were laughing at NJA I was there fighting to make it a career not just a job. The when you decided to come over and you get shafted you have to attack. I'm sorry that the truth hurts but that's reality. A divisive '05 contract and '07 IBB passed because as usualy pilots voted with their wallets and bird in the hand mentality. If this company continues to shrink the senior guys will sell you out that's just the facts. There's no loyalty and don't fool yourselves thinking there is. These are different times and you need to read them. Oh one other thing I do post my thoughts on the union site because I could care less what you think!

 

[imacdog]

You may but your thoughts are quickly dismissed by others as being in the (very) minority. That is why it doesn't really matter what your opinions are; the pilot group as a whole is not of the same mindset as you.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

KiddD:

Ref your last sentence.

Couldn't care less. Again, it's "couldn't care less".

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[glasspilot]

Maybe he cares a great deal what they think. Then it makes sense that he could care less...

 

[NJAowner]

If I did not know better, I would swear that at least 90% of the posters on the board received an A+ (not even an A) in each of their English classes throughout school. If someone were to make a minor grammatical infraction on this board, dozens flock upon him to point it out. I surely hope that each of you is as diligent and corrective to your fellow pilots when it involves a FAA Reg. infraction by a fellow pilot or company -- that may save lives -- being a grammar policeman will not.

 

[glasspilot]

If I did not know better, I would swear that at least 90% of the posters on the board received an A+ (not even an A) in each of their English classes throughout school. If someone were to make a minor grammatical infraction on this board, dozens flock upon him to point it out. I surely hope that each of you is as diligent and corrective to your fellow pilots when it involves a FAA Reg. infraction by a fellow pilot or company -- that may save lives -- being a grammar policeman will not.

As a pasenger on a corporate airplane I wood think you wood want pilotts that cood spel good and use the inglish lanwidge wel. Mabe not.

 

[NJAowner]

Glass- I do -- but man you guys are relentless. The board acts like a pack of starving hyenas when someone throws them a "grammatical bone".

 

[wacoflyr]

We sit in hotel rooms at night, looking for something new on Netflicks. What else can we do but pick on each other?

 

[rajflyboy]

Kidd won't vote for any contract with concessions and neither will I.

but we are already being told by the pilot leaders about concerns for concessions? Now why would that be? Now why would they even bring it up? Who wants to switch sides this time?

PIC's will be much smarter when voting this time. You few bad sic's posting this crap make the GOOD sic's look bad.

 

[imacdog]

Yep, posting that career pilots at NJA deserve career wages sure makes us look bad.