Jet Blue Pilots Files with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

[Turtle21]

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Been there and done that thing brother in Gulf 1. It is our battle and we need your support.

I said elect whoever you want.

I used to be an advocate for ALPA until they repeatedly denied membership ratification and ALPA (unelected) national leaders replaced my local reps and obstructed recalls of my local reps that were colluding with national against our own pilot groups interests. Some of them were rewarded for their collusion by being granted national positions. But that was then. Maybe ALPA turned a new leaf.

But again, its your battle. Pick whoever you want. You all are writing the check; make it out to whoever you want.

Just remember the secret advice ALPA sold me. "No matter who you send your dues to.. It will always be your fault."

 

[Turtle21]

I love how all of the clowns talking about ALPA outsourcing jobs are at airlines that are after deregulation and never had any contract like the ones in the old days......It's because of these very same airlines and pilots that this industry is in the toilet!!

Name one airline that is LEGACY that doesn't have RJ's and SWA doesn't count. blaming ALPA is an absolute smoke and mirror game.....what say the USAPA guys....did they get rid of the RJ scourge? Thought so.....

ALPA is built for ALPA national. RJs and regionals fit fine in that dues scenario. National has no self interest to change that. Big deal. Its a jungle. Paying money to other people won't change that.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I can't wait for my $7500/year ALPA sticker... Save up guys, even though it'll take 2-3 years for our first contract-- we'll be paying dues for status-quo right away. My advice would be to wait until we have the contract then pay the lump sum, that way you'll be saving the interest you could earn prior to that and also take the maximum deduction for taxes that year...

 

[scoreboardII]

Status quo? I think based on threats from management you'll be lucky if you don't take a 15% hit day one and outsource of the 190's. I do wish you well, good luck.

 

[ualdriver]

The fact is UAL pilots had the "dream" contract before 9/11. This contract was gained through many years of negotiations, slowdowns and strikes. However, the company has the ultimate power-- called bankruptcy. The reset button was pushed and all those years and contracts went down the tubes. No union will ever prevent that.

You know what? You are absolutely right.

One of the biggest problems that I think most pilots have about unions is that they fail to understand what a union CAN and CANNOT do for them. Let me give you a couple of painful examples.

In the case of UAL mentioned above and Contract 2000, unions, including ALPA, cannot overcome market forces. Market forces will ALWAYS win eventually. In Contract 2000, UAL pilots had narrow body guys, for example, making 240K per year + a pension + a B fund + cherry work rules competing against airlines like JetBlue (among others) working for 100K/year, FAR work rules, and no retirement. Now tell me, how can any airline pilot union contract, with the profit margins that exist in this industry, survive against discount airline pilot labor competition? It can't, and that is exactly what happened to us. Is it ALPA's fault that the wages and pattern bargaining at all the ALPA legacy carriers was lost in the early 2000's under the onslaught of the discount airline pilot, or was it market forces that caused it? Of course, it was market forces and they always win. I was never mad at ALPA for failing to overcome these forces because it is impossible to do so. However, many pilots feel that ALPA has this magic wand they can wave that make market forces go away, and when it doesn't work it's "ALPA's fault." I think the blame lays elsewhere.

How about the situation with TWA? Here we have an ALPA carrier on the ropes, about to go into bankruptcy. Unfortunately, the airline business in the US is incredibly darwin-istic and unfortunately for the TWA guys it did not work out for their airline. They get an offer from another airline and cut a deal with no promises, and are unhappy with the results.....so they sue ALPA. It's all ALPA's fault.

Now tell me, what did the TWA pilots expect when their bankrupt carrier is about to die? Did they expect ALPA to wave that magic wand again and get their pilots at a dead carrier a DOH seniority integration with a healthy carrier much better off than theirs? Who in the world could expect ALPA, or any union for that matter, to make a pilot at a bankrupt carrier somehow magically whole again? So again, a pilot's career didn't work out how he planned, his carrier goes bankrupt, and it is ALPA's fault. Then the ALPA bashers have some more "ammo."

I guess the executive version of the above is that one has to understand what a union can and cannot do. When the economy tanks, when the price of your labor is significantly undercut by the competition, when oil prices get high, when you get bad management, etc., etc., bad things happen in the airline business and no union on the planet can protect you from the repercussions of those events. If you get that, you're more knowledgeable about unions than 99% of the guys out there.

 

[chppr5]

I can't wait for my $7500/year ALPA sticker... Save up guys, even though it'll take 2-3 years for our first contract-- we'll be paying dues for status-quo right away. My advice would be to wait until we have the contract then pay the lump sum, that way you'll be saving the interest you could earn prior to that and also take the maximum deduction for taxes that year...

WOW, you guys make 400K a year? I agree, you don't need a union. Some of you forget about ALPA's presence in D.C. How many times have APA, SWPA, FPA, UPSPA, USAPA etc. been invited to Capital Hill to advocate for pilots as a group, even those they DON'T represent? ALPA is not the greatest but they are by far better than the alternative. Ask all those in-house unions who they go to for resources and expertise. Think of your dues as a retainer for a lawyer or aero medical expert in the event you screw up or get sick.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm glad ALPA has a couple fans. John Prater is another one that has received an ROI (Did he help bring back CAL, with their scabs, into the fold of dues members in good standing? Did that dues tsunami into ALPA coffers have anything to do with his meteoric rise to king of the hill? Things that make ya go hmmm.)

For every pilot that applauds ALPA you can find 20 that have seen the light. ALAP sits over numerous competing pilot groups with conflicting agendas. Its little more than a self confessed ponzi scheme that pats itself on the back when it "succeeds" and belittles pilots when "the pilots fail". Just ask Rez and PCL who is to blame.

ALPA has a lot of fans. The problem is that they don't waste their time posting here. I probably shouldn't be either.

The whole Continental thing is another argument that I don't buy from the ALPA haters. I mean, let's look at this objectively.

Obviously the CAL guys thought ALPA was their best choice for representation, and obviously they have a small number of scabs on their property, just like we do. This number will get smaller every day after December 2012.

So CAL wants ALPA representation. What is ALPA supposed to do? Tell them no, sorry, you have small percentage of scabs on your property so therefore you can't join? A few scabs get to determine what the majority of pilots want at CAL for a union? If that was the case, then I guess the scabs at CAL would win again, huh?

ALPA took them in, scabs and all, knowing these scabs would be gone in a few years.

And the other comments that people make about ALPA only caring about dues money. I think that is untrue. Again, let me give you an example.

ALPA represents many regional carriers. Many of these smaller regional carriers cannot support themselves financially, and they do not pay their "fair share" of the services that are provided to them by ALPA.

Now, answer me this: why would ALPA take on a bunch of dues draining smaller carriers if all they care about is money? That argument makes no sense. If all they cared about was the money, they would cease to represent many smaller carriers TOMORROW.

In my opinion that argument about only caring about dues money is ridiculous. I think what ALPA cares about is becoming the biggest, most powerful, airline pilot union in the country, and you get there by trying to represent every airline pilot in the country. When you represent every pilot in the country, you have power. You get a seat at the table when issues pertaining to airline pilots come up in Washington, for example. Again, that does not mean ALPA gets everything it wants, every time. That means it gets to at least INFLUENCE those decisions when it doesn't get it's way and compromises are made. How much influence did ALPA have on these rest rules, for example, vs. the JetBlue or Virgin America pilots? Who was testifying in front of Congress, telling the world about the abysmal treatment regional airline pilots face after the Buffalo crash? Was it Prater or someone else from another pilot's union? Do you think it is good or bad to have a powerful representative on the Hill when issues affecting airline pilots pop up? Or should we all be divided with our own little "utopian" unions delivering a fractured message that isn't heard at all?

On ALPA's quest to obtain this goal of representing every airline pilot, the haters just say, hey look, all ALPA cares is about the dues! Look, they took CAL pilots because they get more dues that way! That's all ALPA cares about! And of course, if you are going to be cynical, then yeah, I could see why a guy would state that. However, hopefully you can step back, look at things more objectively, realize that many decisions made are shades of grey vs. black and white, and come to informed conclusions about why this nebulous and imperfect "ALPA" does what it does.

 

[sligo1]

I can't wait for my $7500/year ALPA sticker... Save up guys, even though it'll take 2-3 years for our first contract-- we'll be paying dues for status-quo right away. My advice would be to wait until we have the contract then pay the lump sum, that way you'll be saving the interest you could earn prior to that and also take the maximum deduction for taxes that year...

You must work at a different J.B. because your 7500.00 per year would equal about $375,000.00 per year. I highly doubt that. Get your facts straight about dues.

 

[dicko]

Some of you forget about ALPA's presence in D.C. How many times have APA, SWPA, FPA, UPSPA, USAPA etc. been invited to Capital Hill to advocate for pilots as a group, even those they DON'T represent? ALPA is not the greatest but they are by far better than the alternative. Ask all those in-house unions who they go to for resources and expertise. Think of your dues as a retainer for a lawyer or aero medical expert in the event you screw up or get sick.

They went to Capitol Hill and cock blocked the effort to require 1500 hours to be an FO.

They didn't represent me and they sure as hell didn't represent the safety of the traveling public. They represented the regional airlines need for cheap and inexperienced labor.




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[Turtle21]

ALPA has a lot of fans. The problem is that they don't waste their time posting here. I probably shouldn't be either.

....

When ALPA National actively used their power to subvert and counter my pilot group's democratic right to elect our own reps (contrary to our vote, and then obstructed our right to recall the reps that were colluding with National) they sealed their own demise on our property.

Interference and denial of our democratic rights regarding our own reps was the last straw. They took our money and told us who our reps would be. They got booted. Simple as that.

JetBlue (and all pilot groups) should vote for who they want to be their reps. No argument from me.