the unfathomable:regional crew attempted takeoff with one engine turning

[Lear70]

you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

Pro standards isn't a voluntary program. You contact pro standards about someone, pro standards seeks that person out and investigates, tries to resolve the problem, and if unresolvable, may contact the Chief Pilot's office and/or other parties if the issue is serious enough.

In this case, Pro Standards would likely have set them up to file their ASAP, broached the subject with the company anonymously to try to minimize the immediate anger and backlash from doing something so stupid, and get them into training in a way that minimized the fallout from additional discipline.

In short, Pro Standards would have been a good way to go with the understanding that you would "take it to the next level" in reporting it if pro standards didn't do a good enough job in "fixing" their apparent lack of SA. What Pro Standards might ALSO have been able to do is find out if this is a repeat offense for the CA. If more people went to Pro Standards, they'd have a log of everything this CA did (negative issues that got brought to the attention of the union - discipline, training issues, etc), and see if there was a developing trend, similar to the Colgan accident.

Pro Standards can be a pretty powerful committee that many people overlook...

 

[DrewBlows]

I never brought this up to convince you critics of anything. It was an outrage. I am way over it. they'll do an ASAP and go on. I'm sure they willl never do that again. so yes, we have all learned. No one's name or carrier name has been denigrated..but the parties involved know who they are....it was serious and scared the $hit out of the pax in the back.. i am suprised some of them didn't demand to be taken back to the gate.

someone had to challenge them on it, otherwise they may never have learned from it (the purpose of the ASAP program) and said,"boy, we got by on that one" don't ever tell a soul" but there are souls somewhere saying (like those on comair and colgan3407) thank goodness he did...you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

I'm going to address this like it's true, even though I'm still not convinced this isn't flame bait...

Isn't it possible they would have learned from it without being "challenged?" Many, if not most pilots are their own biggest critics. I suspect they were already beating themselves up over the incident before you jumped in to save the day.

I don't know if you meant to do it but you have exposed this crew to disciplinary action by contracting the FAA. ASAP isn't a "get out of jail" card. It serves a purpose but if it's not a "sole source" report, the company and/or the FAA could choose to take additional action outside of remedial training. Whether or not that happens is completely at the discretion of the FAA inspector or company DO.

You continue to compare this incident to the Comair and Colgan accidents. In those accidents the pilots made unrecoverable mistakes that endangered and ultimately ended the lives of every passenger. Forgetting to start an engine is embarrassing, but would require additional action to put anyone's life in danger.

Frankly, the ERJ is an ergonomic nightmare which set's pilots up to forget to start the engine. I submit that it's nearly as easy to forget to shut off the taxi light when stopped as it is to forget to start an engine.

1. The thrust levers don't lock out when an engine is off.

2. There are 21 switches that look and feel exactly like the engine start switches (though the engine switches are guarded). This tells me that Embraer doesn't think the engine start switches are as important as the heading bug and altitude pre-select knob which look and feel different.

3. The engines are mounted close together on the tail, so there isn't a lot of differential steering needed with one engine running until a lot of thrust is applied.

4. The takeoff config warning does not check that both engines are running.

5. I've never flown the ERJ, but if it's anything like the E170 there is no CAS information that would indicate an engine is not running. Good technique tells you to check the engine instruments, but the checklist (ours anyway) directs you to check the EICAS.

This was a small mistake and nothing more, certainly not something to (literally) alert the media over.

 

[Mr Hat]

Genius,

If you really are a pilot you will be found out and I hope your name is posted all over the place. I hope you have enjoyed being able to jumpseat because your days doing that are probably limited. I sure would not want you on my jumpseat. I also hope (if this is true) the crew of that flight sues your butt for slander. You have handled this matter so pathetically. You have every right to be upset if this really happened but you are not going about this professionally. A simple conversation with the crew and pro standards within the union is how you handle this issue.

You got that right....all I need is a name. I don't want CNN calling me if I happen to make a mistake or something is percieved to be a mistake from the back.

 

[Mr Hat]

I never brought this up to convince you critics of anything. It was an outrage. I am way over it. they'll do an ASAP and go on. I'm sure they willl never do that again. so yes, we have all learned. No one's name or carrier name has been denigrated..but the parties involved know who they are....it was serious and scared the $hit out of the pax in the back.. i am suprised some of them didn't demand to be taken back to the gate.

someone had to challenge them on it, otherwise they may never have learned from it (the purpose of the ASAP program) and said,"boy, we got by on that one" don't ever tell a soul" but there are souls somewhere saying (like those on comair and colgan3407) thank goodness he did...you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

Yeah....we live in the 2000's....there's this thing called FOQA. Then there's that whole "gotta submit an ASAP for an aborted T/O" thing.....and the fact that the tower watched them abort and may follow up on why they aborted. They almost certainly would have gotten away, free to screw up another day!!! HAHAHAHAH!!

Look dude....I'm not thrilled with your going to the FAA but thats not even the problem since a mistake like this will almost certainly end up involving them ANYWAY. As soon as they submit that ASAP for the aborted TO, the feds know about it.
But the media? How many crashes have you watched on TV where the media had it totally wrong? They don't care about saving lives or safety.....they only care about scaring the hell out of everyone in the name of ratings. They are the scum of the earth....and you gave them ammo that may scare one of YOUR future passengers into driving instead on their next trip. Then United loses money, not the regional.....EVEN if the flight was supposed to be operated by one of the regionals.
What the pilots of your free flight did was wrong....a horrible gross error.....YOUR error in contacting CNN was no less gross or horrible. The airlines don't need this bad press. Thanks for taking us back a notch.

 

[skyguy40]

I am not sure if this guy's aim was to cause harm to the crew ( This is what I think)and that's it. Or was there more to it (changing rules for that greater good). I am ok with fixing problems, I just think he went about it all wrong. Sweeping it under the rug wont fix many things and screaming the sky is falling may not fix many things either as the focus will be lost. I flew the ERJ many years ago, it is posible to have one engine running and have the T/O config say: take off ok. I've done it to see if it would let you t/o with just one engine running. It will! Maybe a good fix is to have that changed. Yes its engineering but I think it could be done.
All I'm saying is, how does one go about changing the problems that we are faced with each week? EX: I just finished a trip on day six and my duty time was around 15 hours when I was back in base. Not much has changed, we still operate by the same old rules.

 

[hou757]

I never brought this up to convince you critics of anything. It was an outrage. I am way over it. they'll do an ASAP and go on. I'm sure they willl never do that again. so yes, we have all learned. No one's name or carrier name has been denigrated..but the parties involved know who they are....it was serious and scared the $hit out of the pax in the back.. i am suprised some of them didn't demand to be taken back to the gate.

someone had to challenge them on it, otherwise they may never have learned from it (the purpose of the ASAP program) and said,"boy, we got by on that one" don't ever tell a soul" but there are souls somewhere saying (like those on comair and colgan3407) thank goodness he did...you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

I've yet to hear one person support what you did on this thread. Everyone on here seems to be your critic. YOU made a mistake contacting the media about this. I hope you man up to it and not communicate any facts from this point on to the press. Allow the union and company involved along with probably the FAA by now to handle this situation.

 

[CX880]

He should have done what he did. Think of the children in row 3.

 

[say again]

I never brought this up to convince you critics of anything. It was an outrage. I am way over it. they'll do an ASAP and go on. I'm sure they willl never do that again. so yes, we have all learned. No one's name or carrier name has been denigrated..but the parties involved know who they are....it was serious and scared the $hit out of the pax in the back.. i am suprised some of them didn't demand to be taken back to the gate.

someone had to challenge them on it, otherwise they may never have learned from it (the purpose of the ASAP program) and said,"boy, we got by on that one" don't ever tell a soul" but there are souls somewhere saying (like those on comair and colgan3407) thank goodness he did...you talk about pro standards, guess what, show me a crew who will volunteer to go before their own, (yeah right) on this issue or similar.

over and out...

This proves the idiot you are.

 

[SLUF4]

If you wanted to help them you should have done so privately and not gone to the feds and the media. What good will that do?

 

[Dan Roman]

If you wanted to help them you should have done so privately and not gone to the feds and the media. What good will that do?

It proves he is more worried about getting himself as much attention as he can rather than worried about correcting and learning from someones mistake. It's a sickness in our society that has become much worse thanks to 24 hour cable and "reality" TV.

 

[COOPERVANE]

It proves he is more worried about getting himself as much attention as he can rather than worried about correcting and learning from someones mistake. It's a sickness in our society that has become much worse thanks to 24 hour cable and "reality" TV.

I have thought this for the last several years.

We now live in a world that not only does not honor honesty and integrity, but rewards the opposite. (Lindsey Lohan, Kardashian, Alexis Neiers) Everyone is worried about their 15 minutes.

Being "dissed" seems to be the primary concern instread.

 

[Dan Roman]

I have thought this for the last several years.

We now live in a world that not only does not honor honesty and integrity, but rewards the opposite. (Lindsey Lohan, Kardashian, Alexis Neiers) Everyone is worried about their 15 minutes.

Being "dissed" seems to be the primary concern instread.

Sad but true, look at Glen Beck, even though he is proven to be dishonest, is an entertainer that preys on peoples fears and emotions to the detriment of honest and insightful discourse, he has a huge following that believe his every word. It happens on the left too, we have morphed into a country that the quality of the insult is more important than the quality of the argument.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Ah, this is what I missed about the FI regional section.

$10 says neither pilot has ever flown the ERJ

$25 more says their anger and outrage are due to a life of failed endeavors...now only looking to crucify their own.

Oh look...my popcorn is done...brb.

 

[LearCrj]

True or not. The majors are not immune to this stupidity. Delta thinks taxiway mike in ATL is a runway and Northwest can't navigate. They have proven this on more than one occasion here in the US as well in Europe where they landed in the wrong country. So if you are a legacy pilot who thinks you are superior to me, GFY!

 

[Long Time Gone]

I've yet to hear one person support what you did on this thread. Everyone on here seems to be your critic. YOU made a mistake contacting the media about this. I hope you man up to it and not communicate any facts from this point on to the press. Allow the union and company involved along with probably the FAA by now to handle this situation.

You obviously haven't read the entire thread. You may want to do that before making a remark the next time.

 

[hou757]

You obviously haven't read the entire thread. You may want to do that before making a remark the next time.

Oh but I have read the entire thread. I see several posts agreeing that a terrible mistake was possibly made but I see none that agree with this guy calling the press and making this into a media circus.(except cx880 but that was after I posted the remark) I think you need to read the posts a little more careful!

 

[DrewBlows]

He should have done what he did. Think of the children in row 3.

What is there to think about? The worst possible outcome actually occurred and the only ramification was a slightly longer taxi in order to start the second engine.

No one actually attempted a single engine takeoff, and as easy as it is to forget to start the engine, it's nearly impossible to even attempt a takeoff since the LO OIL PRESS EICAS message (and probably a few others) as soon as the thrust lever is moved forward. The loss of directional control might also be an indication that something isn't right. This was about one step above a non-event. Screw-up, ASAP, additional training, done.

 

[SennaP1]

. Screw-up, ASAP, additional training, done.

What additional training can prevent this from happening again, just wondering what a training department can do..

Couple other things, is this normal ops for this carrier (still don't know who) to single engine taxi? I know some carriers do not.

Did they have a delay going to ORD? How much fuel are you really saving leaving GSO (can't imagine there are long taxi delays there) on 1-engine versus 2?

I can see this happening to other crews and have heard ( on the line ) this happening to crews ( E145 operators) before the news of the TSA145 and this unknown crew.

Bad mistake, could of happened to any pilot/crew.

Lets hope they do just get this additional training.

 

[clr4theapch]

Nice to know

This mod has always been a ******************************. Nothing has changed. My opinion. Let's see what he does with it.

After reading every post on this thread, I am sure glad to know that I must rank higher as a MOD than Lear70.. whew... and all this time I thought I was the most hated...

As to this thread.. dare I interject?? ah what the hell.. JMO, I agree with everyone's sentiment here about the media.. that action does nothing but bring the worse possible reactions by the public, the FAA and does nothing but boost the Tv ratings.. If I were this guy, I would have asked my self "how would I want to be treated" if I were the PIC that just screwed the pooch?? Would I contact the FAA, Nah, the media, Hell no, pro standards and the company CP? maybe..

The last thing this industry needs is more bad and inaccurate press or the congress getting into our business.. The ASAP reports are there for a reason, we are all human... learn and live.. help out your fellow man.. cume-by-ya

The interesting thing that no one has brought up is the news organization that this guy reported this too. They would have to verify their source for the story or inquiry, one best be careful when contacting the media, they know who you are and are prone to divuldge who the source was.. this could come back and be a big problem for that source.. Ya know what I mean...

Anyway, gald I am not considered the worse #@%^&%$#'er here moderating the world largest aviation forum.. And yea, we have opinions as mods, we just usually keep it to ourself for self preservation with you guys/gals..

 

[Lear70]

You're not the "MOST" hated, they just hide it better around me because I know everyone on the hiring committees at most airlines after doing airline interviews for many years...

(I'm KIDDING folks... lighten up).