"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[ASA_Aviator]

One reason that "merit" has not been adopted as the standard for advancement is that people can't agree on who will award the rankings. Should it be Management? Sim instructors/check airmen? Crewmembers who fly with the guy frequently? Clerks who track on-time/fuel burn stats? If the answer is "all of the above", what weight will be assigned to the order of merit produced by each source? I can foresee infighting, campaigning, and even corruption in such a system.

Sure it wouldn't be easy, but don't you think we could figure out a merit based system? It sure would be better to reward quality work, than to play to the least common denominator. Right now, all anyone has to do to advance is be employed long enough to hold the seat, and not do anything stupid on a checkride.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Oh? Just because most of us has disagreed means that we have to "grow up"? News for you Junior, Not everyone in your life will agree with you. It is you that needs to grow up.....and grow a pair while you're at it.

No, disagreement is fine. (You guys are the ones who seem to get all upset by someone posting something not main-stream... See the idiot below.) Just post something coherent, and I know it is asking a lot, but using a little logic always helps too.

This is what I was referring to with "grow up."

D00che... (nuff said)

 

[pilotyip]

Enjoy your flying, be happy

Anyone with a minimum level of skill and desire can fly an airplane, high school drops out do just fine. Success is this career is based much more upon luck and timing that it is on skill and desire. Having worked 11 different jobs since leaving the Navy, 4 of them non-flying, full time flying is the easiest job I have ever had. This is not flame bait.

 

[Caveman]

I agree with ASA Aviator and pilotyip. In the Marine Corps I worked harder, more hours and with a lot more stress than I do now. I also made more money as a regional FO than I did in the Marine Corps.

This job requires a unique skill set, but day in and day out it's not particularly difficult, physically demanding or stressful. We have our moments when all the above applies, but in general it's a pretty easy gig. Like somebody else mentioned, we don't get paid for what do. We get paid for what we know how to do.

I'm not a youngster or a wealthy career changer and I don't suffer from SJS. I'm all for improving pay and QOL, but I enjoy what I do despite all the negative aspects of this career. I can recognize the unique shortcomings of a pro pilot job and still enjoy the work.

 

[Farfugnügen]

go through med school and become an intern and then residence and see how much you are paid. Lots of professional jobs have a low salary when you start - I have absolutely no problem with first year regional pilots making 16k in a couple of years they are making 35 and a couple of more they are pushing 50. I don't lose sleep with that. I am much more concerned with folks that have been working somewhere 20 years and have been downgraded, lost their pensions and are doomed to retire in a few years.

Average first year medical school residency pay is $35k/year with an average of $1,500 more each year you spend in residency. A lot more than a first year FO.

 

[Kalifornia]

Anyone with a minimum level of skill and desire can fly an airplane, high school drops out do just fine. Success is this career is based much more upon luck and timing that it is on skill and desire. Having worked 11 different jobs since leaving the Navy, 4 of them non-flying, full time flying is the easiest job I have ever had. This is not flame bait.

Again, the management guy on here is trying his best at lowering expectations, minimizing the respect of the job, and pretending like a college, let alone a high school degree is meaningless. You're on some weird personal quest to make this job into a burger flipping equivalent. Just strikes me as beyond believable that because you didn't have the best of luck in your career, that you in turn are now trying to side track others from making a decent wage.

Minimum level of skill? Yea, you can fly an airplane with minimum level of skill, but can you do it without crashing over time? With the latest rash of larger airplane crashes along with the constant number of smaller airplanes going down, you think you'd have common sense and decency to respect the seriousness of any mistake made in the airplane. The difficulty to this job is avoiding especially CNN lead story mistakes whether complacency with routine tasks or dealing with a complex abnormal situation that was last dealt with in a simulator years back. The burger flipper can make a new hamburger. Why is this concept so difficult to understand; or do you just enjoy being ignorant or do you envy someone like Frank Lorenzo?

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Anyone with a minimum level of skill and desire can fly an airplane, high school drops out do just fine. Success is this career is based much more upon luck and timing that it is on skill and desire. Having worked 11 different jobs since leaving the Navy, 4 of them non-flying, full time flying is the easiest job I have ever had. This is not flame bait.

I had a boss years ago who gave me a very sage piece of aviation wisdom;"I don't pay you to fly the airplane, I could teach a monkey to do that. I pay you to make good decisions." That was back in the mid-late 90's, and I was flying a Caravan for almost $50K/yr.

If you judge success in this career by getting hired, then yes, luck does play it's part. But once in the job, experience and good judgement are what will keep you alive. It is the latter that management has issues with paying for. And that is what pilots are fighting for.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[ualdriver]

Sure it wouldn't be easy, but don't you think we could figure out a merit based system? It sure would be better to reward quality work, than to play to the least common denominator. Right now, all anyone has to do to advance is be employed long enough to hold the seat, and not do anything stupid on a checkride.

Of course we could figure out a merit based system. We could "figure out" and sort of system one wants, from waiting for a signal from the heavens to cracking eggs and looking at the patterns the egg yolks make to see who gets to upgrade. Being able to "figure out" an alternate system is not the point.

The problem is that the merit based system is no better (and IMO) worse than what we have now. Maybe you're the best pilot on the planet but you don't come in on your days off. Maybe the worst pilot at your company does. Management notices that and gives the worst pilot an upgrade. Sounds fair, huh? Is that what you want? Think that would happen if we went to a merit based system? Nah.

Maybe you're the best pilot on the planet and you want to get a union on the property to fight the above injustice? Think you're going to get an upgrade then? The merit based system, at a large airline, would be a breeding ground for abuse by management teams that have proven themselves to be untrustworthy.

The point is your statement about "unionistas" was ridiculous. Even the non-union airlines (still waiting for you to tell us about those non-union airlines that have a merit based system) use the seniority based system for a reason- it's the best compromise when you have a large company with a large number of pilots.

 

[clickclickboom]

If you sit here reading this happy with your 35k a year or even your 65k a year in the left seat of your rj then you are a fool or as the above poster stated have no family, debt, dont commute etc....

I have three kids at home and it kills me to be away from them and in my opinion I have been fortunate enough with timing to be a senior FO that gives me all commutable trips and 18 days off a month a block 80-85 hrs with 95-100 hrs credit a month. That is enough to make me just over $100,000 plus 10% retirement. With mortgage, taxes, health insurance, retirement, saving for kids education, utilities, taxes etc etc etc I am barely getting by. The days of paying all my bills and having $5000 a month left over are long long gone...

Guys when you are living in your crash pad that 40k a year will put a killer stereo, some rims, and a new exhaust on your subaru wrx and leave plenty left over for that new ipod or surfboard but if you are dumb enough to knock up and marry that cart donkey in the back, buy her a house, and squeeze out a few more kids. Even with that lucky upgrade before your company goes bankrupt and or the major dumps your contract your ass will be broke like you never imagined.. Try to explain to the new housewife that she needs to go back to work to pay the bills.. Dont have family available to raise your kids for free? That will be $700 per month PER KID for some flunky to babysit them in day care..

 

[ualdriver]

Anyone with a minimum level of skill and desire can fly an airplane, high school drops out do just fine.

OK, pilotyip. I'll take that statement as I'm familiar with the qualities of high school dropouts as I've seen them and my wife was a teacher for many years.....

Let's say theoretically that every pilot in the U.S. found other work and we restaffed the entire industry with your average high school dropout. Your average high school dropout has certain "qualities" that I think many are familiar with, assuming the person didn't drop out due to external factors beyond his control (language, abuse etc.).......What do you think would happen to the airline industry? Think it would be safer? Think the airplanes would fly on time? Do you think we would have as reliable a system as we have now? I mean, it's an easy job, right, so NOTHING would change? Give me a break. Even if we could get the average high school drop out to get out of bed and in something resembling a uniform on time, they probably would apply the same low standards they apply to themselves to their profession and the mayhem would ensue.

But....But.......I know this high scool drop-out who's really smart. I know this high school dropout who......Yeah, yeah. I'm sure some drop-outs are brilliant and probably smarter than everyone on this board. I'm talking the average guy who finds it "hard" to find his way to school every day, not even fly an airplane.

 

[Browntothebone]

You can not have a merit based system. Not possible. Define how one would work, without making us laugh, and I'll give you a dollar.

Easy. Every pilot going through initial newhire training or when a vacancy bid comes out, goes through a computer tracked simulator profile that grades your deviations from the profile maneuvers. The pilots with the highest scores, regardless of seniority, get the captain upgrades. The computer would make it completely impartial and take out the human element of potential favoritism.

 

[clickclickboom]

Just to put things into perspective just how poorly we are paid:

I have a good friend that is a doctor. He does luncheons for a few different drug companies. He is not a salesman he is an allergist

The companies will set up a meeting room in a local hotel and send invites to 10-15 local doctors.

They are fully catered and usually start around 11:00 AM

My bud will make a 15 minute presentation and discuss one or two case studies and then hand out samples for the doctors.

He gets $1500-$2500 to spend 1 hour of his time and if he has to drive more than 30 minutes they will pay him $175 per hour plus expenses.

He usually does these once a week in a three state area. He made over $125,000 last year spending between 1-3 hours once a week including travel time.

That is just the EXTRA income he makes not including his practice

 

[Quack]

Sure it wouldn't be easy, but don't you think we could figure out a merit based system? It sure would be better to reward quality work, than to play to the least common denominator. Right now, all anyone has to do to advance is be employed long enough to hold the seat, and not do anything stupid on a checkride.

ASA, the merit based system simply will not work! when you are talking about an industry based on some level of safety, having guys cut corners to get an early/on time departure, not divert for fear of supervisors coming down hard on them, not writing up mx issues, or becoming the company whore will do more damage to this job and passengers than some stupid merit system.

 

[Browntothebone]

Average first year medical school residency pay is $35k/year with an average of $1,500 more each year you spend in residency. A lot more than a first year FO.

And the medical school graduate is MUCH more educated than the average regional pilot. Regional pilots get the pay they deserve. You don't see minor league baseball players getting major league pay, so have can you expect regional pilots to get major airline pay? Regionals are not, nor were they ever meant to be a career destination, except for looser, regional lifers. Put you time in and move on to a major like you are supposed to do.

 

[ualdriver]

After having read this thread, I'm confused. What's considered a "hard" job? How about the manual laborer? That must be the proverbial "hard" job, right?

Ditch digging seems like an extremely easy job to me at many different levels. Let's see, you work an 8 hour shift and you have no other work responsibilities. Cake. Leaning against your shovel when your supervisor's not looking because you don't care about personal responsibility- my God how easy is that. You can take the easy way out with your education. No studying. No showing up for class. Easy. Zero responsibilities on the job. Easy. All you have to do is manipulate a shovel and you're done. And if your supervisor doesn't like the way you shovel, he fires you and you find another EASY job, because who cares? Life is easy and getting fired and going from job to job is EASY. The person who's digging that ditch has taken the EASY way through life and has an EASY, CUSH job. Dropping out of high school, failing to get an education or learn a skill, taking the path of least resistance throughout one's life- that's EASY. That's CUSH. That requires ZERO skill.

Growing up and having the discipline to study when they are so many distractions- drugs, alcohol, sports, skirt, and forcing yourself to study and stay on track- THAT is hard. Going to college and taking on the responsibility and the debts associated with that- HARD. Having a company throw you a couple of thick books and say, "start memorizing" when you could be doing ANYTHING else that is distracting you- that's HARD.

If flying a plane really, really was EASY, none of us would be here today. EASY jobs get filled with people who have little to no education and can't find a job which even requires a modicum of responsibility or self discipline. This job would be filled by the guy in the above example when he got caught standing under a tree when he should have been working. Pilotyip's high-school dropouts would be flying planes and the rest of us would be doing something else. Now, of course, that's not what is happening in our real world because flying planes isn't "EASY." The day this "easy" job gets filled by the ranks of our society that truly can only handle "easy" jobs is the day aviation in the U.S. grinds to a halt and we start taking trains and buses to where we need to go.

 

[CopilotDoug]

After having read this thread, I'm confused. What's considered a "hard" job? How about the manual laborer? That must be the proverbial "hard" job, right?

Ditch digging seems like an extremely easy job to me at many different levels. Let's see, you work an 8 hour shift and you have no other work responsibilities. Cake. Leaning against your shovel when your supervisor's not looking because you don't care about personal responsibility- my God how easy is that. You can take the easy way out with your education. No studying. No showing up for class. Easy. Zero responsibilities on the job. Easy. All you have to do is manipulate a shovel and you're done. And if your supervisor doesn't like the way you shovel, he fires you and you find another EASY job, because who cares? Life is easy and getting fired and going from job to job is EASY. The person who's digging that ditch has taken the EASY way through life and has an EASY, CUSH job. Dropping out of high school, failing to get an education or learn a skill, taking the path of least resistance throughout one's life- that's EASY. That's CUSH. That requires ZERO skill.

Growing up and having the discipline to study when they are so many distractions- drugs, alcohol, sports, skirt, and forcing yourself to study and stay on track- THAT is hard. Going to college and taking on the responsibility and the debts associated with that- HARD. Having a company throw you a couple of thick books and say, "start memorizing" when you could be doing ANYTHING else that is distracting you- that's HARD.

If flying a plane really, really was EASY, none of us would be here today. EASY jobs get filled with people who have little to no education and can't find a job which even requires a modicum of responsibility or self discipline. This job would be filled by the guy in the above example when he got caught standing under a tree when he should have been working. Pilotyip's high-school dropouts would be flying planes and the rest of us would be doing something else. Now, of course, that's not what is happening in our real world because flying planes isn't "EASY." The day this "easy" job gets filled by the ranks of our society that truly can only handle "easy" jobs is the day aviation in the U.S. grinds to a halt and we start taking trains and buses to where we need to go.

Well said, UAL. It's good to see some people still take it seriously.

And for all those pilots not concerned about the money because they have it "easy" and they're "livin' the dream..."

Don't forget, you're one medical exam away from losing your career...
You're one accident/incident away from losing your career...
You're one checkride away from losing your career...

 

[tomgoodman]

Let the computer choose?

Easy. Every pilot going through initial newhire training or when a vacancy bid comes out, goes through a computer tracked simulator profile that grades your deviations from the profile maneuvers. The pilots with the highest scores, regardless of seniority, get the captain upgrades. The computer would make it completely impartial and take out the human element of potential favoritism.

Thanks for coming up with a specific plan. It would be impartial, but here are a couple of questions that occur to me:

1. Are you sure that precision simulator flying is the best measure of a Captain's merit? Current or former sim instructors would win this contest every time, regardless of their line experience, judgment, CRM skills, etc.

2. Would a "winner" receive tenure in the left seat, like a college professor, or would he be subject to downgrade if subsequent competitors outperform him? Continued reliance on a single, long-ago snapshot of the pilot's skill would not be a merit system, but a "former merit" system. The alternative of re-assigning pilots based on their latest sim check would be a training/scheduling nightmare.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

ASAAviator-

UALDriver beat me to it, but I would like to add to his opinion. Hard work does not equate to money. If it did, then yes a ditchdigger might make more than a pilot. How "hard" do you think Bill Gates works? How about Donald Trump? They make a lot of money. My point is that hard work should not be what determines pay. There is nothing wrong with guys that want more money or better work rules. That does not make them complainers alone. I am very satisfied with my job, but I would love some more money. Who wouldn't? I do believe that the regionals should have better work rules and they should make more money at the lower and middle scales of longevity.

It was the unions that equated number of seats to pay long ago. They did not associate hard work...if they did then the guys flying planes like twotters woulda been millionaires by now!

 

[Nindiri]

I'm always amused when I read these sorts of threads.

This job is so easy, but there's always a few trying to make it rocket science. It's easy to tell which people have never worked at anything other than being a pilot.

And, of course, there are always a few people complaining about how they are just starving to death on 75K annually. I'm always happy to make more, but really, if you can't get by on 75K then you need to seriously take a look at your lifestyle and spending habits.

 

[Caveman]

Well said, UAL. It's good to see some people still take it seriously.

And for all those pilots not concerned about the money because they have it "easy" and they're "livin' the dream..."

Don't forget, you're one medical exam away from losing your career...
You're one accident/incident away from losing your career...
You're one checkride away from losing your career...

There's two different topics in this thread. One is whether or not this is an 'easy' job. The other topic is whether or not we're paid enough for what we do. Just because I think my job is relatively easy doesn't mean I think I'm appropriately compensated. Based on how important a well trained, experienced pilot is for the overall safe operation of a company we are underpaid. Based on how absolutely critical our skill set is when everything starts to go wrong in flight we are underpaid. Unfortunately, the supply of skilled pilots exceeds demand so we are paid what the market will bear.