Actually Official RAH gets 190's for Midwest

[CX880]

This thread is going round and round in circles. Ok so all of you that are PMS-ing over this 190 crap. Career over and all that jazz. If you claim your career(s) are over, then what are you all waiting for? Don't let that regional 195 at the end of the tunnel hit you, move out of the way. I'm sure there's quite a few peeps out there that are ready to put on them stripes for a few bucks. Heck they might even be happy. You have to remind yourselves that times are changing right before your very eyes. It was mostly small, gradual changes. But once in a while, there's an eye opening big change. You're either changing with it or not. You do (believe it or not), have a choice. You stay, or go. Everything changes at one time or another. From hot @$$ FA's back then to big fat dudes serving you that coke, things change. From one end of the spectrum to the next. Eventually it may come full circle, but it won't stop there. It'll keep changing. You just have to try and make the best of it. Quit immaturely blaming eachother. Whether you like it not, you're all in it together. And I think that's the real big picture. Honestly, what the heck do you all want these Republic pilots to do? What....??

................... thanks for sharing.....

 

[crj567]

This thread is going round and round in circles. Ok so all of you that are PMS-ing over this 190 crap. Career over and all that jazz. If you claim your career(s) are over, then what are you all waiting for? Don't let that regional 195 at the end of the tunnel hit you, move out of the way. I'm sure there's quite a few peeps out there that are ready to put on them stripes for a few bucks. Heck they might even be happy. You have to remind yourselves that times are changing right before your very eyes. It was mostly small, gradual changes. But once in a while, there's an eye opening big change. You're either changing with it or not. You do (believe it or not), have a choice. You stay, or go. Everything changes at one time or another. From hot @$$ FA's back then to big fat dudes serving you that coke, things change. From one end of the spectrum to the next. Eventually it may come full circle, but it won't stop there. It'll keep changing. You just have to try and make the best of it. Quit immaturely blaming eachother. Whether you like it not, you're all in it together. And I think that's the real big picture. Honestly, what the heck do you all want these Republic pilots to do? What....??

Camel's nose in the tent.....
Next thing you know, the replacements will be a bunch of Mexicans-just wait and see....

 

[Minimaniac]

I thought we already were flying mainline aircraft. Did the 170 and 175 suddenly become regional again?

 

[Minimaniac]

So, what exactly is the big deal about RAH flying 190's? Who is surprised by this?

RAH began flying the 170 almost 5 years ago now. The whole 170/175/190/195 is a common type aircraft. When US Airways bought A319's, were you shocked to then see them get A320's and A321's? Our CEO has made it known since day one that 190's are the end game. The writing has been on the wall longer than most of you have even been airline pilots.

Now, for pay. Someone earlier worried that the RAH payrates will lower the bar for JetBlue and USAirways when they renegotiate. Well, USAirways will not have a new contract for as long as the pilots continue to throw poo over the whole Nicoli award and seniority integration. The East pilots are intentionally putting off the opportunity to raise their pay and QOL because to do so would enact the binding airbitration they don't like. And, if and when they ever do stop acting like children, they will have to negotiate UP to RAH's captain pay for 99 seat aircraft (the USAirways 190's are configured for 99 seats). And, until recently, first year FO's at US Airways were making $26/hr. And they could even be on a 757/767 for that wage!!!!! Not to mention airlines like CAL that start you at $30/hr with no health care benefits...and we all know of some "lucky" co-workers at our regionals who went to CAL and got into the 757, 767, or even the 777 for that wage. JetBlue does have the best E190 pay out there. That is what happens when: A) a payscale for that particular plane in negotiated in advance of the type arriving (which RAH has not yet completed), and B) the rate is not agreed to by union pilots who all fly bigger airplanes and what to keep the money for themselves (ala US Airways).

JetBlue will not farm out flying to RAH. They contracted with ExpressJet while in an extreme pinch once, but that was on a very limited basis, and ExpressJet was willing to do anything to keep revenue coming in the door.

None of the mainline/legacy carriers will scope out the 190's. With the exception of DAL, arguable the best run legacy out there now, every major carrier has pilots on furlough. No one is going to give away 100 seat flying while there are furloughs. Even the clusterfrick known as United will hold that line. If they don't, you should be runnig with pitchforks at that pilot group.

RAH got 2 190's for an airline that will not even have its own aircraft by the end of 2010. Boeing is taking ALL of the Midwest 717's. Do you really think that Midwest sold its soul to RAH and then decided to give back 16 717's? Midwest could not afford its own fleet, and contracted with RAH because they had larger airplanes sitting around idle. Midwest was dying long before RAH came into the picture. Looking back at posts on this site, you will find plenty of evidence backing me up around the time Airtran was making a bid for Midwest. RAH did not kill Midwest or take their pilots' jobs. Those jobs were going to be lost anyway. I still don't feel good about it, and I have never flown a Midwest trip, but that is the reality. RAH will probably get more 190's for Midwest in 2010. The two announced were lease aircraft. RAH does not have any delivery slots until 2010 for E-jets, so leases will have to do until then. But, when 2010 rolls around, look for more. In 2010, Midwest will lose all of the remianing 717's. The loss of these planes caught Midwest management a bit off guard, and they had to do something to continue the brand. Why they want to continue the brand when they have evicerated it so badly to this point is beyond me. But, Midwest management wants the name to live on. With no planes to fly, and no chance of getting the capital to buy or lease anything else, they needed someone else to provide the larger lift. Enter RAH management, desperate to get 190's.

If you want to call RAH a bottom feeder, go on ahead. Personally, dealing with a messed up money pit of an airline like Midwest makes me feel like a bottom feeder. I prefer the days when we flew only for legacy carriers that could afford to pay their bills. Now, we are stuck bailing out USAirways, keeping the Miwest name alive, and being stuck with the job of killing GO! Of course, we undercut everyone else so much that we can only afford to lend out about $90 million in cash this year alone. Who else, except Skywest, is so flush with cash that they can afford to help keep mainline carriers from shutting down and furloughing hundreds more? Let me tell you, you don't get that kind of spending money from being the cheapest product out there. RAH pilots get middle of the road pay (which was a step up from bottom tier pay prior to the 2003 contract we are still operating under), but our CEO does not charge our partner airlines based on pilot pay. Bedford has long made money off of the rates he charges our minaline partners. Case in point: when bedford agreed to fly some of our 145's for a 3% reduction in compensation, he never even ASKED for the pilots to reduce their wages accordingly. Bedford has been making bank by not being the cheapest for a long time. No one knows what the reimbursement rates are, and therefore you cannot make direct comparisons. But, could MESA or Expressjet afford to take a 3% cut in reimbursement without cutting labor costs?

Over the next 2 years, you will see RAH get more 190's for midwest. Who will own Midwest is anyone's guess. You may also see a handful of 190's out in Hawaii. Bedford has said he wants to be the number 2 airline out there. Not number one. RAH is not gunning for Hawaiian. However, the 190's won't grow beyond that.

And, let's not forget that some undisclosed US regional carrier has placed orders for the CRJ 1000. RAH is not the only player. It just so happens that our planes were available first. Planes of this size have been coming to the regionals for a while now. The only difference is that tangible proof has finally arrived. So go ahead, act all surprised and angry. You can hate RAH all you want, but that won't change a thing. The decisions that led to this moment were enacted years ago, and no one has been hiding the plan. Nearly half of you were still right seat in a Cessna when this ball got rolling. If you weren't here to stop this, then who was? You can thank ALPA for not representing the interests of their mainline pilots. You can thank ALPA and their mainline members for voting in favor of relaxing scope to the point that the 170 ever went to a regional airline (thanks, United). You can thank US Airways pilots for creating poor 170 wages via a B-scale even when those planes were on the mainline certificate! You can thank Midwest airlines' inept management for getting so far behind the ball that they have no choice but to contract out the future of their airline.

RAH is an opportunistic airline, no doubt. Bedford preys on the flaws of mainline contracts, and management shortfalls. That will not change. We the pilots are improving our contract. The representation and legal team that gave us the beauty of a CBA that we all bash has been forcefully removed and rejected by the Teamsters. This is a move we at RAH have been calling for since 2005. We pilots at RAH look bad because of way our Local treated us and the way they structured our contract. We are not lawyers, and it has taken year if bad experience to learn what we need in a contract. Until that process is complete, though, you all are just going to have to deal with it, same as us.

 

[Captain Morgan]

So, what exactly is the big deal about RAH flying 190's? Who is surprised by this?

RAH began flying the 170 almost 5 years ago now. The whole 170/175/190/195 is a common type aircraft. When US Airways bought A319's, were you shocked to then see them get A320's and A321's? Our CEO has made it known since day one that 190's are the end game. The writing has been on the wall longer than most of you have even been airline pilots.

Now, for pay. Someone earlier worried that the RAH payrates will lower the bar for JetBlue and USAirways when they renegotiate. Well, USAirways will not have a new contract for as long as the pilots continue to throw poo over the whole Nicoli award and seniority integration. The East pilots are intentionally putting off the opportunity to raise their pay and QOL because to do so would enact the binding airbitration they don't like. And, if and when they ever do stop acting like children, they will have to negotiate UP to RAH's captain pay for 99 seat aircraft (the USAirways 190's are configured for 99 seats). And, until recently, first year FO's at US Airways were making $26/hr. And they could even be on a 757/767 for that wage!!!!! Not to mention airlines like CAL that start you at $30/hr with no health care benefits...and we all know of some "lucky" co-workers at our regionals who went to CAL and got into the 757, 767, or even the 777 for that wage. JetBlue does have the best E190 pay out there. That is what happens when: A) a payscale for that particular plane in negotiated in advance of the type arriving (which RAH has not yet completed), and B) the rate is not agreed to by union pilots who all fly bigger airplanes and what to keep the money for themselves (ala US Airways).

JetBlue will not farm out flying to RAH. They contracted with ExpressJet while in an extreme pinch once, but that was on a very limited basis, and ExpressJet was willing to do anything to keep revenue coming in the door.

None of the mainline/legacy carriers will scope out the 190's. With the exception of DAL, arguable the best run legacy out there now, every major carrier has pilots on furlough. No one is going to give away 100 seat flying while there are furloughs. Even the clusterfrick known as United will hold that line. If they don't, you should be runnig with pitchforks at that pilot group.

RAH got 2 190's for an airline that will not even have its own aircraft by the end of 2010. Boeing is taking ALL of the Midwest 717's. Do you really think that Midwest sold its soul to RAH and then decided to give back 16 717's? Midwest could not afford its own fleet, and contracted with RAH because they had larger airplanes sitting around idle. Midwest was dying long before RAH came into the picture. Looking back at posts on this site, you will find plenty of evidence backing me up around the time Airtran was making a bid for Midwest. RAH did not kill Midwest or take their pilots' jobs. Those jobs were going to be lost anyway. I still don't feel good about it, and I have never flown a Midwest trip, but that is the reality. RAH will probably get more 190's for Midwest in 2010. The two announced were lease aircraft. RAH does not have any delivery slots until 2010 for E-jets, so leases will have to do until then. But, when 2010 rolls around, look for more. In 2010, Midwest will lose all of the remianing 717's. The loss of these planes caught Midwest management a bit off guard, and they had to do something to continue the brand. Why they want to continue the brand when they have evicerated it so badly to this point is beyond me. But, Midwest management wants the name to live on. With no planes to fly, and no chance of getting the capital to buy or lease anything else, they needed someone else to provide the larger lift. Enter RAH management, desperate to get 190's.

If you want to call RAH a bottom feeder, go on ahead. Personally, dealing with a messed up money pit of an airline like Midwest makes me feel like a bottom feeder. I prefer the days when we flew only for legacy carriers that could afford to pay their bills. Now, we are stuck bailing out USAirways, keeping the Miwest name alive, and being stuck with the job of killing GO! Of course, we undercut everyone else so much that we can only afford to lend out about $90 million in cash this year alone. Who else, except Skywest, is so flush with cash that they can afford to help keep mainline carriers from shutting down and furloughing hundreds more? Let me tell you, you don't get that kind of spending money from being the cheapest product out there. RAH pilots get middle of the road pay (which was a step up from bottom tier pay prior to the 2003 contract we are still operating under), but our CEO does not charge our partner airlines based on pilot pay. Bedford has long made money off of the rates he charges our minaline partners. Case in point: when bedford agreed to fly some of our 145's for a 3% reduction in compensation, he never even ASKED for the pilots to reduce their wages accordingly. Bedford has been making bank by not being the cheapest for a long time. No one knows what the reimbursement rates are, and therefore you cannot make direct comparisons. But, could MESA or Expressjet afford to take a 3% cut in reimbursement without cutting labor costs?

Over the next 2 years, you will see RAH get more 190's for midwest. Who will own Midwest is anyone's guess. You may also see a handful of 190's out in Hawaii. Bedford has said he wants to be the number 2 airline out there. Not number one. RAH is not gunning for Hawaiian. However, the 190's won't grow beyond that.

And, let's not forget that some undisclosed US regional carrier has placed orders for the CRJ 1000. RAH is not the only player. It just so happens that our planes were available first. Planes of this size have been coming to the regionals for a while now. The only difference is that tangible proof has finally arrived. So go ahead, act all surprised and angry. You can hate RAH all you want, but that won't change a thing. The decisions that led to this moment were enacted years ago, and no one has been hiding the plan. Nearly half of you were still right seat in a Cessna when this ball got rolling. If you weren't here to stop this, then who was? You can thank ALPA for not representing the interests of their mainline pilots. You can thank ALPA and their mainline members for voting in favor of relaxing scope to the point that the 170 ever went to a regional airline (thanks, United). You can thank US Airways pilots for creating poor 170 wages via a B-scale even when those planes were on the mainline certificate! You can thank Midwest airlines' inept management for getting so far behind the ball that they have no choice but to contract out the future of their airline.

RAH is an opportunistic airline, no doubt. Bedford preys on the flaws of mainline contracts, and management shortfalls. That will not change. We the pilots are improving our contract. The representation and legal team that gave us the beauty of a CBA that we all bash has been forcefully removed and rejected by the Teamsters. This is a move we at RAH have been calling for since 2005. We pilots at RAH look bad because of way our Local treated us and the way they structured our contract. We are not lawyers, and it has taken year if bad experience to learn what we need in a contract. Until that process is complete, though, you all are just going to have to deal with it, same as us.

Hear, hear! Excellent post!

 

[spiffomatic]

about the best summary of the situation I've seen posted...

worth reading.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Back in 2003, a Chataqua pilot stated on a hotel bus that you guys were "the whoars of the industry." You acknowledge that when you said that Bedford runs an opportunistic airline. Guilt by association, to what level is arguable, but it's obvious that too many in your ranks over the years were more concerned about a fast upgrade to a big airplane, then the overall ramifications. Whatever your union put forth, the membership still has a say and a vote. And if you weren't there before the vote, then you knew you were applying at an airline looking to take advantage at other's expense.

If some other airline started up with 10 bucks an hour maxing out at 20 bucks an hour for FOs and 40 bucks an hour for CAs to fly an Embraer 195 taking your jobs, you would be outraged. I think it's only fair that others see your ridiculous wages for that aircraft as short sighted and a result of one to many starry-eyed guppy killer mentality pilots who just wanted to skip ahead to major airline style flying.

 

[Minimaniac]

Back in 2003, a Chataqua pilot stated on a hotel bus that you guys were "the whoars of the industry." You acknowledge that when you said that Bedford runs an opportunistic airline.

"Whore" (Whoar in case the mods are censoring) does not equal opportunistic. While it is an attention grabbing word, like scab, it has no relevance in this conversation. There are high priced "whoars" and low priced "whoars", but in the end, we are all just selling our services. My post in no way endorses what that CHQ pilot said.

The RAH contract is middle of the road. Some airlines pay more, some less. Everyone, RAH pilots included, agrees that the pay rates as covered by the current contract are not adequate. That is why contracts have amendable dates. The 2003 CHQ contract was designed to last through 2007, and into 2008 for negotiations. In that 4-5 year life cycle, no FO hit the four year cap on pay unless they chose to NOT upgrade. Likewise, in that 4-5 year life cycle, no aircraft was brought onto property or annouced to be coming that had more than 99 seats. The contract covered everyone and every reasonably foreseen aircraft for its entire longevity. We at RAH have outlived our contract, but are bound to work under it until an acceptably improved contract is put forth. We have not accepted any proposals by the company, hence no new CBA. That, in the most basic way, shows that RAH pilots are not settling for less than we deserve.

Once you have been at the airlines long enough, you will begin to see how many factors are stacked up against the pilot group, and how slowly change comes about. Contracts don't change on a whim, and do not cater to the emotions of the pilot group at any point between the signing date and the end of the subsequent section 6 negotiations. Twice in a decade, our voices are heard. You yelling and ranting won't change that. Me yelling and ranting won't change that. Let the process work.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Back in 2003, a Chataqua pilot stated on a hotel bus that you guys were "the whoars of the industry." You acknowledge that when you said that Bedford runs an opportunistic airline. Guilt by association, to what level is arguable, but it's obvious that too many in your ranks over the years were more concerned about a fast upgrade to a big airplane, then the overall ramifications. Whatever your union put forth, the membership still has a say and a vote. And if you weren't there before the vote, then you knew you were applying at an airline looking to take advantage at other's expense.

If some other airline started up with 10 bucks an hour maxing out at 20 bucks an hour for FOs and 40 bucks an hour for CAs to fly an Embraer 195 taking your jobs, you would be outraged. I think it's only fair that others see your ridiculous wages for that aircraft as short sighted and a result of one to many starry-eyed guppy killer mentality pilots who just wanted to skip ahead to major airline style flying.

I think you need a squeek toy to take your anger out on. Let the gentlemen and women sort this out the right way. There are too many hotheaded people like you floating around here that don't know their a$$ from their elbow, but you just keep spewing your bull$hit.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

I think you need a squeek toy to take your anger out on. Let the gentlemen and women sort this out the right way. There are too many hotheaded people like you floating around here that don't know their a$$ from their elbow, but you just keep spewing your bull$hit.

Rational anger sometimes does lead to good things despite your beliefs in the matter. Obama trashes Las Vegas corporate travel a short while back, the mayor voices his anger, and whoa and behold, the president is visiting Las Vegas trying to make things right. Delta announces a merger with Northwest, signs a separate agreement with the Delta pilots first, the Northwest pilots voice anger at the situation, and bingo, a joint contract is agreed upon soon after.

A healthy dose of displeasure to the management team of Republic could at least perhaps move the process along quicker for the better in improving the work conditions and mutually helping out the entire industry.

 

[CX880]

Twice in a decade, our voices are heard. You yelling and ranting won't change that. Me yelling and ranting won't change that. Let the process work.

23 bucks an hour for 99 seat pay. Forget about CA pay, even as a 3rd year FO you'll still be making half of Midwest, flying more people on the 190 then on the 717. Yes it's working just fine. How do you guys like those shinny big planes? Your argument about the survival of Midwest has nothing to do with the issue. What will be the next excuse to replace mainline planes with regional pilots??

 

[CMI]

Why does Air Canada fly EMB 175's and 190's, but Air Canada Jazz does not?
Maybe they are not prostituting themselves like the US Regional Pilots are.
And don’t tell me that a company cannot pay their pilots more. Their would be no airline industry without pilots! Seems to me US regional pilots have a bad case of Coprophagia!

 

[Minimaniac]

23 bucks an hour for 99 seat pay. Forget about CA pay, even as a 3rd year FO you'll still be making half of Midwest, flying more people on the 190 then on the 717. Yes it's working just fine. How do you guys like those shinny big planes? Your argument about the survival of Midwest has nothing to do with the issue. What will be the next excuse to replace mainline planes with regional pilots??

1. No one at RAH has flown a 99 seat airplane for $23/hr.

2. By the time the 190 shows up at RAH, no one will be making $23/hr anymore.

3. Midwest chose to fly the 717 at far less than capacity. Compare the potential load of the 717 with the 190 as operated by RAH for a true comparison.

4. The system is working fine. We are in section 6 negotiations. Our union is now charged with establishing a payscale for 100 or more seats. Our union has declared that they will not accept the current FO pay scale as acceptable for the 190 since that type was not on property when the CBA was signed. Again, the system is working. It is not fast, but it is what the law allows. We are a nation of laws.

5. I don't know if I like those shiny big planes. They have not arrived yet. I have not flown them for a subpar, on par, or above par pay rate yet.

6. In this particular case, my argument about the survival of Midwest has everything to do with the issue. The impending disappearance of Midwest "mainline" aircraft is the sole reason RAH has the opportunity to fly the
190.

7. I never made an excuse for a pilot to replace an airplane. That is impossible.

 

[Minimaniac]

Why does Air Canada fly EMB 175's and 190's, but Air Canada Jazz does not?
Maybe they are not prostituting themselves like the US Regional Pilots are.
And don’t tell me that a company cannot pay their pilots more. Their would be no airline industry without pilots! Seems to me US regional pilots have a bad case of Coprophagia!

Could it be that, through the help of government subsidies, Air Canada has been financially able to purchase E175 and E190 aircraft? The US legacy carriers made a choice to use their available funds and lines of credit to purchase widebody 777's, A330's, A340s; to purchase yet unproven A350's and 787's; and to purchase narrow body 737NG's and various narrow body Airbus products. The US majors chose to purchase aircraft with capacity over 150 passengers. They made a decision to not buy smaller jets. Most of these purchases by the US companies have been deferred because of weak cash positions. If the US government offered to help buy large RJ's for the US legacies, I bet you would see these offensive airplanes on mainline properties. That is, until US Airways needs to raise some cash and sells the fleet off again.

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, been reading this for a while, and you know what? Had the MidEx pilots not accepted and ratified a contract with NO SCOPE language, we would not even be reading this thread.

In the end, it falls on the MEC and its membership. There is ALWAYS a company out there which can do the same job for less money...and this is a perfect example of what happens when you do not have the leadership with the knowledge-base to adequately protect the group!

Quit blaming RAH and look at your own MEC, and the contract they put in front of you.

I can guarantee you there that everyone on the MidEx list was on-property when that contract was put in front of them!

Next!