Yet another USAPA lawsuit

[Crzipilot]

I'm sure your insinuiating the distance learning arbitration etc... on that comment. Don't know the story, but watching the crew news, with a few comments of certain witnesses backing out, and etc...... It seems that the west looked at what was agreed upon and after the fact said whooooaaaa...why couldn't we do it this way. Kinda johnny come lately on that one. I could actually kinda see parkers perplexion as to what the issue was. The screams to talk to the PHX reps, well I'm pretty positive that's not the protocol used in settling the grievances and arbitrations. I.E. it any grievance goes through the grievance committee. either be involved with it or be without.

Hencey, just because your west, does not mean that the phx reps handle everything west, a lot more liability and other things that have to be adhered to for the PHX reps to become their own little union inside a union. Parker understood it, he didn't understand why the west pilots didn't.

It may or may not have been intentional but it seems as though what you guys were trying to imply was, any issues with west contract or west issues, simply go through west reps and we'll take care of it, don't worry about USAPA. the problem I guess is Parker knows it's not small AWA that he has to deal with, it's the whole structure..


Bringupthebird.

You see there might be many people willing to negotiate something in the middle, but you see. the west has screamed loud and clear they will accept the nic and NOTHING else. Meanwhile in defense the east says fine. DOH. West says you can't go off the nic 'cause there is no one on west to negotiate away from that because of the single carrier status.
I say BS to the 10th degree. If the people in charge of AOL or whatever it was, were to write down some conditions and restrictions and pass it across. in which there was a rebuttal to that, and so forth, eventually there might be a middle ground and AOL would not file lawsuit. so no dfr, and things would move one.

BUT THE WEST HAS CLEARLY STATED IT'S NIC OR NOTHING.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Isn't time on the west pilot's side? How long is the east willing to work under LOA 93 and how many senior east guys will retire before anything changes. My guess is the west has all the leverage on the long term outcome of this whole mess.

 

[Crzipilot]

The east is willing for as long as the little movement continues. RSV going to blocks, f/o's to capt, new hires off the street. It's small right now, but it could be simply the pebble gathering steam, turning into a great big boulder barreling down the mountain slope.
Mgment is in unchartered waters, and actually has to manage the staffing, faced with variables they have never faced before. The biggest one being, when confronted with adhearing to the robotic desire of management, some pilots say screw it, hand over their badge and walk away......

Movement is over east...and could start to be more than what it is now. At the same time, it could halt at the end of summer. we will see

 

[Turtle21]

..

Either way, how is the company going to prove, that by accepting the nic they will be subject to a work stoppage, ....

The 9th made it clear that the Nic is a bargaining position (but is not the court directed position) and directed the company and USAPA to bargain. If the company takes the bargaining position that they will only accept Nic, then the company and USAPA are at in impasse which of course then could end up in a legal work stoppage.

In other words, the company can't just accept the Nic, the company has to take a bargaining position.

 

[TWA Dude]

Don't know the story, but watching the crew news, with a few comments of certain witnesses backing out, and etc......

You're right, you don't know the story. Our man (former MEC Vice Chair Vasin) was working with the grievance committee on the DL as well as the TA10 issues. About two months ago he informed us (on the private AWAPPA message board where AWA pilots confer) that he'd withdrawn from participation because Parella was working against our interests and ignoring the input of West subject matter experts. He also correctly predicted that she'd try to pawn the blame on him.

It may or may not have been intentional but it seems as though what you guys were trying to imply was, any issues with west contract or west issues, simply go through west reps and we'll take care of it, don't worry about USAPA. the problem I guess is Parker knows it's not small AWA that he has to deal with, it's the whole structure..

Not exactly. What we needed Parker to know was that it was unacceptable for him to deal with USAPA on West-specific issues without even talking to any West pilots. Everybody knows USAPA lost a DFR trial so if they had any integrity whatsoever they'd be going out of their way to appease the West. Instead, they just add more fodder to legal battle.

If the people in charge of AOL or whatever it was, were to write down some conditions and restrictions and pass it across. in which there was a rebuttal to that, and so forth, eventually there might be a middle ground and AOL would not file lawsuit. so no dfr, and things would move one.

You still don't get it. AOL's sole purpose is the legal fight to protect what the West is entitled to. They aren't a bargaining agent. There's only one legal bargaining agent for the West and that's USAPA. Even our West reps can't negotiate for us because the BPR will simply outvote them on anything acceptable to the West. With ALPA gone there's no more negotiating!

BUT THE WEST HAS CLEARLY STATED IT'S NIC OR NOTHING.

Finally, you do understand something correctly. See you in Judge Silver's court.

 

[TWA Dude]

If the company takes the bargaining position that they will only accept Nic, then the company and USAPA are at in impasse which of course then could end up in a legal work stoppage..

The NMB doesn't exist in a vacuum. They know what binding arbitration is even if the East doesn't. Just go ahead and see if they release USAPA to strike over the Nic. I double-dog dare you.

Oh, and how do you think it'll look when every West pilot votes against striking? When's the last time a union struck with less than 75% member approval? (Or even 98%, for that matter.)

 

[Turtle21]

The NMB doesn't exist in a vacuum. They know what binding arbitration is even if the East doesn't. Just go ahead and see if they release USAPA to strike over the Nic. I double-dog dare you.

Oh, and how do you think it'll look when every West pilot votes against striking? When's the last time a union struck with less than 75% member approval? (Or even 98%, for that matter.)

I didn't say anybody is going to strike.

The post I was responding to assumed the company can choose to accept the Nic, which is not accurate. The company must take a bargaining position. The COMPANY is the one who recognizes that the 9th requires them to bargain with USAPA (take a bargaining position). They are concerned about the possibility of liability if they don't hold to the Nic bargaining position, and at the same time they are concerned that if they do hold to the Nic bargaining position they will be at an impasse with the bargaining agent.

 

[waveflyer]

The east had their chance to "bargain"-

 

[vetrider]

The east had their chance to "bargain"-

Yep. And the only reason the subject of 'bargaining' is even broached these days is because their original usapa plan blew up in their faces.

 

[eaglesview]

The east had their chance to "bargain"-

Really the East can no longer bargain with the company?? Did something change. Is USAPA no longer the union that represents the pilots??

 

[get2flyin]

BUT THE WEST HAS CLEARLY STATED IT'S NIC OR NOTHING.

And the East has stated it's DOH or separate ops forever. The West isn't screaming, "Straight integration, no exceptions for the wide-bodies". The difference between the East and the West is the Nic was a negotiated "middle ground". The West pilots just want you to live up to your agreements..I know, that's a lot to ask.

But wait...You say DOH is in the constitution and therefore USAPA cannot negotiate anything else? Are you serious? You Southerners might as well have put something in about "whites only bathrooms" or "women's votes don't count". How much credence does that "gold standard" have when you consider the fact that it was put it in your AFTER the East demanded DOH and was denied? Furthermore, isn't there a new law that will dictate how mergers are done? Yeah, there is. I bet if we were to merge with AA and APA placed a requirement for "stapling any other entity below AA pilots" in their by laws, you'd throw yourselves on the floor and have another one of the well documented East tantrums. The East behavior is funny...in a sad sort of way. Good luck with your "good union pilot" games.

 

[waveflyer]

Really the East can no longer bargain with the company?? Did something change. Is USAPA no longer the union that represents the pilots??

Sorry eag- they can "bargain" all they want - but they'd be party to the lawsuits from west pilots too. Why would they when they benefit from this conflict? As long as the east is this stupid the bankruptcy contract is in play and "legacy" pilots will be flying airbus's at RJ wages- undercutting the whole industry over what in the end is a fair and equitable list.

And that's what gets lost in this debate, and it's what every west pilot will not forget. The Nic award when you care to read it and look at the list, IS FAIR. There's no possible list that could have been appreciably different in this scenario. The East simply have over the top, irrational expectations- confusing seniority and longevity- but have the democratic numbers to throw this unrealistic fit.

The VAST MAJORITY OF ALL AIRLINE PILOTS THINK THAT NIC IS FAIR.
Don't lose sight of that. But let's say you don't... -- this is still a colossally dumb reaction to it.

Again- the only beneficiaries are Parker and each side's attorneys. The east is literally paying Hundreds of $millions to Parker to delay the inevitable. It would be better for all pilots, including the East(!), to literally burn the place down, run it out of business, and start over at whatever company picks up the pieces.

This is financially the stupidest thing pilots have ever done in airline history.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The 9th made it clear that the Nic is a bargaining position (but is not the court directed position) and directed the company and USAPA to bargain. If the company takes the bargaining position that they will only accept Nic, then the company and USAPA are at in impasse which of course then could end up in a legal work stoppage.

In other words, the company can't just accept the Nic, the company has to take a bargaining position.

No, the transition agreement laid out the requirements for an integrated seniority list which the Nic met and was therefore accepted. The language of the transition agreement is their bargaining position.

Had USAPA pulled off their coup about a year earlier than they did, they could have imposed whatever seniority integration they wanted. Because they waited to see if the bread landed butter side up or not, they are committed to using the list that was produced through the TA process. They have all the responsibility for implementing a list without the authority to change it.

No one has ever bragged about how bright the Founding Bubbas of USAPA were.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I actually agree with Parker over this. Complaining about "that woman" or "those...people" is foolish. If we have a problem with the union, replace the union. While Parker has an obligation to show leadership, so do those who are dissatisfied with USAPA. Continuing to fund legal battles instead of mounting a robust alternative union and card drive is throwing money out the window.

If you have a leaking faucet, do you spend the money on buying dozens of buckets, or paying a plumber?

 

[The Rookie]

No, the transition agreement laid out the requirements for an integrated seniority list which the Nic met and was therefore accepted. The language of the transition agreement is their bargaining position.

Had USAPA pulled off their coup about a year earlier than they did, they could have imposed whatever seniority integration they wanted. Because they waited to see if the bread landed butter side up or not, they are committed to using the list that was produced through the TA process. They have all the responsibility for implementing a list without the authority to change it.

No one has ever bragged about how bright the Founding Bubbas of USAPA were.

Exactly.

The East and West pilots voted in the Transition Agreement in 2005 that lays out the framework on how the two airline’s seniority lists will be integrated:

The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline Parties for acceptance.

The Nicolau Award was the outcome of the application of ALPA Merger Policy. The two groups followed the path of negotiations, mediation and then a subsequent arbitration. Despite what Doug Parker says, the company admitted in the filing of the Declaratory Judgment, that they have accepted the Nicolau Award as the integrated list between the two airline groups.

Despite a change in name over the door of the union hall, USAPA is still liable to enforce the contracts that the previous bargaining agent had negotiated on behalf of the pilots of both US Airways and America West.

So why are all of the parties in court over this when the Transition Agreement sets the framework for this process?

Money.

With a conservative estimate of $160 million a year in lost wages, USAPA and their East enablers will have given the company a BILLION dollar concession at the end of this dispute. Despite the promises of snapbacks and retro-wages, this money has been lost forever to the pilots of US Airways and is now in the pockets of Doug Parker and his senior leadership team.

 

[FR8mastr]

You're right, you don't know the story. Our man (former MEC Vice Chair Vasin) was working with the grievance committee on the DL as well as the TA10 issues. About two months ago he informed us (on the private AWAPPA message board where AWA pilots confer) that he'd withdrawn from participation because Parella was working against our interests and ignoring the input of West subject matter experts.

You don't think you are alone in this do you? Welcome to the club

 

[eaglesview]

Sorry eag- they can "bargain" all they want - but they'd be party to the lawsuits from west pilots too. Why would they when they benefit from this conflict? As long as the east is this stupid the bankruptcy contract is in play and "legacy" pilots will be flying airbus's at RJ wages- undercutting the whole industry over what in the end is a fair and equitable list.

And that's what gets lost in this debate, and it's what every west pilot will not forget. The Nic award when you care to read it and look at the list, IS FAIR. There's no possible list that could have been appreciably different in this scenario. The East simply have over the top, irrational expectations- confusing seniority and longevity- but have the democratic numbers to throw this unrealistic fit.

The VAST MAJORITY OF ALL AIRLINE PILOTS THINK THAT NIC IS FAIR.
Don't lose sight of that. But let's say you don't... -- this is still a colossally dumb reaction to it.

Again- the only beneficiaries are Parker and each side's attorneys. The east is literally paying Hundreds of $millions to Parker to delay the inevitable. It would be better for all pilots, including the East(!), to literally burn the place down, run it out of business, and start over at whatever company picks up the pieces.

This is financially the stupidest thing pilots have ever done in airline history.

You make some valid points like the rest of us are being affected by the USAir wages while we are trying to get contracts. That is why I hope the East is successful in getting there rightful snap backs. It's in black and white the company owes them the money.

As a United pilot that works with some of the most junior pilots at United I can say with confidence that the majority of the pilots I work with do not think the nic is fair. For a moment lets take the CO/UA merger. The pilots I fly with have much more longevity and much less seniority than do their counterparts at CO. However almost all of them, pending on their age, will retire as widebody captains. The same can not be said for their "equals" at CO. In fact a good portion of the CO narrow body Captains would never have made widebody Captains. Just because the CO pilot reached his/her career expectation sooner than the UA pilot does not mean he gets to come over and block the UA pilot from ever reaching the career expectation he has today. The parralells here with USAir are obvious.

The West like to say they "saved" USAir. No one will ever no if that is true. If it was so obvious why didn't Parker pick it up at the fire sale. Another reality is wether the nic or DOH is used the the majority of the west pilots will end up in the same position on the seniority list due to their youth factor. If the nic is used the East will never reach their career expectation and will never make up the loss due to their age. At the time of the merger the West were never slated to fly heavy airplanes internationally the East obviously were.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Nobody retires off the widebody that is mothballed in the desert.

 

[eaglesview]

So predictable

 

[get2flyin]

As a United pilot that works with some of the most junior pilots at United I can say with confidence that the majority of the pilots I work with do not think the nic is fair.

I don't work for UAL so obviously you have a better idea of what the average line guy thinks, but any UAL pilot I've ever spoken with has a tremendous disdain for the East. I've heard stories about East FOs asking UAL crews out over the Atlantic what kind of Captain schedule their DOH would buy them back when USAir and UAL were hot and heavy. And who could forget the "we (the MEC) want to have a face to face with you UAL guys...and bring the 747 manuals, we can't wait to use our DOH to bid it". Maybe time and circumstance change things.