Message From UAL MEC Chariman

[nimtz]

No different at CAL, although not the wholesale selling out of 1500 guys right to the street like at UAL. That's brutal. But CAL's B-scale, no medical for new hires, and inhumane reserve rules pretty much trashed the life of the bottom third.

Believe it or not, UAL's initial bankruptcy contract was worse then Goat Boy's Contract '02 IF you were a narrowbody guy.

 

[johnsonrod]

Call your reps, both airlines. Tell them to end this minor impasse that would benefit so few, it's blocking the road to progress.

I don't understand why UAL guys wouldn't want the 777 and 744 at the same payscale since they have a lot of both? That would be top scale for MORE pilots. Come on now!

 

[Jetjockey]

I agree with the CAL MEC position. Separate 747-400 pay rates benefits so few at the very top. Like age 65 didn't help the senior guys enough!

 

[jonjuan]

I don't understand why UAL guys wouldn't want the 777 and 744 at the same payscale since they have a lot of both? That would be top scale for MORE pilots. Come on now!

............................................

 

["TheBigPicture"]

Management:

Laughing all the way to the bank since 1903.

questions??

 

[waveflyer]

Why do you all put up with such disparity of pay between types?
Why do you not blend the rates?
I can't count how many pilots I know flying widebodies around at ages that they would rather not fly long haul routes- most would rather run turns and be home-
One scale rids you of the divisiveness and let's each of you perform the type of flying that you WANT to, not the type you financially have to do.

 

[Vref+10]

Wendy’s spin was nice. But the reality is that it is 180 degrees from the real truth.

I’m writing this as a CAL pilot who has talked to my reps.

We asked the UAL MEC what they wanted for B747 pay. Then we simply requested that the B777 be included in that same pay category, thus providing more pay for everyone. But the UAL MEC wanted the B777 to be paid LESS. Why would the UAL MEC want the B777 paid lower? That is less money for everyone. Simple answer – seniority grab. Yet they try to hide behind some resolution. Give me a break.

For any United pilot that wants to get on here and go on about “concessionary contract pay rate banding BS”… please spare me the crap. Look at the UPS pilot contract. All equipment is paid in the same band. Is that a concessionary contract? http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/ups.html A UPS First Officer on any equipment makes more than a United B767 Captain. Whether certain equipment is paid the same or not has no bearing on it being concessionary. The actual pay rate has more to do with it.

The ironic thing about this is that Jayson Baron has done more for the furloughed United pilots through the Transition Agreement in agreeing to hire all of the furloughed United pilots, than their own MEC has done for them in the past (selling them out on SCOPE). My understanding is that the UAL MEC sold the furloughed pilots down the river on the LOA that gave up scope further (whiteford?). Don’t get me wrong about hiring the furloughed United pilots - this is the right thing to do. But we could have played hard ball on the Transition Agreement and demanded certain things in return for hiring all of the furloughed United pilots. We did not do that. And for one of the UAL local council reps to come out and trash Jayson Baron in a blast mail is the unthinkable.

One more point worth mentioning. United’s contract had horrible language with regards to merger scope protection. Our contract did have merger scope protection. However, Smisek could have shrunk United way down and/or shifted flying to us. We also played nice on this issue in the Transition Agreement and made sure that United had the same level of protection to prevent whipsawing. If we were after some sort of seniority grab as the UAL MEC insinuates, then we could have played hardball on this issue, as this would have benefited us greatly on the seniority list integration.

Wendy owes the Continental pilots an apology. So does the entire UAL MEC. I trust that this issue will be resolved, but even after it is, I fear that the UAL MEC has created permanent damage in unity over this ridiculous issue. You have to choose your battles. This is certainly not one of them.

Some of you guys should think about emailing your United reps about this.

 

[Shrek]

Wendy’s spin was nice. But the reality is that it is 180 degrees from the real truth.

I’m writing this as a CAL pilot who has talked to my reps.

We asked the UAL MEC what they wanted for B747 pay. Then we simply requested that the B777 be included in that same pay category, thus providing more pay for everyone. But the UAL MEC wanted the B777 to be paid LESS. Why would the UAL MEC want the B777 paid lower? That is less money for everyone. Simple answer – seniority grab. Yet they try to hide behind some resolution. Give me a break.

For any United pilot that wants to get on here and go on about “concessionary contract pay rate banding BS”… please spare me the crap. Look at the UPS pilot contract. All equipment is paid in the same band. Is that a concessionary contract? http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/ups.html A UPS First Officer on any equipment makes more than a United B767 Captain. Whether certain equipment is paid the same or not has no bearing on it being concessionary. The actual pay rate has more to do with it.

The ironic thing about this is that Jayson Baron has done more for the furloughed United pilots through the Transition Agreement in agreeing to hire all of the furloughed United pilots, than their own MEC has done for them in the past (selling them out on SCOPE). My understanding is that the UAL MEC sold the furloughed pilots down the river on the LOA that gave up scope further (whiteford?). Don’t get me wrong about hiring the furloughed United pilots - this is the right thing to do. But we could have played hard ball on the Transition Agreement and demanded certain things in return for hiring all of the furloughed United pilots. We did not do that. And for one of the UAL local council reps to come out and trash Jayson Baron in a blast mail is the unthinkable.

One more point worth mentioning. United’s contract had horrible language with regards to merger scope protection. Our contract did have merger scope protection. However, Smisek could have shrunk United way down and/or shifted flying to us. We also played nice on this issue in the Transition Agreement and made sure that United had the same level of protection to prevent whipsawing. If we were after some sort of seniority grab as the UAL MEC insinuates, then we could have played hardball on this issue, as this would have benefited us greatly on the seniority list integration.

Wendy owes the Continental pilots an apology. So does the entire UAL MEC. I trust that this issue will be resolved, but even after it is, I fear that the UAL MEC has created permanent damage in unity over this ridiculous issue. You have to choose your battles. This is certainly not one of them.

Some of you guys should think about emailing your United reps about this.

All or nothing BAND EVERYTHING or band nothing. Since there doesn't seem to be a push for banding everything.....

Keep the JCBA and SLI apart - period.
ALPA merer policy states JCBA and SLI remain seperate processes.
Follow through on the agreement.

The UALMEC owes you NOTHING.

And please don't act like CAL was UALs savior.

Enough of the negotiating in public that BOTH of our MECs has apparently sunk to. See how well it has worked so far?!
Both MECs should be locked in a room until an agreement is reached. Give them food and water and bathroom facilities but no bed or shower. Then start a clock. In a week we would be beyond this issue.

 

[EWR_FO]

The UALMEC owes you NOTHING.

Trust me, we don't WANT anything. We are already having to expend resources to defend our scope section which is now under direct attack because of YOUR scope section. That is a fact.

If your MEC wants to play games and keep the furloughed guys out even longer, that's their business. They are f**king over a huge chunk of the seniority list in a futile attempt to advantage a tiny sliver- makes sense to me.

 

[whatitdoing?]

The UAL NC agreed to the 744 pay along with the 777 pay because it was a huge increase for all. The UAL MEC shot it down and is currently stalling the progress for a seniority grab. This is a fact and nothing more. Because of that, I can say our relationship with our UAL brothers and sisters is in a spiral. It's unfortunate that we have self serving people on both sides that will sacrifice the majority for their own benefits. We're talking about 11,000 pilots under substandard wages for a few hundred 744 drivers. The 744 will be gone in the next 5 years, so wtf is this all about then? A grab........don't kid yourself.

 

[whatitdoing?]

All or nothing BAND EVERYTHING or band nothing. Since there doesn't seem to be a push for banding everything.....

Keep the JCBA and SLI apart - period.
ALPA merer policy states JCBA and SLI remain seperate processes.
Follow through on the agreement.

The UALMEC owes you NOTHING.

And please don't act like CAL was UALs savior.
Enough of the negotiating in public that BOTH of our MECs has apparently sunk to. See how well it has worked so far?!
Both MECs should be locked in a room until an agreement is reached. Give them food and water and bathroom facilities but no bed or shower. Then start a clock. In a week we would be beyond this issue.

Come on SHREK, we don't have that attitude at CAL. I also don't believe CAL is UAL's savior, but in a way, it is. We're gonna bring things to mold that you've wanted for a long time. It's gonna be a well run airline, Tilton is gone, and we need to come together and work it out. The reason why you have 1500 pilots furloughed is because YOUR MEC gave up scope. The reason why you guys have terrible wages is because you had a gun to your head. We're trying to get this all worked out, but now everything is being stalled for a few pilots that consider the 744 the grand poobah. It wasn't about pay, it was about status and category for a seniority grab. Nothing more, nothing less. So ask your reps what's going on and watch the spin. I'm extremely frustrated because I have no money and I drive a car with 200,000 miles on it that's blowing smoke. I'm fed up and now your side is stalling it because they want MORE. They want more at the sacrifice of all the CAL pilots. WTF?? It's unfortunate..........

 

[Heavy Set]

Come on SHREK, we don't have that attitude at CAL. I also don't believe CAL is UAL's savior, but in a way, it is. We're gonna bring things to mold that you've wanted for a long time. It's gonna be a well run airline, Tilton is gone, and we need to come together and work it out. The reason why you have 1500 pilots furloughed is because YOUR MEC gave up scope. The reason why you guys have terrible wages is because you had a gun to your head. We're trying to get this all worked out, but now everything is being stalled for a few pilots that consider the 744 the grand poobah. It wasn't about pay, it was about status and category for a seniority grab. Nothing more, nothing less. So ask your reps what's going on and watch the spin. I'm extremely frustrated because I have no money and I drive a car with 200,000 miles on it that's blowing smoke. I'm fed up and now your side is stalling it because they want MORE. They want more at the sacrifice of all the CAL pilots. WTF?? It's unfortunate..........

You are correct SIR! United with Tilton was a sinking ship. What is up with these UAL pilots? They are sounding a lot like USAir East pilots.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Wait till they join USAPA. . .

 

[Shrek]

Trust me, we don't WANT anything. We are already having to expend resources to defend our scope section which is now under direct attack because of YOUR scope section. That is a fact.

If your MEC wants to play games and keep the furloughed guys out even longer, that's their business. They are f**king over a huge chunk of the seniority list in a futile attempt to advantage a tiny sliver- makes sense to me.

And we are expending resources to bring up your FAR min QOL sections of your contract - what is your point?

If you think it only involves the super senior - you would be wrong. You either band ALL flying together or NONE. Since I have not heard any news of total banding in terms of pay.......I say none period.

Believe me - we don't want any part of your MECs version of playing "games" either. Keep on beating your chest until you let the Transition Agreement die. We can compare what our seperate contracts will look like afterwards. It will be a disaster in the meantime - your choice.

Keep the JCBA and SLI seperate. Read it again because there are some on your MEC that thinks that it will be a part of SLI proceedings - it won't.

Keep me furloughed for another 8 years then - we need to get this JCBA done right.

I am fully behind the UALMEC on this issue.

 

[Shrek]

Come on SHREK, we don't have that attitude at CAL. I also don't believe CAL is UAL's savior, but in a way, it is. We're gonna bring things to mold that you've wanted for a long time. It's gonna be a well run airline, Tilton is gone, and we need to come together and work it out. The reason why you have 1500 pilots furloughed is because YOUR MEC gave up scope. The reason why you guys have terrible wages is because you had a gun to your head. We're trying to get this all worked out, but now everything is being stalled for a few pilots that consider the 744 the grand poobah. It wasn't about pay, it was about status and category for a seniority grab. Nothing more, nothing less. So ask your reps what's going on and watch the spin. I'm extremely frustrated because I have no money and I drive a car with 200,000 miles on it that's blowing smoke. I'm fed up and now your side is stalling it because they want MORE. They want more at the sacrifice of all the CAL pilots. WTF?? It's unfortunate..........

I was responding to Vref+10's post and his grand idea that our MEC chairman should appologize - horse....

I have been relatively quiet since the beggining and took a measured approach - my patience is running thin since the embarassing - in public - LEC and MEC letters from both sides accusing this and that. These should never be in writing and posted to the net.

We ARE talking to our reps and what we hear is very different than what is posted here by CAL pilots.

The 747 IS the grand poobah and it will be paid as such. We have historically had seperate payscales for aircraft and actually extrapollated all payrates from the top aircraft (747 ). Pay was tied to payload and gross weight and then flowed down from there. During bankruptcy we gave all that away and for many reasons that I am sure we both are aware of.

Well, it is time we get all that back and more. Most UAL pilots think that to have the 747/777 pay banded - it would be a concession, period.

It would be shot down in an instant........

Whatitdoing thank you for the serious reply - we will get through this eventually as a group.

 

[Shrek]

You are correct SIR! United with Tilton was a sinking ship. What is up with these UAL pilots? They are sounding a lot like USAir East pilots.

Miraculous that we made money right when it suits them huh?

Yeah UAL was definitely going down.........lol.

Kinda ironic that you would say that we are sounding like USAir East. The JCBA and SLI should be seperate - we all agreed to it. Now that we call BS because you are trying to tie JCBA and SLI arguments together a member of your MEC in the Denver meeting stood up and said he was willing to hold up the JCBA INDEFINITELY until the 747/777 pay was banded.

Who's sounding more like the East?

I am done on this subject - CAL pilots go ahead and bash away at what little unity we have - see where that gets us in a few years. I guess I will have to wait until another Magenta Line comes out.

 

[whatitdoing?]

I'm not bashing you SHREK or any other UAL pilot. We all need to move on. What's been going on at CAL/UAL ALPA is childish and immature. You're right, they shouldn't of aired their issue in the public. It should of been internal. I'm hoping you guys get back on the line soon. First rounds on me when all this bs works out. Cheers.......

 

[EWR_FO]

And we are expending resources to bring up your FAR min QOL sections of your contract - what is your point?

If you think the two are comparable, that's laughable. One of the reasons you can claim a QOL advantage, that I don't buy by the way, is because you essentially parked an entire fleet of narrowbodies. Show me one single issue, right now, that is being battled because of a "QOL" issue. I'll give you a hint... there are none. The battle over scope started with bringing your scope clause to the party. If we lose that battle, you are going to stay furloughed for a long time.

I ask again, if the UAL NC, the CAL NC, the UAL MEC Chairman, the CAL MEC Chairman, and the CAL MEC ALL thought it was acceptable....what happened? An attempted seniority grab happened that is directly impacting how long it is going to take guys like you to get back. If you're good with that...so be it.

 

[EWR_FO]

We have historically had seperate payscales for aircraft and actually extrapollated all payrates from the top aircraft (747 ). Pay was tied to payload and gross weight and then flowed down from there. During bankruptcy we gave all that away and for many reasons that I am sure we both are aware of.

Well, it is time we get all that back and more. Most UAL pilots think that to have the 747/777 pay banded - it would be a concession, period.

It would be shot down in an instant........

You realize, of course, that historically speaking the 747 has always generated the most revenue- not anymore. That is quite obvious when you see how many 747's are in the desert and almost all of them have been replaced by 777's. If you don't think that factored into the equation in the DL-NW merger, I have a bridge for sale.

 

[Shrek]

I'm not bashing you SHREK or any other UAL pilot. We all need to move on. What's been going on at CAL/UAL ALPA is childish and immature. You're right, they shouldn't of aired their issue in the public. It should of been internal. I'm hoping you guys get back on the line soon. First rounds on me when all this bs works out. Cheers.......

Thanks brother....it will taste pretty damned good