the unfathomable:regional crew attempted takeoff with one engine turning

[dojetdriver]

If this is flamebait, fine; call me a sucker.

If not, then the poster's reporting of it is not nearly the evil act it is being made out to be. While not a courageous gesture by any means, the reporting of such an event is very much in keeping within the system of checks and balances which any hazard prone endeavor such as aviation must employ.

If true, obviously the issue needs to be addressed. The crew should be brought in for interview, evaluation and appropriate training. Company procedures should be studied. The aircraft systems should be evaluated.

It's about saving lives, people.

Unfortunately, it's also about possibly ruining careers and further painting badly the reputation of us all.

But I submit to you all that perhaps your postings might read different if the story were about an errant scalpel welding surgeon or perhaps a bus driver who plowed into a van full of nuns while texting his girl.

All pilots are prone to errors. The only things which make us different are who, what, where and how.

I've been on enough jumpseats, major and regional, to know that we are all the same. Whether it's a major or regional is merely determined by timing, who you know, and determination. Some of the best pilots I've met can't make their trailer payments.

The majors have done a very good job of proving they are just as capable of hiring careless-error prone idiots. It's called "hiring human beings".

To argue otherwise is a waste of time. To blindly defend or attack the actions of this crew based solely on their level of employment is equally wasteful.

Hopefully the crew will ASAP this and something will be learned at the individual, company and industry levels.

That was a damn fine post chief.

I'll second, third, fourth my original stance. If you see somebody doing something unsafe, you go to pro stans about it. You DON'T call the feds, you DON'T call the media, PERIOD. Assuming the events are factual, they messed up and made a mistake. Thank God nobody was killed, and hopefully everybody learns from it. Because just like a professional pilot does their job, follows SOP's, etc in the cockpit, professionals also know how to handle matters OUTSIDE the cockit.

Now I'm gonna go out on a limb here. But not really, as I trust where I got my info from more than than the OP.

Since the OP wants to so openly crucify the pilots for a mistake that was made, I have a few questions;

Do the ATP/744 type rated pilots at your shop know how to fly a profile with the loss of thrust on one engine? Do they know that using rudder in said situation greatly improves climb performance? As well as ensures obstacle clearance when there's mountains around? As opposed to just getting lucky and BARELY missing the mountains, and potentially spreading a heavy widebody jet all over said mountains with a bunch of dead bodies. It usually works better to fly as you've been trained from intitial multi engine all the way through every PT/PC you ever take when you have a loss of power/thrust.

Did those pilots get fired? By that, I mean the ones in the pilots seats. The bunkie/relief guys couldn't do much but shout, just like the GPWS was doing.

Again, sort of going out on a limb here, but I don't think I'm too far off the mark as far as where you work. People aren't really as anonymous as they think they are.

 

[climbhappy]

no one by name has been openly crucified. In fact, my friend at the FSDO referred this to the DO at the carrier. I suspected they were drunk at first. how else would you forget to start an engine and accept "cleared for takeoff, line up and push 'em, i mean push un up?

da vinci, I don't belive in karma, only God.


I submit, this has never occurred in the USA at any airline ever.


they felt bad alright and they weren't just looking at me but two of us.


..point is, I could not pretend I was a professional after such a gross error which is maybe only a harbinger of something to come...rememeber poor marvin had many problems all the way through and no one threw the book at' em ...just "kept going to standards" and letting pilots police pilots..guess what?

a planeload died....so sorry if you don't like the brevity of this...

 

[ultrarunner]

Again, sort of going out on a limb here, but I don't think I'm too far off the mark as far as where you work. People aren't really as anonymous as they think they are.

Ok, this is really getting good. Give us some more scoop. And has the OP been ratted out yet?

 

[buscap]

no one by name has been openly crucified. In fact, my friend at the FSDO referred this to the DO at the carrier. I suspected they were drunk at first. how else would you forget to start an engine and accept "cleared for takeoff, line up and push 'em, i mean push un up?

da vinci, I don't belive in karma, only God.


I submit, this has never occurred in the USA at any airline ever.


they felt bad alright and they weren't just looking at me but two of us.


..point is, I could not pretend I was a professional after such a gross error which is maybe only a harbinger of something to come...rememeber poor marvin had many problems all the way through and no one threw the book at' em ...just "kept going to standards" and letting pilots police pilots..guess what?

a planeload died....so sorry if you don't like the brevity of this...

What brand of bourbon are you swilling?

If it's cheap, I might try it.

 

[dojetdriver]

Ok, this is really getting good. Give us some more scoop. And has the OP been ratted out yet?

About the 744 almost hitting a mountain because of substandard flying?

Or who the alleged pilot is on the flight?

On the latter, sorry. It'll be fun to watch said person dig a bigger hole for themselves.

 

[ackattacker]

I submit, this has never occurred in the USA at any airline ever.

Demonstrably untrue. It happens, matter of fact read the thread it just happened at Trans States. Not excusing it. However I'd submit it's not a more gross error than say forgetting to put the gear down or taking off with the wrong flap setting. Which also happens occasionally. We all know that getting certain things wrong in an airplane can kill you and other things you can catch and correct (or a warning system will catch it). Still shouldn't happen of course. But stupider things have been done and will continue to be done, and this is one of those things while it looks idiotic is relatively harmless. It's also worth examining the whole system, single engine taxi checklists etc. to make sure that crews aren't being set up to make this mistake.

Raise your hand if you've ever in your life gotten a gear warning you didn't expect. I'm not ashamed to admit I have. Got distracted at the crucial moment looking for close in traffic. I'm sure I would have caught it eventually without the warning but still a humbling sound. Point is it's easy to say you'd never do something like that until you do. Then it's harder to throw stones.

 

[nwa_contrails]

BTW, turn on engine #1 you stupid SOB

YGBSM. You preach of being a professional:


ACT. LIKE. ONE.

 

[hou757]

Genius,

If you really are a pilot you will be found out and I hope your name is posted all over the place. I hope you have enjoyed being able to jumpseat because your days doing that are probably limited. I sure would not want you on my jumpseat. I also hope (if this is true) the crew of that flight sues your butt for slander. You have handled this matter so pathetically. You have every right to be upset if this really happened but you are not going about this professionally. A simple conversation with the crew and pro standards within the union is how you handle this issue.

 

[booo]

This will come out ....in due time.... amazing the messenger gets shot at ..

There is a BIG difference between a messenger and a tattletale r, only one iis the maturity of the person.

This post is all about YOU. You ran to the schoolmarm (the FAA), then ran to the town gossip (the media), then ran here (the Holey Church of Aviation) to testify and asking the membership to sanctify you as a "True Aviation Hero", and have us all say "Oh, what Good Boy is He!"

No one employed you to transmit a message and your only message is "I'm better than those guys cause I've never made a mistake, nana nana na na".

they guys tried to kill me this morning

It's all about YOU. And you have chosen to be judge, jury and executioner in addition to town crier. They showed maturity, admitted that they had made an err and trusted that you would respect that, and that you would respct that confidence as a fellow professional.

they better not lie on that ASAP

Why would you be concerned that they would lie at this point? Perhaps because that would be your course of action?

realmanofgenius, you are both immature and unprofessional, and of low moral character. Perhaps you can help out the cause; turn in your ATP,

to weed out the marginal pilots immediately

 

[realmanofgenius]

I never brought this up to convince you critics of anything. It was an outrage. I am way over it. they'll do an ASAP and go on. I'm sure they willl never do that again. so yes, we have all learned. No one's name or carrier name has been denigrated..but the parties involved know who they are....it was serious and scared the $hit out of the pax in the back.. i am suprised some of them didn't demand to be taken back to the gate.

someone had to challenge them on it, otherwise they may never have learned from it (the purpose of the ASAP program) and said,"boy, we got by on that one" don't ever tell a soul" but there are souls somewhere saying (like those on comair and colgan3407) thank goodness he did...you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

 

[Lear70]

you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

Pro standards isn't a voluntary program. You contact pro standards about someone, pro standards seeks that person out and investigates, tries to resolve the problem, and if unresolvable, may contact the Chief Pilot's office and/or other parties if the issue is serious enough.

In this case, Pro Standards would likely have set them up to file their ASAP, broached the subject with the company anonymously to try to minimize the immediate anger and backlash from doing something so stupid, and get them into training in a way that minimized the fallout from additional discipline.

In short, Pro Standards would have been a good way to go with the understanding that you would "take it to the next level" in reporting it if pro standards didn't do a good enough job in "fixing" their apparent lack of SA. What Pro Standards might ALSO have been able to do is find out if this is a repeat offense for the CA. If more people went to Pro Standards, they'd have a log of everything this CA did (negative issues that got brought to the attention of the union - discipline, training issues, etc), and see if there was a developing trend, similar to the Colgan accident.

Pro Standards can be a pretty powerful committee that many people overlook...

 

[DrewBlows]

I never brought this up to convince you critics of anything. It was an outrage. I am way over it. they'll do an ASAP and go on. I'm sure they willl never do that again. so yes, we have all learned. No one's name or carrier name has been denigrated..but the parties involved know who they are....it was serious and scared the $hit out of the pax in the back.. i am suprised some of them didn't demand to be taken back to the gate.

someone had to challenge them on it, otherwise they may never have learned from it (the purpose of the ASAP program) and said,"boy, we got by on that one" don't ever tell a soul" but there are souls somewhere saying (like those on comair and colgan3407) thank goodness he did...you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

I'm going to address this like it's true, even though I'm still not convinced this isn't flame bait...

Isn't it possible they would have learned from it without being "challenged?" Many, if not most pilots are their own biggest critics. I suspect they were already beating themselves up over the incident before you jumped in to save the day.

I don't know if you meant to do it but you have exposed this crew to disciplinary action by contracting the FAA. ASAP isn't a "get out of jail" card. It serves a purpose but if it's not a "sole source" report, the company and/or the FAA could choose to take additional action outside of remedial training. Whether or not that happens is completely at the discretion of the FAA inspector or company DO.

You continue to compare this incident to the Comair and Colgan accidents. In those accidents the pilots made unrecoverable mistakes that endangered and ultimately ended the lives of every passenger. Forgetting to start an engine is embarrassing, but would require additional action to put anyone's life in danger.

Frankly, the ERJ is an ergonomic nightmare which set's pilots up to forget to start the engine. I submit that it's nearly as easy to forget to shut off the taxi light when stopped as it is to forget to start an engine.

1. The thrust levers don't lock out when an engine is off.

2. There are 21 switches that look and feel exactly like the engine start switches (though the engine switches are guarded). This tells me that Embraer doesn't think the engine start switches are as important as the heading bug and altitude pre-select knob which look and feel different.

3. The engines are mounted close together on the tail, so there isn't a lot of differential steering needed with one engine running until a lot of thrust is applied.

4. The takeoff config warning does not check that both engines are running.

5. I've never flown the ERJ, but if it's anything like the E170 there is no CAS information that would indicate an engine is not running. Good technique tells you to check the engine instruments, but the checklist (ours anyway) directs you to check the EICAS.

This was a small mistake and nothing more, certainly not something to (literally) alert the media over.

 

[Mr Hat]

Genius,

If you really are a pilot you will be found out and I hope your name is posted all over the place. I hope you have enjoyed being able to jumpseat because your days doing that are probably limited. I sure would not want you on my jumpseat. I also hope (if this is true) the crew of that flight sues your butt for slander. You have handled this matter so pathetically. You have every right to be upset if this really happened but you are not going about this professionally. A simple conversation with the crew and pro standards within the union is how you handle this issue.

You got that right....all I need is a name. I don't want CNN calling me if I happen to make a mistake or something is percieved to be a mistake from the back.

 

[Mr Hat]

I never brought this up to convince you critics of anything. It was an outrage. I am way over it. they'll do an ASAP and go on. I'm sure they willl never do that again. so yes, we have all learned. No one's name or carrier name has been denigrated..but the parties involved know who they are....it was serious and scared the $hit out of the pax in the back.. i am suprised some of them didn't demand to be taken back to the gate.

someone had to challenge them on it, otherwise they may never have learned from it (the purpose of the ASAP program) and said,"boy, we got by on that one" don't ever tell a soul" but there are souls somewhere saying (like those on comair and colgan3407) thank goodness he did...you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

Yeah....we live in the 2000's....there's this thing called FOQA. Then there's that whole "gotta submit an ASAP for an aborted T/O" thing.....and the fact that the tower watched them abort and may follow up on why they aborted. They almost certainly would have gotten away, free to screw up another day!!! HAHAHAHAH!!

Look dude....I'm not thrilled with your going to the FAA but thats not even the problem since a mistake like this will almost certainly end up involving them ANYWAY. As soon as they submit that ASAP for the aborted TO, the feds know about it.
But the media? How many crashes have you watched on TV where the media had it totally wrong? They don't care about saving lives or safety.....they only care about scaring the hell out of everyone in the name of ratings. They are the scum of the earth....and you gave them ammo that may scare one of YOUR future passengers into driving instead on their next trip. Then United loses money, not the regional.....EVEN if the flight was supposed to be operated by one of the regionals.
What the pilots of your free flight did was wrong....a horrible gross error.....YOUR error in contacting CNN was no less gross or horrible. The airlines don't need this bad press. Thanks for taking us back a notch.

 

[skyguy40]

I am not sure if this guy's aim was to cause harm to the crew ( This is what I think)and that's it. Or was there more to it (changing rules for that greater good). I am ok with fixing problems, I just think he went about it all wrong. Sweeping it under the rug wont fix many things and screaming the sky is falling may not fix many things either as the focus will be lost. I flew the ERJ many years ago, it is posible to have one engine running and have the T/O config say: take off ok. I've done it to see if it would let you t/o with just one engine running. It will! Maybe a good fix is to have that changed. Yes its engineering but I think it could be done.
All I'm saying is, how does one go about changing the problems that we are faced with each week? EX: I just finished a trip on day six and my duty time was around 15 hours when I was back in base. Not much has changed, we still operate by the same old rules.