NJA size

[glasspilot]

What's the ideal top end for FO pay?

 

[BentOver]

At a high end company like NJA, with the amount of work the pilots do, and given that SIC's will be well above 10 yr. SIC's.. I'd say a minimum of #120K for maybe a 15 yr. guy.... After that COLA adjustments.....

 

[KiddDynomite]

At a high end company like NJA, with the amount of work the pilots do, and given that SIC's will be well above 10 yr. SIC's.. I'd say a minimum of #120K for maybe a 15 yr. guy.... After that COLA adjustments.....

It will never happen! NJA was never designed to be a career, that happened through default and then the efforts of our union. There is a price point where customers will not payand add in an aging fleet and you have a recipe for further shrinking. I personally think we have maybe another 10-15% and then we reached our ceiling. No cuts whatsoever but you know this management team is going to be bunning for them!

 

[jtf]

What percentage of the pilot salary is in the net cost per hour of flight on these airplanes? It is pitifully small. Sure the prices may have to bump up, but if the company was doing their job of keeping the pax happy with new airframes and not screwing them over so often, then I would have to believe they would be willing to pay a little more. We are only worth what we negotiate and I think we could do better than another 10 to 15 percent by the time we actually have a new contract. I'm not saying we will do better, just that I believe we could. Either way, I do think a sizable portion of us right seaters will bolt and probably before there is another deal. I am not opposed to living in Asia if that is what I have to do to get paid what I think I'm worth so I will keep monitoring the foreign front. I'm not sure what my price is, but I do have a price and my current pay is well below it. I honestly think the pay should be all seniority based at NJA and not based on your seat since we are all deemed to be captains in the advertising. Just a single scale that goes up every year with us all wearing a 4th stripe. Even if the bottom is similar to the current SIC scale, it would still be fair since you still start with zero time and seniority and there won't be an SIC currently on property with less than 10 years by the time we negotiate a new contract.

 

[imacdog]

It will never happen! NJA was never designed to be a career, that happened through default and then the efforts of our union.

What a defeatist attitude. You're saying that flying high end clients in advanced business jets across the country and world isn't a career position?

 

[jonjuan]

What a defeatist attitude. You're saying that flying high end clients in advanced business jets across the country and world isn't a career position?

Make sure to tell your mortgage company that.

 

[glasspilot]

Maybe you shouldn't have such a big mortgage. Almost sounds like you support getting that loan based on future earnings.

 

[imacdog]

Make sure to tell your mortgage company that.

My mortgage company gets their payment on time because A) I did not purchase too much for what I made, B) I don't spend everything I make and therefore have savings for a rainy day, and C) I currently fly for a company where my services are valued enough to be paid appropriately.

 

[G4dude]

Why would NJA want to keep 10 year FOs on the property?

Great question! I hadn't thought of it that way. Attrition followed by hiring new FOs is probably what NJA wants. Hmmm.

 

[BentOver]

Great question! I hadn't thought of it that way. Attrition followed by hiring new FOs is probably what NJA wants. Hmmm.

Thats pretty much what any company wants.... No need to keep top pay guys, when the lower seniority guys do the same job for cheaper....Or new hires "just giddy to be here."

I'm sure NJA management already knows they will have 400+ "not as giddy as they once were" guys on their hands if a majority were to accept a recall..If indeed one does happen as planned..

 

[fischman]

At a high end company like NJA, with the amount of work the pilots do, and given that SIC's will be well above 10 yr. SIC's.. I'd say a minimum of #120K for maybe a 15 yr. guy.... After that COLA adjustments.....

I was thinking somewhere around $150,000 to $175,000.

 

[gunfyter]

I was thinking somewhere around $150,000 to $175,000.

Why so low?

 

[rettofly]

What percentage of the pilot salary is in the net cost per hour of flight on these airplanes? It is pitifully small.QUOTE]

$120K for a pilot who flies 500 hrs per year is $240/hr.

Toss in 50$ for fringe benefits and you get $360/hr.

Toss in two pilots making $120K base pay and you're at $720/hr.

I'd call that a bit more than a pitifully small percentage of the cost per flight hour for most corporate aircraft types.

 

[KiddDynomite]

Defeatist attitude? YGTBSM!!!! Seriously. Santulli conceived NJA to be low cost group ownership. This concept of high end didn't come into vogue until around 2000 and that was just to differentiate themselves from the competition. Were you even around during the days leading up to the '05 contract? Boisture had the balls to stand in front of recurrent classes bashing us and telling us straight out, "we don't want you here more than five years!" It was never designed to be a career. If it was the pay would have been better from the beginning but guys ran through the joint like rats in a maze, not one was around long enough to care. Second point, you're a chauffer! Plain and simple! When was the last time you had some owner truly ask you're professional opinion about a flight and take your word for it? It's a rarity and you know it. You're a well paid servant and that's it. If they could convince the owners that $25 an hour Riddle punks who can't cold start a 172 are safe they'd throw them in the seat tomorrow. Just because the people we fly around are loaded doesn't mean they light cigars with hundred dollar bills. They're smart with money and that's why they have it! When a better deal comes along they'll jump and don't give me the safety thing! All the fractionals are safe! Give me a break!

 

[BentOver]

I was thinking somewhere around $150,000 to $175,000.

I would love it...But I don't see Captains making $200K+ to fly a Phenom, -400 or Ultra.. (or whatever the heck else NJA flies these days)..

I think the best course is to have every pilot payed as a Captain, starting at the current SIC new hire pay. And ending at whatever the Captain pay scale tops out at... Provides excellent career expectations...

Year 1 Captain makes $60K+
....
...
...
10 years, $150K (or whatever it currently is)
...
...
17 years, whatver the top is.


NJA is slightly different than a legacy. No reason we can't have all Captains. The junior guy just has to be the "acting" co-pilot. And will never be "in charge" until he flies with someone junior to him. Which would require new-hires etc. Just like it is now with two PIC's paired together...

Also provides greater scheduling flexibility.

 

[jonjuan]

I was thinking somewhere around $150,000 to $175,000.

For a 3 year career? Not to shabby.

 

[glasspilot]

Too!

...not TOO shabby.

For the love of Jesus. Is to, too, and two too complicated!!!

 

[jonjuan]

Is to, too, and two too complicated!!!

Should be a ? after your rant there big guy.

For the love of Mohammed.

 

[fischman]

I would love it...But I don't see Captains making $200K+ to fly a Phenom, -400 or Ultra.. (or whatever the heck else NJA flies these days)..

I do.

 

[imacdog]

Defeatist attitude? YGTBSM!!!! Seriously. Santulli conceived NJA to be low cost group ownership. This concept of high end didn't come into vogue until around 2000 and that was just to differentiate themselves from the competition. Were you even around during the days leading up to the '05 contract? Boisture had the balls to stand in front of recurrent classes bashing us and telling us straight out, "we don't want you here more than five years!" It was never designed to be a career. If it was the pay would have been better from the beginning but guys ran through the joint like rats in a maze, not one was around long enough to care. Second point, you're a chauffer! Plain and simple! When was the last time you had some owner truly ask you're professional opinion about a flight and take your word for it? It's a rarity and you know it. You're a well paid servant and that's it. If they could convince the owners that $25 an hour Riddle punks who can't cold start a 172 are safe they'd throw them in the seat tomorrow. Just because the people we fly around are loaded doesn't mean they light cigars with hundred dollar bills. They're smart with money and that's why they have it! When a better deal comes along they'll jump and don't give me the safety thing! All the fractionals are safe! Give me a break!

I have a feeling that most managers in aviation would like to tell their employees that they don't want them to stick around for more than five years and that pay must be low due to their business model. Fortunately, most pilots are not stupid enough to go along with that premise and understand the importance, responsibility, and liability of the work they do. You, apparently, are not one of them.

 

[jtf]

What percentage of the pilot salary is in the net cost per hour of flight on these airplanes? It is pitifully small.QUOTE]

$120K for a pilot who flies 500 hrs per year is $240/hr.

Toss in 50$ for fringe benefits and you get $360/hr.

Toss in two pilots making $120K base pay and you're at $720/hr.

I'd call that a bit more than a pitifully small percentage of the cost per flight hour for most corporate aircraft types.

That is about 10 percent of what the they pay per hour on the Excel. That is about 5 percent of what they pay per hour on the big G's. That is still quite a small percentage of what NJA customers pay. I hope the guys and gals here will be willing to do whatever is necessary to push the wages up. I don't know how much you think you are worth, but I know I'm worth a heck of a lot more than I'm making now and I'm willing to do what it takes to make it happen. If it isn't at NJA, it will be somewhere else.

 

[glasspilot]

I love how pilots overestimate their worth. Why are you stopping at $250K? Why not $35 Million. What we do has to be more valuable than a Baseball Pitcher or a Hockey Goalie. Those are games and lives are not on the line. How about an actor? They're just pretending! How could that be worth more than a professional pilot who gets people around safely?

Heck, Bill Gates just lined up some ones and zeros...hows that worth more than a pilot??? We should definitely make more than HIM!!

 

[glasspilot]

Should be a ? after your rant there big guy.

For the love of Mohammed.

Nope, exclamation marks trump question marks. I wrote exactly what I meant...big guy.


IKYNTLWSGAAPI

 

[jonjuan]

I do.

Good luck with that dream. Margins are shrinking, not growing.

 

[jonjuan]

Nope, exclamation marks trump question marks. I wrote exactly what I meant...big guy.


IKYNTLWSGAAPI

Yet another glowing endorsement of inner city public education.

 

[jonjuan]

I love how pilots overestimate their worth. Why are you stopping at $250K? Why not $35 Million. What we do has to be more valuable than a Baseball Pitcher or a Hockey Goalie. Those are games and lives are not on the line. How about an actor? They're just pretending! How could that be worth more than a professional pilot who gets people around safely?

Heck, Bill Gates just lined up some ones and zeros...hows that worth more than a pilot??? We should definitely make more than HIM!!

Someone's nervous at the stock price of his company. Market of $25MM? NJA could trade one used G-IV for your entire company.

 

[BentOver]

Someone's nervous at the stock price of his company. Market of $25MM? NJA could trade one used G-IV for your entire company.

giggle giggle:beer:

 

[glasspilot]

Yet another glowing endorsement of inner city public education.

Yeah, my education is the one that's lacking. At least my inner city public education wasn't "to shabby".

 

[KiddDynomite]

I have a feeling that most managers in aviation would like to tell their employees that they don't want them to stick around for more than five years and that pay must be low due to their business model. Fortunately, most pilots are not stupid enough to go along with that premise and understand the importance, responsibility, and liability of the work they do. You, apparently, are not one of them.

Well Let's see I'm not one of them. Hmmmm....... Let's try and real. There is a market cap on labor just as there is a market cap on services and goods. I want to hear an honest number for an FO position? First off we have a finite market. Second we have competition that are already way below us in price and just as safe. Third we have an aging fleet and the company is shrinking. Sorry but this is not a formula for massive pay increases. Do you not realize the times we are living in? By every definition we are in a depression not a recession and the number of clients out there for our service is also shrinking not growing. This has absolutely nothing to do with ability, responsibility or liability. How about the regionals? Last time I checked they fly pretty sophisticated equipment and make $hit! This has nothing to do with anything but the fact that you guys came to NJA a little too late and now you're stuck in the right seat and pissed about it. Not my fault your timing sucks. It's just the way it is.

 

[glasspilot]

Nice post KiddD. Couldn't have said it better.