JBLU Management Answers Back

[Deli Guy]

I've accepted the fact that ALPA will probably win the election this time around. I'll be relieved. Because if they were defeated, the same group would either protest the results or then try TWU or some other trucking union. I'll be grateful to pay out the $5000/year dues for the 2-3 years it's going to take to get our first contract-- while maintaining status quo on pay and benefits. That's a pretty expensive ALPA decal...

The battle cry is "We want industry standard!" Please check out the pay rates of other E190 operators. Our JBLU E190 FOs make more money than Republic's E190 Captains. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc.html
Jetblue leads the industry in pay for the E190s.

The ALPA supporters pick and choose the great parts of every contract out there as their promise for greener pastures. Really? Our first contract will most likely be concessionary no matter what these ALPA supporters will tell you, that is just a fact of first contracts. What if we do end up with industry standard-- like no more pay protection for lost legs or trips due to IROP (APA-American). Or how about 50% pay for deadheads (ALPA-UAL). Be careful what you ask for, because these are examples of industry standards.

I love Democrats!!!

Industry standard came from a peer set. The 190 pay at other companies does not matter. The peer set is what was looked at. The company recognized that the Republic pay rates were not in the peer set. Stop shading the truth.

 

[Dan Roman]

All our contracts are membership ratified. ALPA National only signs off on what we want, not the other way around. As is well stated here, what you get is up to the individual airline, ALPA National is just a very good resource and partner, they do not dictate anything.

 

[Pilotbob3]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract if we went the ALPA route... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

I find it hard that someone thinks the way you do. It's scary. ALPA filed at the BEST possible time! The company doesn't want to NEGOTIATE with ALPA with a clean piece of paper. They wanted a subpar set of "mockuments" with pilot's signatures on it to create a negative foundation to keep us down.

I know I am wasting time trying to convince you to change your mind. You sound like a little kid stomping your feet. Why wouldn't JB mangement be amicaple negotiators? Why should they change from what you insinuate they are now? Revenge perhaps? It wouldn't make sense.

 

[Blue Dude]

Really? These documents were within weeks of a pilot vote. ALPA couldn't wait a few weeks after over a year of hard work by both sides? Give me a break-- try to spin it any way you want... But it was the poorest of timing!!!

I wrote this to you earlier. Did you even read it before hitting reply?

You seem to assume that the 5 documents would have had us negotiating from a position of strength. Instead, we would have spent a fair amount of negotiating capital just closing all the loopholes, much less achieving scope or M&A language worthy of the name. At least this way the company can't argue that we agreed to the weakest "protections" this side of Mesa and have established a precedent. I'd say the timing was pretty good.

It doesn't matter how close the documents were to being finished if they would have hurt us in negotiations. What part of that is unclear? You didn't even address this.

 

[banger]

played for a fool

Union or not I would not vote yes on the 5 mockuments. They are just a joke to occupy us and keep the illusion that management cares. BlueBayou you are being played for a fool

 

[OurMoney1]

A word of advice to the JBLU guys. Well done! Dont waste your time on individuals like BlueBayou. The sky is not falling and rhetoric is a waste of time at this point. You guys have this election in your sights now. Start planning phase II and pay no mind to the lounge lizards that can see only as far as their driveway mailbox.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

When United-Continental and Delta-Northwest pilots leave and form their own in-house unions (and they will, it only makes sense with the $$$$millions they keep to themselves), what will ALPA look like then? What will our dues look like to keep up with their fixed costs? Who will be left? ALPA had their own employees strike against them... Great organization!!!

Our model at JBLU has worked for 12 years. It is unique. It is not perfect. But not one pilot here has lost his job to a furlough. Not one pilot has been asked to give back any pay. How many unionized carriers can state that fact? Heck Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, American, United, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Mesa, and a host of others HAVE furloughed... I look at facts... And I'll be the first to laugh at the furloughs we have under ALPA... Furlough clause or not (DALPA)... You can take that to the bank-- FACTS not rumors or speculations...

 

[$$$4nothin]

A couple questions from a guy in the B6 pool. I have been doing as much reading on this ALPA topic as i can. Seeing how well teamsters has done at my current airline I have to admit I am not much of a pro union kind of guy at the moment. I do want what will be best for my career and family just like the rest of you so I do have a couple of questions.
1. Will ALPA be able to get that 10% of the flying the PVC gave away back.
2. I have heard the rumors of a B6 merger. Does this look like it is really a possibility, or is everyone just speculateing and guessing based on the current situation most airlines are in.
3. If ALPA does get voted in how long will it be until we are paying dues
4. When is the ammendable date of the contract
5. For all of you ALPA "major" guys in the know. How long does it take for ALPA to actually get a contract to the pilots to vote on.

 

[B6Busdriver]

A couple questions from a guy in the B6 pool. I have been doing as much reading on this ALPA topic as i can. Seeing how well teamsters has done at my current airline I have to admit I am not much of a pro union kind of guy at the moment. I do want what will be best for my career and family just like the rest of you so I do have a couple of questions.
1. Will ALPA be able to get that 10% of the flying the PVC gave away back.
2. I have heard the rumors of a B6 merger. Does this look like it is really a possibility, or is everyone just speculateing and guessing based on the current situation most airlines are in.
3. If ALPA does get voted in how long will it be until we are paying dues
4. When is the ammendable date of the contract
5. For all of you ALPA "major" guys in the know. How long does it take for ALPA to actually get a contract to the pilots to vote on.

1 The documents are dead. The company can do what they want.
2 A merger will definitely happen.....or not.
3 I think no dues until MEC structure complete.....correct me someone
4 They can amend anything they want when they want it.
5 Estimated 3 years

 

[$$$4nothin]

Our model at JBLU has worked for 12 years. It is unique. It is not perfect. But not one pilot here has lost his job to a furlough. Not one pilot has been asked to give back any pay. How many unionized carriers can state that fact? Heck Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, American, United, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Mesa, and a host of others HAVE furloughed... I look at facts... And I'll be the first to laugh at the furloughs we have under ALPA... Furlough clause or not (DALPA)... You can take that to the bank-- FACTS not rumors or speculations...

You do have some good points. I am very anti union (anti Teamsters to be exact) at the moment, but with the Legacy carriers retireing a cumulative 15000+ guys over the course of the next 15-20 years I would say furloughs aren't in the near future for many of us. Also, would you really laugh at your fellow B6 pilots that were furloughed, for any reason. That sucks, as I am soon to be at the bottom of your list I would probably be one of those guys.

 

[B6Busdriver]

When United-Continental and Delta-Northwest pilots leave and form their own in-house unions (and they will, it only makes sense with the $$$$millions they keep to themselves), what will ALPA look like then? What will our dues look like to keep up with their fixed costs? Who will be left? ALPA had their own employees strike against them... Great organization!!!

Our model at JBLU has worked for 12 years. It is unique. It is not perfect. But not one pilot here has lost his job to a furlough. Not one pilot has been asked to give back any pay. How many unionized carriers can state that fact? Heck Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, American, United, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Mesa, and a host of others HAVE furloughed... I look at facts... And I'll be the first to laugh at the furloughs we have under ALPA... Furlough clause or not (DALPA)... You can take that to the bank-- FACTS not rumors or speculations...

I hate to break it to you buddy, but Santa isn't real and neither is the Easter Bunny.

 

[$$$4nothin]

4 They can amend anything they want when they want it.

I am reffering more so to when will ALPA start negotiations, regarding a new contract.

 

[tico]

Amen. This is the crux of the matter. ALPA haters point to the National office when pilots get poor contracts. In fact, all National can do is ADVISE individual MECs on the proper path to take.

In virtually all cases where a pilot group has experienced a bad outcome it was the LOCAL MEC who made a decision that was at odds with National advice.

B6 pilots and ALPA pilots in general need to commit your last three lines to memory. Elect a bunch of self-righteous, egotistical slugs and what do you get? USAPA.

Or the contract you voted for in 2009....

 

[Fubijaakr]

Or the contract 85% voted for in 2009....

Fixed it for you.

 

[DonVerita]

You do have some good points. I am very anti union (anti Teamsters to be exact) at the moment...

Really? Let me say that again...Really!!

Do you think trade unionism is something you just turn on/off "at the moment"? You belong to a trucker's union and are now anti-union because you are dismayed with their results. What did you expect would happen with that level of representation? Why isn't your airline part of an airline union?

 

[waveflyer]

When United-Continental and Delta-Northwest pilots leave and form their own in-house unions (and they will, it only makes sense with the $$$$millions they keep to themselves), what will ALPA look like then? What will our dues look like to keep up with their fixed costs? Who will be left? ALPA had their own employees strike against them... Great organization!!!

Our model at JBLU has worked for 12 years. It is unique. It is not perfect. But not one pilot here has lost his job to a furlough. Not one pilot has been asked to give back any pay. How many unionized carriers can state that fact? Heck Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, American, United, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Mesa, and a host of others HAVE furloughed... I look at facts... And I'll be the first to laugh at the furloughs we have under ALPA... Furlough clause or not (DALPA)... You can take that to the bank-- FACTS not rumors or speculations...

First- sounds like form memo #1 on Ford & Harrison's mainframe. Bet it's in the welcome packet when the company puts them on retainer. "....if your pilots file w/ the NMB, send out this memo, then give us a call and we'll talk strategy...."
It's so Groundhog Day, it's pathetic anyone would be taken in by it.

2nd- BlueBayou, why would you ignore the fact that southwest is the most heavily unionized airline in the world?
If your mgmt is so great, they would not hesitate to put your contract in writing in an NMB/RLA enforceable way.

3rd- I agree with the air tran posters before. I have been critical of ALPA- and I have a healthy amount of skepticism of ALPA going fwd on the SLI w/ Swapa. I love our in-house union, but Alpa is not and cannot be our enemy- They are, hands-down, the best choice you can make with your mgmt team being who they are, and at the size and wages of your pilot group. You need their resources and we all need a well represented strong Jblu pilot group.
And a +1 on the strong LEC/MEC members. This most likely means those who do not want to run- ought to, and ought to be elected. A culture of service and sacrifice will serve you better than the political career track unions often lend themselves to.


Now, TO ANY JBLU PILOT- who negotiates for you now??

 

[Dan Roman]

Well said Wave. SWAPA has done a great job and I think we all agree having enlightened management has not hurt their cause at all. The whole industry could learn from them.
ALPA is an excellent resource for anyone who has to deal with the kind of shenanigans that started this thread.
It would take a long time for an independent union to get to the level of expertise that both SWAPA and ALPA have attained.

 

[My Man SMITH!]

JetBlue pilots-

Please try to ignore the pro-management kool-aid drinkers amongst your ranks. They fall into 2 sub-categories:

A - I've got mine screw everyone else, don't rock the boat 'cause I'm senior and will be retireing soon.
B- - The apathetic, excuse-ridden, scared little mice afraid of their own shadow and of standing up for themselves.

Disagree. After the first failed drive a majority of the 320 guys were upset with the rate changes to the 190. Second, after the spike in oil which resulted in the bid divisors being lowered we heard the vocal group tout against it and wanting the company to furlough. That's real nice. This would be granted under third party representation. I personally want what is best for this pilot group while keeping it a great place to work.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract if we went the ALPA route... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

I've got some crater front property on the moon I'd like to sell you! It blows my mind how guys fall for management's union busting tactics. I've never been a cheerleader for any union, but in this industry, it's a necessity. Management can and will do whatever the bottom line dictates. The 5 core values upon which this company was founded are gone. It's time for the pilot group to bring back the values and make this place a career destination. Management has shown it's true colors. This time, they will deal with one collective voice.....a voice chosen by the pilots instead of management. If management decides not to bargain in good faith, then that is simply a reflection of their true nature.

Together, JetBlue ALPA and the ELT can make this a great place to work. Management has their own representation. It is our legal right to have our own representation as well.

Pro JetBlue
Pro Union
Vote ALPA!

 

[waveflyer]

I think this ? always gets lost in the rest of my commentary-

Who represents and negotiates for JBlu now? And how did it form and who gets to serve in it?

 

[dicko]

+1 on the strong LEC/MEC members. This most likely means those who do not want to run- ought to, and ought to be elected. A culture of service and sacrifice will serve you better than the political career track unions often lend themselves to.

This is the key to fully utilizing the advantages of your union. Especially ALPA.

There are three major species involved in the Union jungle. You will see 'ALPA fanboys' and 'management drones'. They will both be nominated. It happens consistently.

Species 1- ALPA Fanboy

The ALPA fanboys are looking for a career on the 'full buy highway'. They will be knowledgeable, cunning and politically savvy. Consult the mugshots in an ALPA magazine for examples of this increasingly common species.

Species 2- Management Drone

The management drones are far easier to identify. They are probably already prominent in your current pseudo union. A rarer species since the last guys crossed a picket line. They do remain however, and can be easily identified with a dirty sanchez detector or an ultraviolet light.

Species 3- The Ones you Need

The men and women who will be best for your union are the honest pilots with a commitment to the pilot group. Thankfully this species is easy to identify. Unfortunately this species will not come willingly and may only appear when the other two species have made a mess or have been eaten.



imp:

 

[tico]

Fixed it for you.[/QUOTE
Thanks for the fix....good that you are one of the few....

 

[$$$4nothin]

What did you expect would happen with that level of representation? Why isn't your airline part of an airline union?

I didn't expect much at all. Which is why I am dismayed that I havn't even gotten that.
Because teamsters was voted in as our union long before I got here.

 

[shadesofBS]

A couple questions from a guy in the B6 pool. I have been doing as much reading on this ALPA topic as i can. Seeing how well teamsters has done at my current airline I have to admit I am not much of a pro union kind of guy at the moment. I do want what will be best for my career and family just like the rest of you so I do have a couple of questions.
1. Will ALPA be able to get that 10% of the flying the PVC gave away back.
2. I have heard the rumors of a B6 merger. Does this look like it is really a possibility, or is everyone just speculateing and guessing based on the current situation most airlines are in.
3. If ALPA does get voted in how long will it be until we are paying dues
4. When is the ammendable date of the contract
5. For all of you ALPA "major" guys in the know. How long does it take for ALPA to actually get a contract to the pilots to vote on.

If you want what's best for your career and your family, then don't work at JetBlue.

1. You will never upgrade so your lifetime earnings will suffer horribly. Growth is over. Jetblue is a cash cow and we are the milk maidens.

2. JetBlue has the WORST health insurance in the industry causing you to pay out of pocket for nearly everything. It's nothing more than a safety net. Ultimately, you will forego certain medical issues that you WOULD have taken care of at another airline.

3. Your retirement will be nearly 5% less over your career than other major airlines. That's close to a million dollars for most pilots.

Right now, Jetblue is little more than a stepping stone to a good airline job with good pay and benefits.

 

[Dizel8]

BlueBayou,

I asked this on another thread, but I'll ask again, is this your first airline job?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

BlueBayou,

I asked this on another thread, but I'll ask again, is this your first airline job?

DING DING DING.... My first and ONLY airline. Isn't that a rare thing nowadays!!! 12 years and counting... How many other ALPA careers follow this kind of path?

 

[$$$4nothin]

If you want what's best for your career and your family, then don't work at JetBlue.

1. You will never upgrade so your lifetime earnings will suffer horribly. Growth is over. Jetblue is a cash cow and we are the milk maidens.

2. JetBlue has the WORST health insurance in the industry causing you to pay out of pocket for nearly everything. It's nothing more than a safety net. Ultimately, you will forego certain medical issues that you WOULD have taken care of at another airline.

3. Your retirement will be nearly 5% less over your career than other major airlines. That's close to a million dollars for most pilots.

Right now, Jetblue is little more than a stepping stone to a good airline job with good pay and benefits.

1. Second year FO pay is the same as my 6th year Captain pay at my regional. So Ill take my chances

2. Good thing I'm on my wifes insurance then.

3. Again way more than my regional gives

4. What airlines have you been applying to then. Because as it is FEDEX hasn't called me yet. I do hope you get called to one of them though. 1 closer to my eventual upgrade.

 

[sayagain?]

1. Second year FO pay is the same as my 6th year Captain pay at my regional. So Ill take my chances

2. Good thing I'm on my wifes insurance then.

3. Again way more than my regional gives

4. What airlines have you been applying to then. Because as it is FEDEX hasn't called me yet. I do hope you get called to one of them though. 1 closer to my eventual upgrade.

And this is why JB hired jokers like $$$4nothin.

 

[sayagain?]

DING DING DING.... My first and ONLY airline. Isn't that a rare thing nowadays!!! 12 years and counting... How many other ALPA careers follow this kind of path?

Figures...one of the "Horrible 100"...it's all about you...

 

[Dizel8]

DING DING DING.... My first and ONLY airline. Isn't that a rare thing nowadays!!! 12 years and counting... How many other ALPA careers follow this kind of path?

Actually, ALPA has nothing to do with, they are not the reason an airline makes it or not, otherwise the skies would only be filled by non-union carriers, but clearly that isn't the case.

However, I will say congrats, scoring a job at a growing airline right out of the military is a great deal indeed.

What you do not understand, is how this job came to be something worthwhile, it wasn't because management wanted it to be so, it was because pilots fought for it, walked the line for it and in some cases, only through their deaths, did we make it safer for every one.

You truly do need to take of your blue colored glasses, this isn't the military, this is a completely different business, Big Blue does not care about you. You might think they do, but they don't, you are simply a number on a piece of paper, moving planes.

Do me a favor, read some books, like Flying the line part 1 and 2, for starters.

We didn't get here by chance, we got here because someone made some hard choices.