TWA v. ALPA Suit Going To Trial

[Crzipilot]

Solve the problems the PCL way....PFT.....yup....true alpa supporter. Anything he can do to Advance HIS career.....

 

[Raoul Duke]

Well since ALPA has already lost one suit brough by pilots this year (United) it will be interesting to see how this plays out. If memory serves me correct ALPA paid 44M in the last lawsuit. Anyone have any idea how much cash/assets they claim?

 

[AA717driver]

Anyone have any idea how much cash/assets they claim?

The big question is 'how much in assets did they move offshore?'. Several years ago (probably before the suit was filed) there was a transfer of cash.

Maybe the ALPA counsel will be as concerned about hiding assets as they were about obstruction of justice and subornation of perjury.

"Everybody on the whole cell block was dancin' to the Jailhouse Rock!"

TC

 

[macdu]

Did not the TWA MEC agree to the conditions?

They agreed to what they thought were the facts at the time. When in reality they(we) were being "played" for suckers.

 

[FLYLOW22]

All I know is that the STL airport was better off with BK TWA serving it as a hub with 60 gates and Int'l service than with AA and 8 gates connecting to it's other hubs in ORD, JFK (via Eagle), LAX, MIA, etc.

What a waste that airport has become. Failed expectations indeed.

In 2001, Don Carty described the STL as the "Crown Jewel" of the merger. What a putz.




Good thing JetBlue is coming in.

 

[TWA Dude]

Did not the TWA MEC agree to the conditions?

If you'll recall the bankruptcy judge told the TWA MEC we had to either give up our right to the Allegheny-Mohawk protections or he would abdicate our entire contract. He was wrong but we didnt't know that at the time. We thought our ALPA attorney, Roland Wilder, worked for us but it turned out he followed orders from Duane Woerth. He advised us to give up the protections.
So yes, we did agree to it but only with intentionally poor legal advice.

So what would've been so bad about letting an arbitrator decide the AA-TWA seniority integration? Afraid of something? I wasn't.

 

[stlflyguy]

Wrong. Read the link in this thread. Leave it at that.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

The TWA guys back then and the former TWA guys now are basically incapable understanding the reality of dealing with AMR (not APA).

Here is my favorite quote:

"Here's to hoping TWA guys win! It should have been a relative seniority integration. You can't say any airline is going to go out of business until they actually do. "

At the time of the buy out, most TWA guys were chanting the relative seniority song. What they failed completely to understand was they weren't the first carrrier AA had bought, and the AA pilots knew, or at least predicted 99% accuracy, was that the TWA system was going to be decimated.

If the APA pilots hadn't experienced the AirCal integration. It's highly likely the TWA pilots would have been gotten relative seniority. They didn't because with AirCal, and with Reno later, AA eliminated nearly all of that mainline flying or gave it to Eagle.

TWA was going to molded to fit AMR. The first to go was Riyadh, Cairo, Tel Aviv. The rest was going to go, including places like STL-London. TWA also had a major short haul operation of which the AA pilots lost years earlier to Eagle. STL had 5 flights a day to places like Moline, BNA, DSM, SGF ect. All that flying was going "bye bye", 100% gauranteed, yet the TWA guys walked into the AA jail cell oblivious to what was coming. "Give us relative seniority" they said.

APA formed an agreement that made STL a little TWA "ghetto", and if AA hadn't gone much farther in cutting more than even APA expected, it would have been a nice little protected status. Even after 9/11, if STL still had a couple of hundred flights a day, the TWA FO's would have upgraded faster than nAAtive FO's due to the STL retirement protections.

Little remains of the TWA route system. STL has dropped down to less than 80 flights a day. They have 430 original TWA Captains based there when it really only would support a 75 pilot AA crewbase. What do these guys do? They fly out of STL and into the original AA system. typical for the last 5 years, the typical AA bidsheet out of STL will be 75 hours, of which 15 hours or less flys old TWA flying. One might say "but AA guys fly through STL!", B.S., I also checked that, and AA guys fly into STL less than before the buyout. DFW-TUL/TUS/SAN/MIA/SEA, MIA-DEN/BOS/LAX/ORD ect, ect was all AA flying now flown by TWA guys.

End result is the TWA flying is gone, and the TWA guys are bitter that they couldn't slide right into an AA left flying DFW-ABQ after their STL-DSM flight disappeared. Many guys did and killed the AA narrowbody updgrades and is a factor why it's been at the 20 year point for awhile.

Some guys say, wait until it happens to me. If AA gets bought and I'm treated the same as a TWA guys, I will consider myself the luckiest guy in the world seniority speaking (business skill of the buyer is another story).

 

[FNG320]

I am no expert in this either but from what Ive heard, your statement is only a small part of the equation. The problem reportedly is ALPA failed to represent TWA in a fair manner. ALPA, TWAs bargaining agent, was courting APA to join ALPA at the same time they were supposed to be acting on behalf of TWA. They failed to disclose their dealings with APA and there might be some stinky garbage in terms of backroom deals that shafted the TWA guys. Not necessarily one of ALPAs bright spots.

The real problem with what you have above is that it is missing important info.

ALPA had been trying to get APA to rejoin ALPA, but that has ended and been put to bed well before the buyout of TWA by American.

APA advised the TWA MEC that if they did not waive their merger protection, APA would not let the deal grow thru (there merger protection have the APA the ability to kill the deal).

The TWA MEC was advised by ALPA, independant legal counsel, AA laywers, TWA lawyers, inndependant financial advisors in the BK process, and the court that failure to waive their merger protection would kill the merger as planned and all TWA employees would be terminated with the liquidation.

The TWA pilot union rules (not ALPA rules) allowed the MEC to approve such waivers without the vote of the pilot group.

The TWA MEC voted to waive thier CBA merger protection to preseves as many jobs as possible. Which resulted in all TWA pilots being integreated into the AA seniorility list It was not very fair, but it was not a total staple either.

The bottom line is that the TWA MEC received valid and appropriate advise on the status of the merger and waiving of thier merger protection from all parties. They made the best decision they could have. The problem is that they want some one to pay for thier bad/good decision. Had they not waived the merger protection, they would have all lost thier jobs, and AA would most likely have gotten TWA's assets anyway. The waiver of thier merger protection preserved thier jobs (for a while), but the events of the industry and 9/11 caused former TWA pilots to bear the brunt of the downsizing at AA.

I feel that even if it goes to court, the former TWA pilost will lose. Then, even if ALPA loses, the cost of any settlement will be just a few $$$ to each pilot and ALPA's insurance will pay for that.

Just my opinion.......

FNG

 

[Draginass]

So what would've been so bad about letting an arbitrator decide the AA-TWA seniority integration? Afraid of something? I wasn't.

I'm not surprised you weren't afraid of an arbitration. Considering that ALPA had ZERO leverage (for good reason BTW), it's obvious that anything an arbitrator would decide would be better than what was the logical and justified outcome, given AA's history of acquiring other airlines.

Yes, we were afraid of something. Afraid that the usual AA practice of buying an airline, then shutting it down and diluting our seniority system was going to come true . . . yet again.

And it did, as easily predicted.

At the time I thought the integration was fair. However now, it's clear to me that TWA should have been stapled altogether considering that any size and value added to AA was gone years ago.

BTW, my sympathies for getting caught in two botched acquisitions/mergers. That's more than anyone one man should have to endure.

 

[Raoul Duke]

The gory details can be found here: http://www.twapilot.org/TWA vs. ALPA Documents/Lee Seham Report.pdf

I got to the first page, saw who authored it and am now convinced that the TWA pilots are screwed.

 

[Draginass]

Took a quick scan of about half of it. Two observations: Quoting Bob Kudwa as an expert on anything is laughable. Secondly, the author falsely states that the APA though that the TWA deal would result in greatly increased growth. I was there at the time and the almost universal opinion among AA pilots was that it was a BAD deal and that TWA would be dismantled and we'd be left with TWA metal and routes GONE, and TWA pilots diluting the AA seniority list.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm not surprised you weren't afraid of an arbitration. Considering that ALPA had ZERO leverage (for good reason BTW), it's obvious that anything an arbitrator would decide would be better than what was the logical and justified outcome, given AA's history of acquiring other airlines.

I don't understand your logic. Could you please clarify exactly why you think an arbitrator would've ruled "better than what was the logical and justified outcome"?

Yes, we were afraid of something. Afraid that the usual AA practice of buying an airline, then shutting it down and diluting our seniority system was going to come true . . . yet again.

That's not logical and I'll explain. We all know AA management displays questionable juddgment but do you really think they bought previous airlines with the intent of shrinking to pre-purchase size in short order? Of course not. The circumstances that existed when AA made its decision obviously changed.

You're free to argue the TWA purchase was ill-advised but at the time there were logical reasons why AA did it. 9/11 changed that and I'm guessing you didn't predict 9/11. Therefore, you could not have anticipated that the AA would shrink drastically so shortly after the TWA purchase. It's very disingenuous for you to suggest you knew as much.

BTW, my sympathies for getting caught in two botched acquisitions/mergers. That's more than anyone one man should have to endure.

I want your sympathy like I want my hemorrhoid to flair up. You and the USAir Easties are two peas in a pod: self-serving, self-entitled, and self-righteous.

 

[Neubyfly]

Eh, you don't have to. You'll learn the hard way that frivolous lawsuits are not the way to solve your problems, just like the RJDC wankers did.

No but buying a job at Gulfstream is.

 

[DIAMONDDD]

No but buying a job at Gulfstream is.

But he said he was sorry....

 

[C-150ETOPS]

"That's not logical and I'll explain. We all know AA management displays questionable juddgment but do you really think they bought previous airlines with the intent of shrinking to pre-purchase size in short order? Of course not. The circumstances that existed when AA made its decision obviously changed."

You'll "explain" from what view, someone who hadn't dealt with AMR? You dealt with Icahn, same scum, different beasts.

The TWA system was going to get whacked. the economy was already in the sheeter with crappy loads and yields the summer of 2001.

The TWA system had a significcant amount of flying that AA detested. Riyadh, are you kidding? STL to Europe, with DFW and ORD Europe flights an hour away, that flying was going away. Same goes for STL- Hawaii, gone to because of ORD/DFW. The Caribbean SJU "Hub". That was just some lunch money pilfered from the AA's Caribbean "lake". That flying was gone except for PUJ. The STL short haul flying I covered in my previous post was also gone. Mainline jets from the STL Hub to SGF/DSM/MLI/FAR/MKE/OMA? We AA pilots lost that flying top Eagle 8 years before. It sucks, but did you guys really think the AA pilots should give you a relative seniority merge based on 2001 baseline to places like those?

The APA deal protected the STL TWA guys based on an educated guess as to what AMR would do with TWA. If they had kept the flying APa guessed they would, upgrades due to the senior TWA guys retiring would have let protected TWA FO's upgrade earlier than the AA guys based on DOH. It's too bad that AA cut STL and the TWA system even more than APA thought they would.

 

[stlflyguy]

Eh, you don't have to. You'll learn the hard way that frivolous lawsuits are not the way to solve your problems, just like the RJDC wankers did.

Hey, what's this rumor that AirTran pilots negotiated with ALPA prior to joining that they not be assessed for anything that might come out of this suit?

Is there any truth in that?

 

[PCL_128]

Hey, what's this rumor that AirTran pilots negotiated with ALPA prior to joining that they not be assessed for anything that might come out of this suit?

Is there any truth in that?

It's not specific to the Bensel litigation, but yes, our merger agreement protects us from having to pay any assessments for litigation filed prior to our merger.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I guarantee you if there is ever a big judgment rendered against ALPA that will be the day it ceases to exist. For instance if ALPA were to lose this TWA suit (which I don't think will happen) does anyone really think that Delta or United pilots will pay a dime in assessments? Not a chance in hell. They will just decertify ALPA and it will evaporate overnight.

 

[Draginass]

You and the USAir Easties are two peas in a pod: self-serving, self-entitled, and self-righteous.

That applies a lot more to TWA pilots than AA. TWA pilots would be happy to throw AA pilots away and take their flying, since almost NOTHING of TWA flying still exists. . . .LIKE EASILY PREDICTED BY THE APA. Further, TWA pilots agreed to the seniority list, only now THEY want a "Do-Over", just like US Air pilots. YOU'RE the one that would like to take AA pilots' jobs that you feel somehow "entitled" to even though you took a job with TWA, a long-sick and failed airline. I never even considered TWA when airline job shopping because it was a chronically sick company.

And as far as self-righteous goes, well . . . read your own posts.