SWA / Frontier Deal Off For Now!

[fiel12]

Just keep in mind that if they are caught using this information as a competitive advantage then Gary Kelly and his Texan buddies go to prison.

Also, after WN management looked at our books and examined our cost structure, they still wanted to proceed with the deal. Our costs (CASM ex-fuel) are lower than theirs, and we have a superior product.

We also have customer loyalty that has been elusive to them in the Denver market.

First quote of many that demonstrates a couple things...the arrogance of the SWA pilot group and the ignorance of the law of the land.



Yes they do. Legal rights. Its called the Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs and its the LAW OF THE LAND.



Guess what? Virgin has already expressed interest in F9's Airbii.



Again, SWA arrogance on parade. I can remember a time when it was inconceivable that there could be an airline industry without Pan Am, Eastern, TWA, etc. Things change, pal.



You noticed that too?



"...as long as they're stapled to the bottom of our list." You forgot to add that part.



Wrong. They're just standing up for their LEGAL rights. You buy their airline, you must integrate the seniority list using the Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs. And one of the BIG items in that is NO WINDFALLS.

Placing F9 pilots behind new hire SWA pilots constitutes a huge windfall for junior SWA guys. And there's no argument there.



What does this even mean?



:laugh:



Exactly right. Past growth cannot be extrapolated into the future.



Much as I HATE agreeing with anything ID says, he's right about this one. Allegheny/Mohawk precludes windfalls. Now you might toss the "career expectations" card on the table, but that is generally understood to mean upgrading from narrowbody to widebody equipment. That is a nonstarter in this case because both airlines are narrowbody operators.

Here's the ONLY fair way to integrate these two carriers that complies with current Federal Law:

1. No bump, no flush.
2. All SWA pilots hired before the startup date of the current airline known as Frontier are protected.
3. The rest of the F9 and SWA pilots are ratioed together based on the number of remaining pilots.

Period, end of story.

Flame away.

For the 1,000,000,000th time, if WN doesn't purchase F9 there is no A/H B/M. You can't impose those laws if there is no acquisition. F9 goes to RAH. If FAPA agrees to a staple, that would be binding. There would be no arbitration, and the A/H and B/M would be satisfied because FAPA agreed to the terms. SWAPA offered a staple with pay protection. FAPA said no. Because of that, SWA may retract their bid to buy F9. If FAPA agrees to SWAPA's offer then read my 4th and 5th sentence. If FAPA doesn't agree to SWAPA's offer then WN says they will retract their bid and my first sentence will apply. FAPA can either accept SWAPA's offer or try their chances with RAH.

Get it?

 

[GuppyWN]

My .02 - again.

The haters keep saying SWA guys are arrogant because we want a staple. We quit our jobs to come to SWA to EARN our seniority. F9 is bankrupt and has been promised a job and AT LEAST pay protection - or a raise.

Windfall - A captains seat at SWA for F9 dudes? Talk about a windfall! No way no how. You could have quit F9 years ago and hired on at SWA. You chose not to. I'm OK with that.

If the deal blows up then so be it. The FAPA guys think they can do better at RAH then SWA. Maybe they can, maybe they can't.

I know if I was still at F9 I'd be pissed as hell to get stapled but at the end of the day I would be REALLY REALLY REALLY happy that I got "hired" at SWA without interviewing and can look my family in the eyes and feel some security.

Good luck to all. I mean it.
Gup

 

[shootr]

It's real and it's in the F9 folder on the SWAPA forum.

 

[Dash Power]

I think this is a BS post. Looked on SWAPA web site and cannot find anything about it. Also no email alert from SWAPA or the Merger adn Acquisition Committee which has been keeping us in the loop with email alerts and info.....Let's see some proof

Go to the SWAPA forum, open the Frontier folder at the top, the very top thread is right there.

Its real my friend.

 

[Porch]

Staple or RAH? NO brainer. Take the dang staple at WN... Please!

 

[GuppyWN]

BTW,

My biggest concern is now the gloves will come off.

Gary Kelly tried to "save the hometown airline." There may be a real chance of the buy and fold option coming soon.

Hope not,
Gup

 

[Fubijaakr]

For the 1,000,000,000th time, if WN doesn't purchase F9 there is no A/H B/M. Get it?

I get it. But, if you DO buy F9, Allegheny/Mohawk applies. Period, end of story.

The haters keep saying SWA guys are arrogant because we want a staple.

You are correct. You want to staple guys, you're engaging in a seat grab. That is, by definition, arrogant.

Windfall - A captains seat at SWA for F9 dudes? Talk about a windfall! No way no how.

If you buy and staple them, you're essentially grabbing THEIR left seats. And that's NOT a windfall? GMAFB!

You could have quit F9 years ago and hired on at SWA. You chose not to. I'm OK with that.

And YOU could have stayed there. Today you'd be 10 years senior. Breaks of aviation, pal. You never know the consequences of the choices you make. My next interview was with UPS, but I passed. Sure wish I had done it now.

So, what's the point? Just because you jumped ship early you think you're better than an F9 guy who was loyal? You think YOU deserve HIS left seat? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty arrogant.

 

[GuppyWN]

So, what's the point? Just because you jumped ship early you think you're better than an F9 guy who was loyal? You think YOU deserve HIS left seat? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty arrogant.

Well...... yes. Call me a pr!ck I guess.

Gup

 

[Quiet Flight]

A/M & B/M don't apply in this situation. Period.

 

[General Lee]

I think Gary Kelly will be calling SWAPA this afternoon and saying "hey guys, ummmmm, any chance.......ummmm.....you can....ummmmm give them a better....ummmm....deal? We'd really like to be the largest by far in DEN, and this will cost me my bonus......"

This was either the DUMBEST move ever by FAPA, or the SMARTEST. And, if Republic owns F9 at the end of the day, then SWA may regret it. It is allowing another fish into the pond, and that fish will be growing. Morris Air was different, since it was 2 years old. F9 is not the same. You SWA guys should know that, and quit being so cocky. We didn't staple the Pan Am guys at DL while they were going down and we purchased some of their assets, and our financials back then were better than SWA's today.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well...... yes. Call me a pr!ck I guess.

And there you have the overriding reason its time for a National Seniority list.

 

[instructordude]

and there you have the overriding reason its time for a national seniority list.

we need a list now!!!!

 

[General Lee]

And there you have the overriding reason its time for a National Seniority list.

Nah, if you choose an airline in the beginning and it goes poorly, that was YOUR fault. This isn't Russia where you are assigned an airline. There are good and bad choices everywhere. National Seniority lists don't take your own bad judgement into account. Can you do the same with a wife you don't like after 10 years too? (Not mine, I love you honey-snookems!!)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[canyonblue737]

A few points...

1. The most senior guy at F9 will make less, far less than they do today as the most senior guy at F9 controlled by RAH.

2. The most senior guy at F9 stapled to the bottom at WN will make instantly more than they do today because they get pay protected at their old pre-cuts rates at F9 OR the SWA FO rates based on their F9 hire date which to be honest is likely much more. Further they get these raises instantly, not just when they transition over to WN. Did I mention the coming 100% 9.3% 401k match, the 6% at least raise to our current pay rates, and an average 17 days off a month?

3. Having F9 pilots stapled to WN is not a windfall for WN pilots. We had a/c orders for the next 2 years that are about the same as the overall size of F9. Our most junior FO reasonably expected to see 400-600 pilots placed behind him as a result and with a staple will simply fill that same expected amount with F9 pilots rather than interviewed pilots. A staple represents a windfall for F9 pilots in the sense of they keep their jobs, they get large pay raises and retirement gains, and work for unarguably the most financially sound airline of the last 40 years. If F9 pilots get spread through the seniority list of WN in anyway it represents a penalty to junior WN pilots and the same, if even larger, windfall to F9 pilots and that IS unfair.

4. The F9 pilots or perhaps more accurately their leadership is operating under the assumption they can get a windfall of even greater proportions by simply waiting out for a judge but that may prove to be a mistake of epic proportions if SWA keeps their word and backs out of this deal. If you don't believe they will simply Google "Transtar pilots" and see it for yourself.

Good luck. I *want* F9 pilots to have careers at WN, but now its up to them. If your leadership is not speaking for you, speak up.

 

[airlinepilot]

There is nothing on SWAPA web site about this and I have not received anything via email updatge or alerts. Based on that I don't think this is true. Any other SWA guys get any emails or alert messages?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Are you serious? Any SWA F/O who has an F9 CAPTAIN stapled behind him just got a HUGE windfall.

 

[GuppyWN]

There is nothing on SWAPA web site about this and I have not received anything via email updatge or alerts. Based on that I don't think this is true. Any other SWA guys get any emails or alert messages?

It's in the "Frontier" folder at the top of the forum list.

Gup

 

[shootr]

Dude...how lazy are you? It's there.

 

[General Lee]

A few points...

1. The most senior guy at F9 will make less, far less than they do today as the most senior guy at F9 controlled by RAH.

2. The most senior guy at F9 stapled to the bottom at WN will make instantly more than they do today because they get pay protected at their old pre-cuts rates at F9 OR the SWA FO rates based on their F9 hire date which to be honest is likely much more. Further they get these raises instantly, not just when they transition over to WN. Did I mention the coming 100% 9.3% 401k match, the 6% at least raise to our current payrates, and an average 17 days off a month?

3. Having F9 pilots stapled to WN is not a windfall for WN pilots. We had a/c orders for the next 2 years that are about the same as the overall size of F9. Our most junior FO reasonably expected to see 400-600 pilots placed behind him as a result and with a staple will simply fill that same expected amount with F9 pilots rather than interviewed pilots. A staple represents a windfall for F9 pilots in the sense of they keep their jobs, they get large pay raises and retirement gains, and work for unarguably the most finical sound airline of the last 40 years. If F9 pilots get spread through the seniority list of WN in anyway it represents a penalty to junior WN pilots and the same, if even larger, windfall to F9 pilots and that IS unfair.

4. The F9 pilots or perhaps more accurately their leadership is operating under the assumption they can get a windfall of even greater proportions by simply waiting out for a judge but that may prove to be a mistake of epic proportions if SWA keeps their word and backs out of this deal. If you don't believe they will simply Google "Transtar" and see if yourself.

Good luck. I *want* F9 pilots to have careers at WN, but now its up to them.

Arbitrators do not ONLY look at pay. In fact, with the Bond/McKaskill bill out there, I can tell why you guys are "running scared." You want this to happen, to gain from it with a large DEN base and seniority grab, but you don't want to be fair. I don't think F9 pilots should get DOH or relative, but a staple is NOT fair. They are bringing something to the table alright. You don't want to admit it. If Republic does win the bid, it will take you a lot longer to take over DEN, and you won't have a place to put all of your new 737s. Think of all the new 737 Capt spots that will open if this deal does go through.......that is your ONLY motivation, and it is obvious.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[airlinepilot]

It's in the "Frontier" folder at the top of the forum list.

Gup

Is it a forum post or an actual FAPA document. From what I have read on the SWAPA site everything appears normal. Also nothing from SWA about this on their site or emails. I just tried to call the Dom rep....hopefully he will call me back.

 

[shootr]

It's a forum post from SWAPA, specifically SWAPA Comms.

 

[canyonblue737]

airlinepilot: its all real. things started moving fast early last night. swapa keeps a twitter account with details and numerous domicile reps as well as people on the M&A committee have been posting nearly every few hours on the changing conditions in the frontier forum folder. i suspect SWAPA will remain silent on our front page and publicly, as has SWA in the Today@SWA etc., because the situation is so dynamic and likely to play out in the next few days if not the next few hours.

 

[canyonblue737]

Are you serious? Any SWA F/O who has an F9 CAPTAIN stapled behind him just got a HUGE windfall.

Again SWA is going to grow in the next few years and has many aircraft orders. Clearly SWA would prefer to get these markets overnight from F9 and then use those orders to switch to the 737 but if the deal doesn't happen that doesn't mean no growth at SWA, it means organic and perhaps slightly slower and perhaps more expensive to SWA growth. Either way our junior guy expected growth behind him. If you insert the majority of F9 guys ahead of him then all the next few years increase in airplanes won't benefit his seniority position at all and then it means that the purchase of F9 actually HURT his seniority. Having the F9 guys behind him and the next few years worth of 737s going to support ex-F9 routes simply represents his original expectations, just with pilots below him from F9 instead of the street.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

It is almost funny how desperate the junior sw pilots seem to be as they try to convince the f9s how great a staple would be. Sw is not winning denver. You guys are not use to going in somewhere and not winning(you are not the sw of yester year. closer and closer to a legacy everyday). If this doesn't go thru and f9 survives or goes with rep. southwest has a huge problem on their hands in den. Y'all are losing in denver. There are not that many places left to pick the low hanging fruit for the growth your company needs to keep overall costs in check. Without this and a retreat in denver look for furloughs.

 

[shootr]

I am not junior. I am a senior FO with a good schedule. I would likely lose little if this went to an arbitrator (which it won't). I have a duty to my fellow SWAPA members to protect their seniority as their dues pay for my union. Not all about me.

shootr

 

[Quiet Flight]

Staple or RAH? NO brainer. Take the dang staple at WN... Please!

Copy your post. Paste it in an email to your union reps. Hit send. Over and over and over and over and over... Or don't. I'm sure RAH will be awesome too. Judging by the pay rates on APC, the F9 guys will clean up as RAH f/o's as opposed to being WN f/o's.

 

[California]

in the news, found via yahoo finance - LUV
Southwest Airlines' bid for Frontier may be in trouble 9:45 AM CT


[SIZE=-1]10:22 AM CDT on Thursday, August 13, 2009[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][email protected] [/SIZE]

Southwest Airlines' bid for Frontier Airlines may be in trouble.
According to an e-mail purportedly sent from Southwest’s pilot union to its members, the union failed to reach a deal with Frontier’s pilots union last night over integration terms. Getting that deal is a condition of Southwest’s bid.
Also Online
Southwest Airlines sees big potential with Frontier bid
Airline Biz blog: Get the latest news and commentary on the industry


The e-mail from the union says Southwest will ask for an extension on its $170 million bid for Frontier’s assets, as the auction was set to take place on Thursday.
Southwest Airlines Pilots Association spokesman Neal

 

[vixin]

Are you serious? Any SWA F/O who has an F9 CAPTAIN stapled behind him just got a HUGE windfall.

And that F9 CA just received a raise(pre concesion pay) with that staple. Better benefits, stable employment all for giving up a stripe. Are F9 CA really that arrogant? I also do not believe anyone would be furloughed in the deal. Gary's plan was for more expantion after the deal was done. Why is it windfalls for F9 are ok. I dont think windfalls for anyone are, but its not like F9 guys were getting nothing for the staple. If the F9 CA got date of hire what does the SWA pilots(FO) get? Nothing and a lower relative senority to boot.

 

[Caveman]

A few things to consider.

Forget pride, ego and what seat you were in at F9 for a moment. The staple offer was extremely generous if you only look at dollars and cents. In fact it was so generous that some F9 CAs may have been making more than SWA FO's that would be senior to them. Add in the longevity for vacations, etc and it was an unbelievable offer. Remember that old adage about if something is too good to be true? I have to wonder why the offer was so lucrative from SWA? Maybe they have no intention of ever actually having to make good on those promises. Furloughs? Liquidation?

Maybe the reason the offer was so good is because SWA has to get this done. They've shown their cards and are all in. Maybe the downside of a reinforced RAH in DIA is a nightmare they don't want to deal with. Maybe the upside of eliminating F9, hindering RAH's growth and going head to head with UAL on a equal basis is just too good to pass up, no matter the cost.

I don't know the answers to any of this. I agree on one thing, the F9 MEC either made a real smart decision or an incredibly stupid one. If it was the smart decision he has some extremely large cajones to make that call.

 

[Quiet Flight]

Latest rumor from SWAPA rep: WN is going to pull the plug on their bid later today. Apparently the extension is not what SWA really wants at this point. They were hoping FAPA would come around but are prepared for Plan B.

For the record, I seriously doubt this is true. Would suck for those F9 guys though if it turns out it is. "Well honey this is the deal I could have had, but we said no. So do you want to move to Indy or Columbus? By the way, we'll have no money. Oh and I'll be furloughed behind the 104 currently on furlough at RAH."

I'll be curious to see what the second act for WN will be...