Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

CastofThousands

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
I finally figured out who B19 is.

He is the manager that decided to start following "On Time" statistics for Private Jets. Anyone that knows this business well knows that we go when the passengers show up. Its not an airline. We don't have a hard set in stone departure time. Thats exactly why people use a personal/corporate jet. They want to go when they want to go.
 
imacdog said:
Actually B hasn't been correct. He posts factual errors about the NJA contract and will not admit that he was incorrect. His reasoning that the union contract at NJA was responsible for furloughs has been disproven many times. He originally said that NJA would furlough more people in terms of % than the other companys, then later changed his "prediction" to total number of pilots. When I called him out on that, no response. Go figure.
Click to expand...

I have been spot in in everything I've stated would happen. NJ is still cutting back with massive losses last year that would have placed any other company out of business had it not been for the backing of B-H. The non union fracs keep chugging along and adjusting to the economy.

Those pilots and families throughout NJ are being tortured as a result of that contract. If it was such a great contract, why wasn't it matched at FLOPS? Because if FAILED.
 
rajflyboy said:
So Mr smarty pants. Explain this to me. How is it the pilot unions fault for the wages obtained in the 2005 contract? The COMPANY had to also agree to this. What part of THE COMPANY HAD TO AGREE do you have such a hard time understanding?
Click to expand...

It's the unions fault for not adjusting the contract as the economy changes. Unions are notorious for pushing a fixed cost contract to the brink of bankruptcy before the contract is opened to adjust to the proper downsizing of the company to match the economy. How many non-union jobs were shed before the union jobs were? The entire company is placed into turmoil, not just the pilot's union. If not for B-H, you'd all be out of work right now.

It IS the unions fault because the company is unable to adjust for the rapid changed within the business model demanded by the economy.
 
gunfyter said:
4 Sevens,

I am sorry. 19 is not correct. He is a misrepresenter of the facts:
19 declared certain things would occur because of the presence of Unions. This is eminently not the case.

Its like the democrats declaring disaster would strike because of George Bush and when Katrina hit saying ... " See we told you!"


Now when a large portion of your customers work in the NY financial industry which gets hit with a financial storm ... will those people let their homes go into foreclosure ... it will they return their Jets to a company that has a return policy similar to the Policy COSTCO has when I return an consumer electronics device?

Many of our passengers have suffered financial loss and therefore returned their planes. When this happens there is less demand for pilots. This is not related in any way shape or form to whether these pilots are union or non-union.

B-19 has never demonstrated how the union has anything to do with the need for reduction in force.
Click to expand...

It makes a huge difference if your work force has a pilot to plane ratio that is head and shoulders above the rest of the industry. That is driven solely by the work rules within the contract, nothing else. The company hired more pilots than were needed because they had to, it wasn't an option. No company hires based on projected sales, they hire based on what it takes to operate the current fleet and that is based on the work rules. That is pure union... nothing more.
 
Let the whining begin.

gret said:
Does it really matter?

I don't agree with everything he posts, but he does at least think about things before he puts it on the board.

It seems that people like attacking him more than discussing pertinent topics.

The message board are normally very quiet until he post a message.
Click to expand...

For almost 4 years I've been attacked no matter what facts I place on the table. Industry Leading contracts always fail because they set unrealistic expectations while the economy is enjoying "good times" just like what has happened at NJ now. The last answer to this question will be how low will it go?

Is it possible that the new FLOPS contract could be the new industry standard? Remains to be seen... but the NJ contract seems to be doomed with the ongoing furloughs and reductions in staff.

They always prefer to attack.. just like the school yard bully. That is what they always do, the difference being I'm going to stay on point and continue to show how the unions have a negative effect on the industry.

Wait until the pilots at FLOPS discover that all the grey area missed in the FLOPS contract will be exploited by the company. They will blame the company and not the union negotiators. Let the whining begin.
 
imacdog said:
Sure, B. Just keep telling yourself that. There, there. It's alright.
Click to expand...

It's historical that it happens. If you have never had to staff for pilots, you haven't a clue as to what the impact is of a minor change to the contract.
 
7777 said:
Agreed.

B-19 has been kicking their pompous union loving asses all over this board for quite some time. It has been quite impressive, actually. When you consider it is ONE against 20 to 30 or so regulars.

They have lost their argument with him and the furloughs (just heard from a NetJet pilot another is on the way) prove it. If B-19 continues on his streak, they will be opening the contract and that will be the final stake in their union loving hearts.

How bout them Unions! Surrender your silly argument....B-19 won! Get over it!
Click to expand...


7777, the fat lady hasn't sung quite yet, but if history is accurate and repeats itself like I've been saying for years, what you say above is spot on.

I can't wait to see the FLOPS pilots begin the predicted whining about comparing the NJ contract and the FLOPS contract. That will provide great entertainment for years to come. Funny how the non-union fracs just keep chugging along, eh?

Thank you as always for your support.
 
B19 Flyer said:
It's the unions fault for not adjusting the contract as the economy changes. Unions are notorious for pushing a fixed cost contract to the brink of bankruptcy before the contract is opened to adjust to the proper downsizing of the company to match the economy. How many non-union jobs were shed before the union jobs were? The entire company is placed into turmoil, not just the pilot's union. If not for B-H, you'd all be out of work right now.

It IS the unions fault because the company is unable to adjust for the rapid changed within the business model demanded by the economy.
Click to expand...


Here once again you proved the facts you post are incorrect. More Union jobs were lost than Non Union jobs.
 
B19 = 7777
 
fischman said:
B19 = 7777
Click to expand...

Ass Hat:

A general term for someone who carries on with such stupidity that they might as well wear their ass as a hat.

I have been in the Army the last 24 years. Sorry to ruin your theory.

Keep walking towards the light fischman, B-19 will get you out.
 
Last edited:
7777 said:
Ass Hat:

A general term for someone who carries on with such stupidity that they might as well wear their ass as a hat.

I have been in the Army the last 24 years. Sorry to ruin your theory.

Keep walking towards the light fischman, B-19 will get you out.
Click to expand...



What light is that?

The work 16 hours a day and get paid 45 thousand a year to be the captain of a corporate jet light ??

No thanks. I'd rather be a Walmart Manager.
 
B19 Flyer said:
7777, the fat lady hasn't sung quite yet, but if history is accurate and repeats itself like I've been saying for years, what you say above is spot on.

I can't wait to see the FLOPS pilots begin the predicted whining about comparing the NJ contract and the FLOPS contract. That will provide great entertainment for years to come. Funny how the non-union fracs just keep chugging along, eh?

Thank you as always for your support.
Click to expand...

I agree with bits and pieces from both sides. However, overall I feel your argument was correct. They (FI NetJet posters) were all saying that the mighty NetJets would never fail, yet they have. They would never furlough, yet they have. Their union would protect their employees and yet there are 495 pilots and who knows how many others, on the street. Now another round of furloughs coming next week? That is what I just heard from two furloughed NetJet pilots I met recently. You were absolutely right.

I got a good laugh out of whomever said it would have been different if RTS were still around....really? How? He was fired by WB from his own company!
 
7777 said:
I agree with bits and pieces from both sides. However, overall I feel your argument was correct. They (FI NetJet posters) were all saying that the mighty NetJets would never fail, yet they have. They would never furlough, yet they have. Their union would protect their employees and yet there are 495 pilots and who knows how many others, on the street. Now another round of furloughs coming next week? That is what I just heard from two furloughed NetJet pilots I met recently. You were absolutely right.

I got a good laugh out of whomever said it would have been different if RTS were still around....really? How? He was fired by WB from his own company!
Click to expand...


Yawn, how droll. Should we tell him his Netjet pilot sources are incorrect?
Instead of answering my buddy B on this post, you may want to just tap him on the shoulder when you pass his cubicle. So you guys can get your stories straight.

Hey B, I'm in PIE next week.. wanna do lunch? My treat.
 
If my sources are incorrect, well then someone in their company gave them the wrong information. I would believe them (furloughed NetJets pilots) before I would believe anything written on this board.

Also, if there are no more furloughs for NetJets, then I am very happy to read it. That would be GREAT news. Again, I will wait to hear it from a credible source.

You can PM B and let him know.
 
7777 said:
I agree with bits and pieces from both sides. However, overall I feel your argument was correct. They (FI NetJet posters) were all saying that the mighty NetJets would never fail, yet they have. Uh, no we haven't. Last time I checked, we're still here. Still the biggest (by far). On track this year to being quite profitable. Actual growth? Who knows. Had to cut back some, but how many fracs didn't? Just one that I know of. Pretty much union and non-union alike scaled back some. But so far we've all pulled through the worst (so far) of the economy. How is that failure? They would never furlough, yet they have. True, some here have said we would never furlough. But not all of us. I myself have even pointed out that Netjets had furloughed in the past (in its EJA days). Anyway, most folks here (including myself) are not official spokespersons for NJA management. Anyone with half a brain on this website (a rare breed, I know) could tell you that anyone who said we would NEVER furlough was guessing, and being unrealistically optimistic. Their union would protect their employees and yet there are 495 pilots and who knows how many others, on the street. Hate to break it to you, but our union has done a stellar job of protecting our pilot group. No matter what our union does or did, it was ALWAYS up to management to furlough or not. But our union put up one hell of a fight to try and keep pilots on property (not our union's job to look after the non-union employees). While it's incredibly sad that we had 495 furloughed, we have taken no wage cuts, no reduction in benefits, no downgrades in hotels, etc....Grievances are WAY down, as are discipline actions against the pilot group. This is all thanks to our union and their continued enforcement of our contract (a union's primary purpose) and it's ability to effectively look after it's membership (a union's secondary purpose). Now another round of furloughs coming next week? Nope. That is what I just heard from two furloughed NetJet pilots I met recently. They were wrong or misinformed. Not that more furloughs can't or won't happen in the future, but for now, things are stable. You were absolutely right. Nope.

I got a good laugh out of whomever said it would have been different if RTS were still around....really? How? We be out of business right now. Can't argue with that one. He was fired by WB from his own company! Sadly true.
Click to expand...

Our union has done, and is doing, exactly what it's supposed to be doing, and doing it very well. If we have enough pilots to crew 500 planes, but only enough business for 400 planes, no union on Earth, no matter how good, can keep the maanagement bean counters from recognizing that a certain percentage of pilots aren't needed and have to go. Not sure how you consider furloughs to be the fault of the union. It was, in fact, MANAGEMENT who overhired, and ultimately had to reduce the workforce because of it. B's tired old blame-placing on our CBA's required staffing levels have NOTHING to do with the fact that the previous management team hired WAY beyond that, creating a very sad situation for those that were let go. Not the union's fault no matter how you spin it.
 
realityman said:
Our union has done, and is doing, exactly what it's supposed to be doing, and doing it very well. If we have enough pilots to crew 500 planes, but only enough business for 400 planes, no union on Earth, no matter how good, can keep the maanagement bean counters from recognizing that a certain percentage of pilots aren't needed and have to go. Not sure how you consider furloughs to be the fault of the union. It was, in fact, MANAGEMENT who overhired, and ultimately had to reduce the workforce because of it. B's tired old blame-placing on our CBA's required staffing levels have NOTHING to do with the fact that the previous management team hired WAY beyond that, creating a very sad situation for those that were let go. Not the union's fault no matter how you spin it.
Click to expand...

Too funny.... the only formula on how many pilots a company hires comes directly from the contract. Nothing more. The "bean counters" are smart enough to only hire the minimum staffing.

There isn't a union in the world that will not protect the top two thirds of the seniority list and cast away the rest.
 
rajflyboy said:
Here once again you proved the facts you post are incorrect. More Union jobs were lost than Non Union jobs.
Click to expand...

You didn't answer the question. I asked how many non-union jobs were cut before any union jobs were touched.

Those people lost their jobs first because of the high cost of the union contract. That's how it always happens.

I didn't ask how many, only the order of which it happened.
 
realityman said:
Our union has done, and is doing, exactly what it's supposed to be doing, and doing it very well. If we have enough pilots to crew 500 planes, but only enough business for 400 planes, no union on Earth, no matter how good, can keep the maanagement bean counters from recognizing that a certain percentage of pilots aren't needed and have to go. Not sure how you consider furloughs to be the fault of the union. It was, in fact, MANAGEMENT who overhired, and ultimately had to reduce the workforce because of it. B's tired old blame-placing on our CBA's required staffing levels have NOTHING to do with the fact that the previous management team hired WAY beyond that, creating a very sad situation for those that were let go. Not the union's fault no matter how you spin it.
Click to expand...


most of your statement is correct however you left out the very poor communication part? How did you miss that?
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom