Usapa lost!!!!!!!!!

[Thebadcat1313]

FDJ2 -

I understand your point - I just question when you say the "Nic" will ultimately be implemented, (in the current form) with or without a joint CBA? From my understanding - in order for us to combine flight operations as defined in the Transition Agreement - we must have and approve a joint CBA? Without a joint CBA - we remain separate operations.

On another point - and I do not mean to inflame - as it relates to the term "final and binding" - have you ever heard of a criminal decision being overturned when evidence surfaces to prove that the original conviction is wrong (DNA etc). Without a fence to protect what each group brought to the merger of the corporations - The Nic in its current form doesn't address the east "attrition" or the west being invaded by the 517. Judge Wake did not allow the jury to hear any testimony about DOH with conditions and restrictions. Would an Appeal Judge allow this? I do not know for sure - but I do know this is costing US (East & West) a lot of money in legal fees and lost dollars in pay if we had a joint contract. That is why I say at this time it is critical for both sides to negotiate rather than litigate.

Metrojet

Are you kidding? Judge Wake and the jury heard hours and hours of testimony about DOH with conditions and restrictions. They heard about it ad nauseum. They were not impressed.

 

[Prog 2/2]

On another point - and I do not mean to inflame - as it relates to the term "final and binding" - have you ever heard of a criminal decision being overturned when evidence surfaces to prove that the original conviction is wrong (DNA etc). Without a fence to protect what each group brought to the merger of the corporations - The Nic in its current form doesn't address the east "attrition" or the west being invaded by the 517. Judge Wake did not allow the jury to hear any testimony about DOH with conditions and restrictions. Would an Appeal Judge allow this?

You guys really aren't getting this, are you?

The Nicolau list was the end result of a vetted, agreed upon process within the famework of ALPA merger policy.

It's the combined list. Period. That part of the story is over.

The Addington trial was not about the combined list, how it was arrived at, or whether it conformed to what you believe was "fair and equitable". That was all taken care of in the process that resulted in the Nicolau Award and absent any proof of fraud or malfeasance, the award will stand.

The jury disregarded the testimony about "DOH" because that was not the question before the court, and it will not be the focus of any appelate review. The validity of the list is not at issue as a matter of law.

USAPA was found in federal court to have breached their duty of fair representation to the plaintiffs because they attempted to circumvent the results of the agreed to arbitration process in a matter that was injurious to the west.

at this time it is critical for both sides to negotiate rather than litigate.
Metrojet

Nope.

That time was 2 years ago.

We negotiated.

We mediated.

We arbitrated.

Now the only avenue left open to us to get you to abide by your agreements is thru the courts.

 

[vetrider]

I can't believe the dipstick easties that think the appeals court will let them show more of their bull******************** data. I think they've gotten brain damage from beating their heads againts the wall so many times.

 

[flybywire]

Denny
You are correct that it is up to each individual person if they are a member. What I was trying to remember was the term closed shop I believe? You still are required to pay dues it is just less than the dues for membership.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Originally Posted by FlyUnder
"This is absolutely nothing compared to what is coming down the road. AWA pilots are dreaming of their windfall and have absolutely no concept of the powder keg that is set to go off.

Do you really think you are going to ride into town and steal our jobs? Good luck - you are going to need it."

Flyunder

Thank god I'm a bystander here. But, East pilots would have a LOT more sympathy if 1). They accepted what they agreed upon (binding arbitration), 2) the were part of the ACQUIRING company and, 3). They were not, yet again, a day away from applying at Walmart.

Many years ago, a certain company had considered aquiring another - except they didn't want ALL the planes NOR the poisonous attitude that would have come from many in the other pilot group. In the end, one company sank, putting those guys on the street while the other company acquired only the airplanes they needed and interviewed only pilots they wanted. In hindsight, this appears to have been a good move.

 

[denny]

Denny
You are correct that it is up to each individual person if they are a member. What I was trying to remember was the term closed shop I believe? You still are required to pay dues it is just less than the dues for membership.

Closed shop means you are required to join the union in order to get and keep a job. Airlines are open shop meaning you do not have to join the union. You do have to pay agency fees which are essentially the going dues rate. You can also file as an objector and pay a reduced rate fee which covers the direct representation costs.

Despite the fractious nature of USAPA and its questionable practices many west pilots are joining in order to help steer the union in a different direction. There are many issues before the membership that, with west votes, would take the union in a radically different direction. Namely away from the cliff!

 

[TWA Dude]

Airlines are open shop meaning you do not have to join the union. You do have to pay agency fees which are essentially the going dues rate.

Actually, what you describe is termed Agency Shop. An Open Shop requires neither joining nor dues/fees. There are no more open shop airlines for US pilots. AA was the last and they went agency shop in 2003 to get money from the TWA pilots who didn't join.

 

[glasspilot1]

Hey Dude:

Does USAPA have any legal way to appeal? If so, when may it happen?

Glass

 

[Bringupthebird]

What's more likely to happen; The west gets shut down overnight precipitating an exodus to the east, or gradual regrowth of both sides of the operation with advancement opportunities in both east and west bases? Once you've answered that, decide whether or not you should put all your effort into preparing for the first, including rejecting a major pay increase OR should you put your efforts into building a better contract for both sides and leave the boogeyman to Cleary and his fear-mongerers.

Remember, without a fight on his hands, Cleary and USAPA is irrelevant.

 

[TWA Dude]

Does USAPA have any legal way to appeal? If so, when may it happen?

The judge will issue a remedy (injunction) by the end of June. At that point USAPA will appeal. Points of fact: they cannot appeal the finding of the jury, only the judges applications of law in the form of inclusion/exclusion of evidence, sustaining/overriding objections, and the instructions to the jury. Basically, they're going to argue that their attorney knows the law better than Judge Wake. The Appellate Court will first decide whether to take the case or not. If they don't, it's over. If they take it they may find for us and make the case a firm precedent or worst-case scenario they could send it back to Judge Wake for a retrial. Only 4% of cases in the 9th Circuit are successful.

In the meantime, the remedy and eventual compensatory damages will stand pending appeal. So basically we're in darned good shape while USAPA pursues an expensive and likely fruitless endeavor. The fun continues.

 

[eaglesview]

In the meantime, the remedy and eventual compensatory damages will stand pending appeal. So basically we're in darned good shape while USAPA pursues an expensive and likely fruitless endeavor. The fun continues.

I know this is dangerous territory with you but here goes. What happens next? Everything in this case goes the way of the west, then what. The problem is still there. The East will be better off financially by never agreeing to a contrtact, thus keeping it seperate. I know that sounds nutty but no contract is going to have a sufficient raise in it to cover the lack of potential upgrades the nic will cause the east. If the emotions are left on the sidelines this is still a major stumbling block to any agreement.

 

[Carl S.]

Pilots on the East that have upgradesd or bypassed will realize that the fight is over and accept the pay raise and added work rules and vacation. The angry F/O club will turn their anger towards their fellow East pilots who have lost so much in the last 4 years in a fruitless chance for what they deemed injustice! Be glad you have a job, I am!

 

[eaglesview]

Pilots on the East that have upgradesd or bypassed will realize that the fight is over and accept the pay raise and added work rules and vacation. The angry F/O club will turn their anger towards their fellow East pilots who have lost so much in the last 4 years in a fruitless chance for what they deemed injustice! Be glad you have a job, I am!

I don't work for USAir but I don't see the USAir East side fragmenting just as I don't see the West side fragmenting so again that company seems to be stuck. How will winning, or losing that lawsuit (pending on your "geographical location,") get things moving.

 

[TWA Dude]

Everything in this case goes the way of the west, then what.

The worst case scenario injuction from the judge is he puts us right back to where we were two years ago. After all, that's the injunction we filed for in the first place.

The problem is still there.

You mean the problem the East created by withdrawing from joint contract negotiations two years ago? They can sleep in the bed they created.

The East will be better off financially by never agreeing to a contrtact, thus keeping it seperate.

What fuzzy math are you using? Had we gotten a contract when the company was profitable they'd be making tens of thousands of dollars more per year than now.

I know that sounds nutty but no contract is going to have a sufficient raise in it to cover the lack of potential upgrades the nic will cause the east.

If nothing else changes you're correct. Betcha the tune would change if LAS/PHX flying increased and CLT/PHL flying decreased. Gotta think long term. My guess is the status quo will not last so long and eventually reality will set in. It's worth the wait.

If the emotions are left on the sidelines this is still a major stumbling block to any agreement.

Emotions are irrelevent. Sticking to agreements isn't emotional. Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is emotional. Methinks the emotional issues reside on the East. But hey, at least they didn't activate their CIRP this time.

 

[eaglesview]

I agree with some of your statements. The "fuzzy math" I was using is directly related to the upgrade potential on the East. That being said anything is possible in this business and the CLT/PHL flying could decrease and PHX increase, who knows??

What's worth the wait, you lost me there. I see a company, much like us at UAL ripping itself apart from the inside out. Our fight is with an incompatent management while USAir's is with each other, In the end the winner is......everyone else.

I understand they turned their back on an agreement. Contracts are broken everyday.

 

[vetrider]

Why would they activat their CIRP this time? They are winning, just ask one of em, after all they are getting the straight scoop straight from the best lawyer on the planet.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2 -

I understand your point - I just question when you say the "Nic" will ultimately be implemented, (in the current form) with or without a joint CBA? From my understanding - in order for us to combine flight operations as defined in the Transition Agreement - we must have and approve a joint CBA? Without a joint CBA - we remain separate operations.

The courts can by-pass that "impasse" and order the Nic to be implemented for furloughs and advancement opportunities before there is a joint CBA. It's been done before.

The courts will not reargue the merits of the Nicolau award. Whether you think attrition should have been given more weight or fences should have been taller is not relavent. What is relevant is that both sides were bound by a process which ended in Nicolau making a final and binding determination.

 

[UALjan15]

I know this is dangerous territory with you but here goes. What happens next? Everything in this case goes the way of the west, then what. The problem is still there. The East will be better off financially by never agreeing to a contrtact, thus keeping it seperate. I know that sounds nutty but no contract is going to have a sufficient raise in it to cover the lack of potential upgrades the nic will cause the east. If the emotions are left on the sidelines this is still a major stumbling block to any agreement.

I feel the same way, and it's why many on the west consider it only a symbolic victory at this time. I wouldn't doubt that this very scenario has played through Judge Wake's mind many times. I hope that when he rules on remedies, he figures out a way to break the impasse you refer to.

How about this: The Judge knows that he can't impose a CBA on both parties, but he can and should make it expensive for the east to stonewall a single CBA. He could craft a solution where west F/Os will receive Capt pay when the first east pilot junior to them on the Nic upgrades. The difference in pay, of course, will not be paid by the company, but by USAPA through assessments.

No, come to think of it, I don't want west pilots who've joined USAPA to get the bill, and I don't think we could trust the rat bastards to pay the assessment anyway. Let's put the $70 million LOA 93 "snapback" into an escrow fund to pay for the above remedy. Git 'R Done!

 

[Cowboy75]

BOSTON DOMICILE UPDATE
May 20, 2009​

CONFERENCE CALL​

The BPR participated in a conference call on the 18th for 3 hours. The main topic discussed was a legal update from our attorneys, Lee Seham and Jim Brengle. Attorney Seham spoke at great length as to the background of the trial, the reasons for the outcome and our options going forward. We have all read the instructions to the jury. We all see how the scope of what they were allowed to “see” and consider was tightly controlled by the judge.

Our attorneys have a vast amount of experience and all stated they have never seen such a hostile venue as this. We believe the outcome was never in doubt from the first day. Suffice it to say USAPA was excluded right out of the building.

But (as the Dylan tune goes) Things Have Changed.

There will be a guaranteed appeal (sorry to the web board knights and their 5% rule) to the 9th Circuit. On the 18th the BPR voted 11-3 on a resolution to continue our quest to ensure the rights of all US Airways pilots. The 3-judge panel will look at all the evidence, rulings, exclusions, etc., etc. They will be looking at things the jury never got a chance to see. They will be looking at the judge’s extraordinary behavior during the trial. And they will be looking at the one thing that we believe was ignored: the law!

The Plaintiffs did an excellent job of turning a DFR lawsuit into a commercial contract lawsuit. They did an excellent job of confusing a judge with limited experience in both the Railway Labor Act and labor law in general.

The costs of litigation will be dropping substantially as the appeal process is reasonably low cost: no depositions etc.
Please check out the CLT update for further information. There will be a lot of info coming out. The web boards are getting rather comical and should be treated as nothing but a form of entertainment.

CHARLOTTE DOMICILE MEETING NOTICE
May 20, 2009​

DFR Lawsuit
As the dust settles from the decision rendered on May 12 in a Phoenix courtroom, we all need to put into prospective what this means to all US Airways pilots. Under the “guise” of a Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) claim, we traveled into an unfriendly courtroom in the Plaintiffs’ hometown. From all we have read, seen and heard, this case was litigated by what appears to be a hostile and biased judge. As the case played out in Federal District Court, the Judge appeared to interject constant moving targets for the USAPA attorneys right up to the final jury instructions, which we believe directed a guilty verdict.
DFR is plainly defined by the Supreme Court as needing any one of the following three definitions:

• Arbitrary (e.g., a union refuses to pursue your grievance without reason); Discriminatory (e.g., a union refuses to pursue the grievances of all of its non-white workers);
• Bad faith (e.g., a union official fails to respond to your complaint just because he/she doesn’t like you).

Generally the courts have taken a deferential approach to reviewing unions' decisions challenged as a breach of their duty of fair representation. Recognizing that the collective bargaining process typically requires compromises, which may favor some workers at the expense of others, the courts have held that a union only breaches its duty if it acts arbitrarily, in bad faith or discriminatorily. Practical considerations have also led the courts to refuse to second-guess unions' decisions: if a court or jury could substitute its judgment as to whether a particular grievance had merit, then unions could not function, since their decisions would rarely be final in any practical sense. Accordingly, the courts have refused to overturn union decisions as arbitrary so long as they were based on a reasoned decision by the union, even if the court might believe that this decision was wrong.
We encourage you to read for yourselves the transcripts of the trial to fully understand the events and the obstacles that we faced. It is our opinion that the Court directed the jury to the third leg of the stool, “bad faith,” but refused to define the terms under labor law. This left a vague contract law interpretation and definition that we believe directed the jury to the guilty verdict. We use the word “guise” of a DFR case, as it is our opinion that under labor law none of the three terms listed above were in fact proven. We believe that confusion between the labor law and the contract law definition of the term “bad faith” became the focus to the jury. The argument of “final and binding”, taken from the ALPA Constitution and merger procedures, was interjected into this trial by the plaintiffs, and the final argument of “a deal is a deal” was the ultimate focus of this court. We were not allowed to address nor defend these issues due to the orders by the judge that in our opinion ultimately led the jury to the guilty verdict.
What Next?
The question now becomes where we go from here; what path do we take? The appeal process will take us to San Francisco, where there will be a thorough review of the case procedures, rulings and labor law as it was applied in the Arizona Court. This Appeal is automatic!!! There is no 5% rule on whether this case will be heard at the Appellate Level; it is 100% guaranteed by the law. It is our opinion that previous DFR and labor cases provide grounds to overturn the lower court. This opinion is shared by our legal team, and they assure us that in Appeals Court cases, the law will be the standard, and the law will prevail. Previous case histories and court rulings weigh heavily in our favor regarding past practices and decisions of the Supreme, as well as the Federal Appeals, Court system. The question that we need to ask is how do we escape the tentacles of ALPA merger policy in our efforts to correct a flawed arbitrator’s decision? The “final and binding” argument that prevailed in the lower court was, in our opinion, removed from the context of contract law and improperly interjected into Railway Labor Law. The Supreme Court rulings support our case and our rights as a collective bargaining agent to negotiate in good faith for all our pilots for the greater good of the group. Those rights are guaranteed under the law, and our objective of fair and reasonableness have never been compromised by your union leaders or BPR.
We all need to ask ourselves, after reviewing the integrated positions of our pilots on the Nicolau list, how much is it worth to this pilot group to allow the insertion of pilots that were born in the 1980s amongst our never-been-furloughed 1988-hired pilots who were born in the 1950s? As pilots for US Airways, we have all suffered through the perils of this industry and lived through the raised and lowered expectations of our airline. There is a group of our Charlotte-based pilots, now averaging age 55, that will forever be banished from becoming a Captain at US Airways while a 26-year-old hired in 2004 moves in to that seat. That, in short, is the Nicolau.
The righteous cause and path we are on has no price tag in our opinion. There is no way that your Charlotte Reps will compromise your seniority, not at any price nor dollar value. As long as we are in office, we will pursue every legal process available to protect your career, all the way to the United States Supreme Court, if necessary. We will never forget that “Seniority Matters,” and the calls for compromising a Nicolau solution will not be an option as long as we are your representatives.
To clearly state our position, pursuing a remedy that compromises your seniority is not an option, not for any price. Simply put, if this group chooses an alternate path other than a fair integration of seniority for a few bucks in their pockets, you will have to elect new representatives to do this. In our minds, this self-serving thinking equates to nothing less than selling out our 6 to 25-year experienced pilots. These pilots have been our stick buddies for our entire career; to sell them out to the bottom of a seniority list for life is unconscionable. You only have to look as far as Minneapolis and Detroit to see the ramifications of selling out your seniority for a paycheck, as the Northwest Pilots’ current plight is being recognized with announced cutbacks and fleet reductions. This battle is not about the money; this battle is about what is fair and equitable and is truly a righteous cause. We must focus on our goals, and they are achievable. Labor and case law are on our side! Nobody said this was going to be easy, and yes, we all knew there would be setbacks along the way. Fortitude and resolve are required in any successful campaign, and we are on this train to the end of the process. These challenges are not for the faint of heart, and our committed goals as a union remain unraveled as we progress through the process of retaining the returns of our sacrifices that saved this company. Not one of us should ever consider trading those sacrifices at the expense of others for any dollar amount. “Our Seniority is not for sale.”


I guess everybody got it wrong, USAPA is always the victim. Short on facts but entertaining anyway. Paranoid of the web boards are we?

How about naming West pilots born in the 1980's. Can't seem to find any.

I'm still waiting for my Phoenix update.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Elect new reps? Sounds like a great idea.