Pinnacle gets TA

[dondk]

Whatever. Along with TSA, XJet, Comair, ASA, etc. Cry me a river.

You were the one challenging someone about raising the bar. With what I've heard (rumor only) your MEC may have set a new low. It doesn't take much to raise the bar when your group is looking to lower the standard.

For what it is worth, I never challenged anyone about raising the bar. I've been on the compliance side of the 9E contract for years. I know well where it currently is and the most it can go. There is no way they could raise the bar, none, nada. Perhaps in a section or two, maybe on a good day 3-4. Overall, the 9E contract is to far below ALL the others, the best case could only be average.

 

[dondk]

The company has no motivation because you have not given them any. Why would they care about giving you anything that makes your life better? You PCL pilots keep doing all that you can do for a company that doesn't care about you, but reaps the rewards from your efforts. Every day that they don't have to deal with a new contract is a day that they save money. XJT was the last group to really get retro pay. ASA shouldn't have settled for the "signing bonus" that they did, but I'd bet it was better than what PCL is looking at.

You are preaching to the choir on "doing all you can do". I agree 100%.
To counter though, in 04-06 the motivation of the pilot group was to do the time and get out (much like prison). Bunch of growth, jets, upgrades and many could look beyond the inadequacies. It was not a "bad" place, just not a great place, we knew where we stood in the regional world. No one had the dream of retiring from the place!

When it all came to an end, then people started to get serious, the company also became serious. It is the only place I know where negative reinforcement is the mantra. There is no relief via the contract, there is no relief any other way other than quitting. With no one hiring, what choice is left? A lousy job is still a job!

Finally as a contract carrier, when the mgmt goes and gets the bottom basement deal, there is nothing the pilot group can get because the mgmt has nothing to bargain with. You cannot get better pass bennies when mgmt gave them all away. You can only bargain for what is available, that is the dilemna this pilot group has. DCI cuts the flying, they lose bargaining power.

 

[PCL_128]

I wonder who brought forward the resolution to recall WG.

DTW FO rep, from what I'm hearing.

 

[Tarzan]

For what it is worth, I never challenged anyone about raising the bar.

My apologies on that one. Manfred made the quip, not you.

 

[WildBlue]

From what I heard the DTW FO rep and MSP FO rep did the motion. I also heard that one of the reps (I think the ATL FO) said that WG talked to them like they were children so he voted to recall. (Heard that from one of the CA reps.)

Bottom line, WG has been out of the top job for two years. This is SE's MEC, and if they didn't like what the NC was doing, they had years to fix it. WG is a sacrifice to the 300 hour JetU constituency. For him, it is a blessing....I'm not sure about the rest of us. He did a lot of good work and will be missed.

 

[redflyer65]

I've heard that..

1. During WG's MEC tenure, there was NO communication.

2. At the start of SE's reign there was continuous communcation.

3. When WG became Vice Chair, it went back to number one.


For what it's worth......

make your own opinion.

 

[manfred33]

My apologies on that one. Manfred made the quip, not you.

Actually, it was Rockit85s sarcastic-@ss remark about us raising the bar that caused me to ask the question. The bar that we are trying to raise is for our own pilots, #1, and then, if possible, for the regionals in general. But, as some others have already posted, much of our TA was negotiated a few years ago, and there's no going back to renegotiate those sections without being accused of bargaining in bad faith, etc... And of course there is the fact that our contract was so miserably horrible to begin with, that we are really trying to improve things on our property before we worry about tryng to "raise the bar" for every other crappy regional out there. I shouldn't really be repeating any of this crap, because it has already been said by others, more eloquently. Just get annoyed when some punk feels that Pinnacle hasn't "raised the bar" enough for the rest of the poor slobs out there. We'll worry about our own people first and then if we can, try to get something close to industry leading... Freaking TA hasn't even been voted on yet by our MEC, and people are worried about whether or not we have an 'INDUSTRY-LEADING" contract yet. Christ, most of the pilot group hasn't even seen it yet, so just shut yer yaps..

 

[dondk]

I've heard that..

1. During WG's MEC tenure, there was NO communication.

2. At the start of SE's reign there was continuous communcation.

3. When WG became Vice Chair, it went back to number one.


For what it's worth......

make your own opinion.

I am not going to defend either party, but I will say that I would not be surprised if some of this is smoke and mirrors.

WG groomed SE for the chair, it was well known within certain circles that WG was stepping down and SE stepping up. I will say I was floored when WG took the 2nd position ( I did not see that coming).

WG in the early years had lousy communication, when BB was around though we had pretty good communication. If anything WG kept some things too close, but there was always climb and maintain and in the later years PDH.

SE took over and communication waned a bit, lets be honest how many notices of "we will tell you what happened in a few days" that became vapor? SE keeps things close too, I never knew WG to sell of grievances for FPL, SE does which is no different from some of the comments that WG didn't give a hoot about anyone junior to him.

Regardless, neither are innocent, neither are "lily white", what happens now and going forward is SE legacy. Time will tell...


For the NC committee and "fixing it"... C'mon, they are on the 3rd iteration of the NC committee. If they really wanted it "fixed" they would have disbanded them years ago, instead as each team flew the coop for SWA, JB or DAL they back filled. Not that the current team is bad, but the current team really never had a chance. It is either they did not want to fix it, or they couldn't. I'd lean towards that they couldn't, and if this TA goes nowhere this is the opportunity to fix it.

 

[WildBlue]

Some good points. I disagree that comm was "lousy" in the early years. WG was doing everything....new hires, representations, grievances. His Vice Chair never did any work. You are right about BB. He put together a network that has just gone down hill. Comm is run by MSP FO Rep and he has let the whole thing wither away to nothing. PDHs with no info at all. That is the comm network.

Say what you want about WG, but at least he didn't hide in his office. Remember him coming to up here to DTW and taking questions for hours. We have never seen SE. All we have are Dr. No and Minnie-me.

IMO, the ox is really in the ditch. The talent pool is zero. No volunteers who actually do any work and a bunch of names on a volunteer roster who only want to get their cell phones paid for or run tabs at the nearest bar at MEC meetings. pathetic.

 

[dondk]

Some good points. I disagree that comm was "lousy" in the early years. WG was doing everything....new hires, representations, grievances. His Vice Chair never did any work. You are right about BB. He put together a network that has just gone down hill. Comm is run by MSP FO Rep and he has let the whole thing wither away to nothing. PDHs with no info at all. That is the comm network.

Say what you want about WG, but at least he didn't hide in his office. Remember him coming to up here to DTW and taking questions for hours. We have never seen SE. All we have are Dr. No and Minnie-me.

IMO, the ox is really in the ditch. The talent pool is zero. No volunteers who actually do any work and a bunch of names on a volunteer roster who only want to get their cell phones paid for or run tabs at the nearest bar at MEC meetings. pathetic.

I will give you that about WG in the early years. I remember him at my new hire presentation, but I cannot speak a bad word about GT who was VC until he retired. The communication though was not the best, I am talking the real early days before those 2 northern bases came to their own. The time period when DTW had that smelly trailer not to far from the golf course.

PDH these days are odd, you have to realize that the PDH is not always accurate, it is what they want you to hear. That's the big difference from WG period. That is why I mentioned smoke and mirror, it is not all what it appears to be.

There are some GOOD volunteers that do work and don't milk the ALPA gravy train, there have always been people just being placeholders on some committee. If we were not losing the MSP office, I guarantee you the MEC would have been moved to MSP. You have a chair that is in it for the $$$$, just ask DD the DTW BM about the many months of less than 30 block with 130+ credit months back a few years ago. It was DTW's own DM (ABM) that found that oddity.

Regardless, I am sure there were excesses under WG, so neither are innocent. The one difference though, under WG is someone stepped out of line, it was not a public smack down. When JH went slightly over it was done discretely for him to move aside. Recently, you have public petitions, very public recalls and a smack down of a former union leader who is well respected. We never had that under WG, it was always done with discretion.

 

[WildBlue]

That last part....I had not thought about that. Dictatorships are run that way. Publically execute anyone who gets in the way or has a contrary opinion. This generation grew up with political discourse as demonstrated by Hannity, O'Reilly, etc. Shout down anyone who disagrees. This is not McNeil/Lehrer.

It was just a matter of time before the MEC finally went dysfunctional. And none of the new kids on the block want to get involved, work together and pull the ox out of the ditch. Just sad.

 

[JustaNumber]

In addition, 99% of the pilot group had nothing to do with the TA...

Maybe I got spoiled with the way the contract was negotiated at ASA, but here's how it worked for us and I assumed it worked with every contract negotiation:

1. Negotiating committee CONSTANTLY polled pilot group to gauge what the pilot group wanted, and what the minimum they would settle for was, on every single contract issue.
2. Negotiating committee used polling data in determining what to aim for, and how low to go on each item.
3. Negotiating committee was reasonably certain that their final TA met the requirements of the pilot group, and would be ratified, otherwise they would not have agreed to the provisions. That's why it took 5 years.

So it truly is a representational contract, negotiated on behalf of the entire pilot group's desires and beliefs. To say that 99% of the pilot group had nothing to do with the TA is either incorrect, or your pilot group needs to replace your entire representational structure. It is YOUR contract, not the negotiating committee's contract.

 

[Smarta$$]

From what I heard the DTW FO rep and MSP FO rep did the motion. I also heard that one of the reps (I think the ATL FO) said that WG talked to them like they were children so he voted to recall. (Heard that from one of the CA reps.)

Bottom line, WG has been out of the top job for two years. This is SE's MEC, and if they didn't like what the NC was doing, they had years to fix it. WG is a sacrifice to the 300 hour JetU constituency. For him, it is a blessing....I'm not sure about the rest of us. He did a lot of good work and will be missed.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I am not JETU or a 300 hour wonder and will not defend them. Ever. Just wonder what you mean exactly.

 

[Smarta$$]

Maybe I got spoiled with the way the contract was negotiated at ASA, but here's how it worked for us and I assumed it worked with every contract negotiation:

1. Negotiating committee CONSTANTLY polled pilot group to gauge what the pilot group wanted, and what the minimum they would settle for was, on every single contract issue.
2. Negotiating committee used polling data in determining what to aim for, and how low to go on each item.
3. Negotiating committee was reasonably certain that their final TA met the requirements of the pilot group, and would be ratified, otherwise they would not have agreed to the provisions. That's why it took 5 years.

So it truly is a representational contract, negotiated on behalf of the entire pilot group's desires and beliefs. To say that 99% of the pilot group had nothing to do with the TA is either incorrect, or your pilot group needs to replace your entire representational structure. It is YOUR contract, not the negotiating committee's contract.

Carefull with your assumptions there. We were polled constantly. We told them what we wanted and what we expected. We as pilots were NOT aiming low.

Here is the problem, the TA seems to not represent, at all, in any way what we told the pollsters.

The question is why. I have my suspitions, which were formed from information from some within the MEC.

Sad state for us. We are not in a good position at all. And I think we were sold out from a few of the old guard from within.

Your right, we were polled. But did the negotiating commitee follow what we said we needed. Plus, I am not going to lie, we do have some serious pussies here.

 

[dondk]

Maybe I got spoiled with the way the contract was negotiated at ASA, but here's how it worked for us and I assumed it worked with every contract negotiation:

1. Negotiating committee CONSTANTLY polled pilot group to gauge what the pilot group wanted, and what the minimum they would settle for was, on every single contract issue.
2. Negotiating committee used polling data in determining what to aim for, and how low to go on each item.
3. Negotiating committee was reasonably certain that their final TA met the requirements of the pilot group, and would be ratified, otherwise they would not have agreed to the provisions. That's why it took 5 years.

So it truly is a representational contract, negotiated on behalf of the entire pilot group's desires and beliefs. To say that 99% of the pilot group had nothing to do with the TA is either incorrect, or your pilot group needs to replace your entire representational structure. It is YOUR contract, not the negotiating committee's contract.

There is being polled and then there really being polled for what the pilots wanted. We were polled with the same damn questions. What do you think of your pay? would you say, very underpaid, somewhat underpaid, adequately underpaid, not underpaid enough, or overpaid? Why was that question even asked? Or my favorite, is the MEC doing a good job, could be better, could be worse or piss poor job? Why we were polled about our feelings regarding the MEC was another dumba$$ question.

I don't know why we were polled so much, if the MEC and NC committee was clueless to the needs of the pilots they were the wrong people to start with. Ideally, since they were/are line pilots they should have known what the pilot group NEEDED, then polled for what the pilot group wanted. Would a pilot give up a day off to get health bennies? Would a pilot give up hotel quality for block or better? Te pilots were not polled on if they thought getting rid of moving days was desired, they were not polled if 1.60 per diem was too little, sadly those issues were left out.

Did they read the results of the polls? I know the MEC did, I am sure the NC saw some of the results. The issue is the MEC directed the NC, not the pilot group. As Smarta$$ states, you may assume that some of the MEC interpreted the polls there own way and directed the NC accordingly. Heck, they wrote the polling questions, it should be no surprise that the polls may not match the actual desires of pilots.

I don't know if anyone was sold out by the old guard. It takes a majority to approve a section of the TA. When and IF the TA is released, the questions at the road shows to the elected reps should be what did you vote on this section and why. If the NC shows up, the questions to them should be what direction were you given on this section.

If it happens and someone did it, that would be priceless, although as Smarta$$, there are some serious pussies that are too afraid to stand up.

 

[PCL_128]

The issue is the MEC directed the NC, not the pilot group.

Actually, I would argue that the real problem was that NO ONE was directing the NC. The MEC is supposed to be the ones directing them, not the pilot group. The pilot group directs the MEC, and the MEC directs every committee. Unfortunately, I think there has been a problem on the PCL MEC for a long time that too many MEC members are apathetic and not keeping a close enough eye on what's going on with their own committees.

 

[dondk]

Unfortunately, I think there has been a problem on the PCL MEC for a long time that too many MEC members are apathetic and not keeping a close enough eye on what's going on with their own committees.

Sadly, I agree. They wonder why no one wants to volunteer.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is the direct result of creating a whole level of flying that is simply a "stepping stone"....Nobody really cares because they are leaving in a few years for greener pastures.....We created this mess once again....

 

[PCL_128]

This is the direct result of creating a whole level of flying that is simply a "stepping stone"....Nobody really cares because they are leaving in a few years for greener pastures.....We created this mess once again....

No disagreement.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No disagreement.

.....then why do you promote it?