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Usapa lost!!!!!!!!!

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In the meantime, the remedy and eventual compensatory damages will stand pending appeal. So basically we're in darned good shape while USAPA pursues an expensive and likely fruitless endeavor. The fun continues.

I know this is dangerous territory with you but here goes. What happens next? Everything in this case goes the way of the west, then what. The problem is still there. The East will be better off financially by never agreeing to a contrtact, thus keeping it seperate. I know that sounds nutty but no contract is going to have a sufficient raise in it to cover the lack of potential upgrades the nic will cause the east. If the emotions are left on the sidelines this is still a major stumbling block to any agreement.
 
Pilots on the East that have upgradesd or bypassed will realize that the fight is over and accept the pay raise and added work rules and vacation. The angry F/O club will turn their anger towards their fellow East pilots who have lost so much in the last 4 years in a fruitless chance for what they deemed injustice! Be glad you have a job, I am!
 
Pilots on the East that have upgradesd or bypassed will realize that the fight is over and accept the pay raise and added work rules and vacation. The angry F/O club will turn their anger towards their fellow East pilots who have lost so much in the last 4 years in a fruitless chance for what they deemed injustice! Be glad you have a job, I am!

I don't work for USAir but I don't see the USAir East side fragmenting just as I don't see the West side fragmenting so again that company seems to be stuck. How will winning, or losing that lawsuit (pending on your "geographical location,") get things moving.
 
Everything in this case goes the way of the west, then what.
The worst case scenario injuction from the judge is he puts us right back to where we were two years ago. After all, that's the injunction we filed for in the first place.
The problem is still there.
You mean the problem the East created by withdrawing from joint contract negotiations two years ago? They can sleep in the bed they created.
The East will be better off financially by never agreeing to a contrtact, thus keeping it seperate.
What fuzzy math are you using? Had we gotten a contract when the company was profitable they'd be making tens of thousands of dollars more per year than now.
I know that sounds nutty but no contract is going to have a sufficient raise in it to cover the lack of potential upgrades the nic will cause the east.
If nothing else changes you're correct. Betcha the tune would change if LAS/PHX flying increased and CLT/PHL flying decreased. Gotta think long term. My guess is the status quo will not last so long and eventually reality will set in. It's worth the wait.
If the emotions are left on the sidelines this is still a major stumbling block to any agreement.
Emotions are irrelevent. Sticking to agreements isn't emotional. Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is emotional. Methinks the emotional issues reside on the East. But hey, at least they didn't activate their CIRP this time.
 
I agree with some of your statements. The "fuzzy math" I was using is directly related to the upgrade potential on the East. That being said anything is possible in this business and the CLT/PHL flying could decrease and PHX increase, who knows??

What's worth the wait, you lost me there. I see a company, much like us at UAL ripping itself apart from the inside out. Our fight is with an incompatent management while USAir's is with each other, In the end the winner is......everyone else.

I understand they turned their back on an agreement. Contracts are broken everyday.
 
Why would they activat their CIRP this time? They are winning, just ask one of em, after all they are getting the straight scoop straight from the best lawyer on the planet.
 
FDJ2 -

I understand your point - I just question when you say the "Nic" will ultimately be implemented, (in the current form) with or without a joint CBA? From my understanding - in order for us to combine flight operations as defined in the Transition Agreement - we must have and approve a joint CBA? Without a joint CBA - we remain separate operations.

The courts can by-pass that "impasse" and order the Nic to be implemented for furloughs and advancement opportunities before there is a joint CBA. It's been done before.

The courts will not reargue the merits of the Nicolau award. Whether you think attrition should have been given more weight or fences should have been taller is not relavent. What is relevant is that both sides were bound by a process which ended in Nicolau making a final and binding determination.
 
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I know this is dangerous territory with you but here goes. What happens next? Everything in this case goes the way of the west, then what. The problem is still there. The East will be better off financially by never agreeing to a contrtact, thus keeping it seperate. I know that sounds nutty but no contract is going to have a sufficient raise in it to cover the lack of potential upgrades the nic will cause the east. If the emotions are left on the sidelines this is still a major stumbling block to any agreement.

I feel the same way, and it's why many on the west consider it only a symbolic victory at this time. I wouldn't doubt that this very scenario has played through Judge Wake's mind many times. I hope that when he rules on remedies, he figures out a way to break the impasse you refer to.

How about this: The Judge knows that he can't impose a CBA on both parties, but he can and should make it expensive for the east to stonewall a single CBA. He could craft a solution where west F/Os will receive Capt pay when the first east pilot junior to them on the Nic upgrades. The difference in pay, of course, will not be paid by the company, but by USAPA through assessments.

No, come to think of it, I don't want west pilots who've joined USAPA to get the bill, and I don't think we could trust the rat bastards to pay the assessment anyway. Let's put the $70 million LOA 93 "snapback" into an escrow fund to pay for the above remedy. Git 'R Done!
 
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BOSTON DOMICILE UPDATE
May 20, 2009


CONFERENCE CALL
The BPR participated in a conference call on the 18th for 3 hours. The main topic discussed was a legal update from our attorneys, Lee Seham and Jim Brengle. Attorney Seham spoke at great length as to the background of the trial, the reasons for the outcome and our options going forward. We have all read the instructions to the jury. We all see how the scope of what they were allowed to “see” and consider was tightly controlled by the judge.

Our attorneys have a vast amount of experience and all stated they have never seen such a hostile venue as this. We believe the outcome was never in doubt from the first day. Suffice it to say USAPA was excluded right out of the building.

But (as the Dylan tune goes) Things Have Changed.

There will be a guaranteed appeal (sorry to the web board knights and their 5% rule) to the 9th Circuit. On the 18th the BPR voted 11-3 on a resolution to continue our quest to ensure the rights of all US Airways pilots. The 3-judge panel will look at all the evidence, rulings, exclusions, etc., etc. They will be looking at things the jury never got a chance to see. They will be looking at the judge’s extraordinary behavior during the trial. And they will be looking at the one thing that we believe was ignored: the law!

The Plaintiffs did an excellent job of turning a DFR lawsuit into a commercial contract lawsuit. They did an excellent job of confusing a judge with limited experience in both the Railway Labor Act and labor law in general.

The costs of litigation will be dropping substantially as the appeal process is reasonably low cost: no depositions etc.
Please check out the CLT update for further information. There will be a lot of info coming out. The web boards are getting rather comical and should be treated as nothing but a form of entertainment.


CHARLOTTE DOMICILE MEETING NOTICE
May 20, 2009

DFR Lawsuit
As the dust settles from the decision rendered on May 12 in a Phoenix courtroom, we all need to put into prospective what this means to all US Airways pilots. Under the “guise” of a Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) claim, we traveled into an unfriendly courtroom in the Plaintiffs’ hometown. From all we have read, seen and heard, this case was litigated by what appears to be a hostile and biased judge. As the case played out in Federal District Court, the Judge appeared to interject constant moving targets for the USAPA attorneys right up to the final jury instructions, which we believe directed a guilty verdict.
DFR is plainly defined by the Supreme Court as needing any one of the following three definitions:
  • Arbitrary (e.g., a union refuses to pursue your grievance without reason); Discriminatory (e.g., a union refuses to pursue the grievances of all of its non-white workers);
  • Bad faith (e.g., a union official fails to respond to your complaint just because he/she doesn’t like you).
Generally the courts have taken a deferential approach to reviewing unions' decisions challenged as a breach of their duty of fair representation. Recognizing that the collective bargaining process typically requires compromises, which may favor some workers at the expense of others, the courts have held that a union only breaches its duty if it acts arbitrarily, in bad faith or discriminatorily. Practical considerations have also led the courts to refuse to second-guess unions' decisions: if a court or jury could substitute its judgment as to whether a particular grievance had merit, then unions could not function, since their decisions would rarely be final in any practical sense. Accordingly, the courts have refused to overturn union decisions as arbitrary so long as they were based on a reasoned decision by the union, even if the court might believe that this decision was wrong.
We encourage you to read for yourselves the transcripts of the trial to fully understand the events and the obstacles that we faced. It is our opinion that the Court directed the jury to the third leg of the stool, “bad faith,” but refused to define the terms under labor law. This left a vague contract law interpretation and definition that we believe directed the jury to the guilty verdict. We use the word “guise” of a DFR case, as it is our opinion that under labor law none of the three terms listed above were in fact proven. We believe that confusion between the labor law and the contract law definition of the term “bad faith” became the focus to the jury. The argument of “final and binding”, taken from the ALPA Constitution and merger procedures, was interjected into this trial by the plaintiffs, and the final argument of “a deal is a deal” was the ultimate focus of this court. We were not allowed to address nor defend these issues due to the orders by the judge that in our opinion ultimately led the jury to the guilty verdict.
What Next?
The question now becomes where we go from here; what path do we take? The appeal process will take us to San Francisco, where there will be a thorough review of the case procedures, rulings and labor law as it was applied in the Arizona Court. This Appeal is automatic!!! There is no 5% rule on whether this case will be heard at the Appellate Level; it is 100% guaranteed by the law. It is our opinion that previous DFR and labor cases provide grounds to overturn the lower court. This opinion is shared by our legal team, and they assure us that in Appeals Court cases, the law will be the standard, and the law will prevail. Previous case histories and court rulings weigh heavily in our favor regarding past practices and decisions of the Supreme, as well as the Federal Appeals, Court system. The question that we need to ask is how do we escape the tentacles of ALPA merger policy in our efforts to correct a flawed arbitrator’s decision? The “final and binding” argument that prevailed in the lower court was, in our opinion, removed from the context of contract law and improperly interjected into Railway Labor Law. The Supreme Court rulings support our case and our rights as a collective bargaining agent to negotiate in good faith for all our pilots for the greater good of the group. Those rights are guaranteed under the law, and our objective of fair and reasonableness have never been compromised by your union leaders or BPR.
We all need to ask ourselves, after reviewing the integrated positions of our pilots on the Nicolau list, how much is it worth to this pilot group to allow the insertion of pilots that were born in the 1980s amongst our never-been-furloughed 1988-hired pilots who were born in the 1950s? As pilots for US Airways, we have all suffered through the perils of this industry and lived through the raised and lowered expectations of our airline. There is a group of our Charlotte-based pilots, now averaging age 55, that will forever be banished from becoming a Captain at US Airways while a 26-year-old hired in 2004 moves in to that seat. That, in short, is the Nicolau.
The righteous cause and path we are on has no price tag in our opinion. There is no way that your Charlotte Reps will compromise your seniority, not at any price nor dollar value. As long as we are in office, we will pursue every legal process available to protect your career, all the way to the United States Supreme Court, if necessary. We will never forget that “Seniority Matters,” and the calls for compromising a Nicolau solution will not be an option as long as we are your representatives.
To clearly state our position, pursuing a remedy that compromises your seniority is not an option, not for any price. Simply put, if this group chooses an alternate path other than a fair integration of seniority for a few bucks in their pockets, you will have to elect new representatives to do this. In our minds, this self-serving thinking equates to nothing less than selling out our 6 to 25-year experienced pilots. These pilots have been our stick buddies for our entire career; to sell them out to the bottom of a seniority list for life is unconscionable. You only have to look as far as Minneapolis and Detroit to see the ramifications of selling out your seniority for a paycheck, as the Northwest Pilots’ current plight is being recognized with announced cutbacks and fleet reductions. This battle is not about the money; this battle is about what is fair and equitable and is truly a righteous cause. We must focus on our goals, and they are achievable. Labor and case law are on our side! Nobody said this was going to be easy, and yes, we all knew there would be setbacks along the way. Fortitude and resolve are required in any successful campaign, and we are on this train to the end of the process. These challenges are not for the faint of heart, and our committed goals as a union remain unraveled as we progress through the process of retaining the returns of our sacrifices that saved this company. Not one of us should ever consider trading those sacrifices at the expense of others for any dollar amount. “Our Seniority is not for sale.”


I guess everybody got it wrong, USAPA is always the victim. Short on facts but entertaining anyway. Paranoid of the web boards are we?

How about naming West pilots born in the 1980's. Can't seem to find any.

I'm still waiting for my Phoenix update.
 
I feel the same way, and it's why many on the west consider it only a symbolic victory at this time. I wouldn't doubt that this very scenario has played through Judge Wake's mind many times. I hope that when he rules on remedies, he figures out a way to break the impasse you refer to.

How about this: The Judge knows that he can't impose a CBA on both parties, but he can and should make it expensive for the east to stonewall a single CBA. He could craft a solution where west F/Os will receive Capt pay when the first east pilot junior to them on the Nic upgrades. The difference in pay, of course, will not be paid by the company, but by USAPA through assessments.

No, come to think of it, I don't want west pilots who've joined USAPA to get the bill, and I don't think we could trust the rat bastards to pay the assessment anyway. Let's put the $70 million LOA 93 "snapback" into an escrow fund to pay for the above remedy. Git 'R Done!


OK -

Now I have to draw the line (because I know your joking) - $70 million LOA 93 "snapback" into an escrow account???????????

Why don't we just payroll deduct the profit sharing (from west pilots) that ALL pilots got the year before which was part of LOA 93 and negotiated by the east to pay for your hypothetical remedy? (Now I am joking).

Metrojet
 
I can't believe the dipstick easties that think the appeals court will let them show more of their bull******************** data. I think they've gotten brain damage from beating their heads againts the wall so many times.



No they don't. Gotta have a brain first before any of that could occur ...

PHXFLYR:cool:

Proud non-member
 
[/I][/B]

Originally Posted by vetrider
I can't believe the dipstick easties that think the appeals court will let them show more of their bull******************** data. I think they've gotten brain damage from beating their heads againts the wall so many times.



No they don't. Gotta have a brain first before any of that could occur ...

PHXFLYR:cool:

Proud non-member


Gosh, I think you guys missed your callings. I thinkin' Tonight Show writers, maybe Late Night with DL.

I mean really....Family Guy's got nothing on you two and your shtick. Must be non-stop giggles at the dinner table. Impressive stuff.
 
Gosh, I think you guys missed your callings. I thinkin' Tonight Show writers, maybe Late Night with DL.

I mean really....Family Guy's got nothing on you two and your shtick. Must be non-stop giggles at the dinner table. Impressive stuff.

I meant it literally.
 
It is obvious that the Nic award was a huge windfall for the AW pilots. Why else would SO much time, money, and energy be spent on implementing it intact. The west knows whats in the tea leaves. US Airways will retreat back east, as it has done in the past. Only base closures, mass furloughs, and displacements will be left in its wake.
The west guys know the Nic award is the ONLY life boat on the deck, and they're not about to let it go.


Windfall for the West? Sorry Dude the NIC is No windfall for the West!

The average West pilot lost relative standing (2 to 3%).

The West IS relieved that the EAST DID NOT get DOH and therefore allow the East to screww the west and get themselves a windfall.

The West is relieved they did not get screwed by the NIC

The East is angry that the NIC DID NOT screw the West to the East's benefit.

The East really wanted to screw the West.

The Judge and Jury spoke and said NO!

NOW the East is angry that ALPA, NIC, The Jury, would not let them SCREW the WEST.


The West simply want's to hold on to what it had,

The East want's to recapture what they lost premerger (since 1990) at the expense of the West. That's the ONLY REASON they are pushing DOH.
It ain't going to happen!
 
The West simply want's to hold on to what it had,
That is such BS, and I can prove it.

So you only want what you had huh?
OK how about a fence 10, 20 years high in which time an East pilot can NEVER bid to a West position? At the same time West can bid East using DOH unrestricted.

Sit back and watch the back peddling.
 
So you only want what you had huh?

My life was just fine prior to Parker aquiring us air. You brought nothing to the table except furloughs.

Thanks for asking.
 
That is such BS, and I can prove it.

So you only want what you had huh?
OK how about a fence 10, 20 years high in which time an East pilot can NEVER bid to a West position? At the same time West can bid East using DOH unrestricted.

Sit back and watch the back peddling.

Fences don't work, they assume a static industry, things change.


What is so hard for you to understand? If you were in the 50% seniority range before the merger you should be about 50% after the merger.


A mid senority East guy before the merger should be a mid seniorty guy after the merger.

A upper senoirty West guy before the merger should be a upper seniorty guy after the merger.

A Lower senority East guy before the merger should be a Lower seniorty guy after the merger.


But nooooo!!, somehow this Lower senioirty East guy thinks he's entitled to be a mid seniorty guy after the merger. This is where the problem lies, always has.


Let me guess? you are a lower seniority East guy looking for a windfall?
 
OK how about a fence 10, 20 years high in which time an East pilot can NEVER bid to a West position?
Are you still trying to argue seniority integration? Dude, that's so 2007. If you wanted fences you should've had your merger committee argue for it. Oops, you say that happened already and you agreed to binding arbitration? Well, then it's over. The Nicolau list is the new reality and that's all the West wants and yes, we're entitled to it.
 
Are you still trying to argue seniority integration? Dude, that's so 2007. If you wanted fences you should've had your merger committee argue for it. Oops, you say that happened already and you agreed to binding arbitration? Well, then it's over. The Nicolau list is the new reality and that's all the West wants and yes, we're entitled to it.

He is right. The time to argue about the seniority list ended the minute the Nic award came out. It really doesn't matter what the award said. The east pilots agreed to arbitration and they agreed to live with the result. That should be the end of it. The east pilots are acting like a bunch of spoiled children.
 
My life was just fine prior to Parker aquiring us air. You brought nothing to the table except furloughs.

Thanks for asking.
Oh I forgot, The AWE was hiring in 05, and everyone knows that if that was the case, that would continue for ever. I do remember seeing a documentary on the discovery channel about the little known fact of how the economy has no effect to an airline based only in PHX. It also went on to explain that if upgrades were happening in 3 to 5 years that would also hold true for ever. Very interesting.

So I am very sorry I simply forgot I saw that episode.
 
I said I could prove it is not really about "we only want what we had"

What you are conveniently choosing to ignore is that the time for the argument that you are making, and it's not an unreasonable one IMO, was prior to the arbitration. Instead your delusional "leadership" went for the whole enchilada even after Nicolau did everything but paint a picture to indicate that he wasn't going to buy the DOH proposal. There is zero doubt in my mind that from day one the east figured that outnumbering the West by 2:1 would enable them to rescue their failed careers at Cactus' expense. You knew that winning the arbitration was a longshot; your fatal miscalculation was believing that you'd get another chance to trade pesos for dollars and convert useless longevity into seniority.
 
This is all a distraction from the real issue: At the time of the merger US Airways was roughly half the size it was in 1989. This is why Nic. came down the way it did, and would have in a merger with pretty near any other carrier. The fabled 20-year F/O's we keep hearing about today got that way because usair imploded.
 
This is all a distraction from the real issue: At the time of the merger US Airways was roughly half the size it was in 1989. This is why Nic. came down the way it did, and would have in a merger with pretty near any other carrier. The fabled 20-year F/O's we keep hearing about today got that way because usair imploded.

Well, USair is not alone. Lets look at ATA, United, American, Midwest Express, Aloha, TWA and Delta. There are many more to list. Most are half their size and no longer have a pension. Some of them are gone. Its not only USAIR that have taken so many cuts.

I guess one of the few real strong carrier would have been AWA. They were a powerhouse back in 2005. And without the merger with USAIRWAYS, they would still be upgrading and would be flying 330's to Europe. I feel bad for all those AWA pilots that are working under the best contract they ever had.

M
 
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Did any of them furlough back to '88? Do any of them today, have 20-year narrowbody F/O's; that's all they can hold?

The condition of AWA isn't the issue - usair would have had an ugly sen. integration with anybody.
 
The condition of AWA isn't the issue - usair would have had an ugly sen. integration with anybody.

True story. They would have taken that ridiculous sense of entitlement with them no matter where they went.
 

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