An opportunity to regain 76 seat flying bypassed?????

[Sir Innocenti]

Right, explain this to me.......Ive been industry saavy for over 20 years now.....Why did NWA and Delta NOT capitalize on the opportunity to recoup 76 seat flying with the Compass flying???? Seriously, this could have opened the door to re-integrating some of the Comair, ASA, Compass and various DCI 76 seat flying to bolster the pay scale to yesteryear and reverse/reallocate the industry slide to what we all bitch about.....Is the NEW Delta too proud??????? Shame on you guys if so, you now have NOTHING to bitch about if this is the case,,,,,,Discuss....this is to hear the opinions, not flame.

 

[rightseatjocky]

Sir,
When you figure it out, please let me know also.
I just don't get what Delta does. It's just amazing to me some of the things that have come down from them.

 

[Speedtape]

Maybe, with the assumption that they could maintain and exercise control over that flying, they bought into the Management concept/scheme of accepting oursourcing at lower costs to benefit/support/subsidize/justify higher pay and benefits for pilots on the larger aircraft. It's like having the middle class pay the taxes so the rich can get richer. It makes sense. It follows simple logic of a caste system:

a division of society based on differences of wealth, inherited rank or privilege, profession, or occupation</I> </I>b : the position conferred by caste standing : PRESTIGE ,4 : a specialized form (as the worker of an ant or bee) of a polymorphic social insect that carries out a particular function in the colony</I> </I></I>

Moreover, should they have recaptured that flying, there is a good chance that there would have been large numbers in that demographic of 76/50 seat flying that could have watered down or mitigated the potential bargaining goals of the guys who fly the "big iron." Therefore, the controlling group or the highest level of the caste system, can leverage their control to gain higher pay and better benefits for the members at their level. In one sense, they are in partnership with Management and the scheme, because it benefits them more than the concept of all flying/one seniority list!

The degree of acceptance of this concept depends on what caste level one exists. It's interesting to observe the antithesis of ALPA's equality position of "a Pilot is a Pilot!" It's more of a human nature thing that we all subscribe to and perpetuate. There does seem to be some order to the order:

1. If you are a pilot, you are better than a non-pilot.
2. If you are a private pilot, you are better than a student pilot.
3. If you are a commercial pilot, you are better than a private pilot.
4. If you are a 121 pilot, you are better than a 135 pilot.
5. If you fly multi-engines, you are better than the single engine pilot.
6. If you fly turboprops, you are better than a recip pilot.
7. If you fly turbo jets, you are better than a turboprop pilot.
8. If you fly for a regional, you are better than a corporate pilot.
9. If you fly for a Major, you are better than a regional pilot.
10. If you are in Management but were a pilot, you are a scumbag and everyone else knows it!
11. If you are just in Management, you are better than all pilots--more like a god-like figure and you know it!

 

[JumpersAway]

The ONLY way to fix this mess is throught to staple regional jets to the bottom of a mainline list. Until then, it's always going to be an "us VS. them" mentality within our own union. The quicker this is done, the sooner we (pilots) can get back to the business of making money- a respectable wage that we should be getting paid- ie, pre 9/11.

 

[Raoul Duke]

if keeping 76 seat jets at regional rates boosts my mainline scale I am ok with that.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

The ONLY way to fix this mess is throught to staple regional jets to the bottom of a mainline list. Until then, it's always going to be an "us VS. them" mentality within our own union. The quicker this is done, the sooner we (pilots) can get back to the business of making money- a respectable wage that we should be getting paid- ie, pre 9/11.

AHHAA,
I don't know why we haven't done this sooner. You think mgmt will fight this one, or will they just let us take a larger slice of the pie without wimpering? This is in why mgmt has foisted krap like PBS on the pilot group as a whole. When has mgmt implimented ANYTHING, repeat ANYTHING that benifited pilots that costs money without a contract fight with strike threats? I will answer, never, its just that PBS is such a windfall for the company, and sold as a QOL improvement, the pilots bought it hook, line and sinker.
PBR

 

[Browntothebone]

The ONLY way to fix this mess is throught to staple regional jets to the bottom of a mainline list. Until then, it's always going to be an "us VS. them" mentality within our own union. The quicker this is done, the sooner we (pilots) can get back to the business of making money- a respectable wage that we should be getting paid- ie, pre 9/11.

This will never happen because the military pilots will NOT stand for having to start their careers flying an RJ.

 

[Draginass]

Because DALPA is drinking the koolaid big-time and is a lapdog union to Anderson. They had the chance to get a good contract with the leverage of the merger and pussied-out.

 

[hockeypilot44]

This will never happen because the military pilots will NOT stand for having to start their careers flying an RJ.

Don't forget all the lawsuits from the regional lifers. They will sue for a fair integration. They have nothing to lose.

 

[DoinTime]

Right, explain this to me.......Ive been industry saavy for over 20 years now.....Why did NWA and Delta NOT capitalize on the opportunity to recoup 76 seat flying with the Compass flying????

If you don't already know the answer to this question you are not industry savvy. Sorry.

 

[aewanabe]

Don't forget all the lawsuits from the regional lifers. They will sue for a fair integration. They have nothing to lose.

Yeah, the regional lifers are such losers. Guys that have for whatever reason stuck around a company for 10-20 years really suck compared to us studs that escaped in our late 20s or early 30s.uke:

I'm not a fan or supporter of the RJDC, and don't agree with guys that thought their Comair seniority entitled them to left seats at DL. I would, though, argue that guys with 20 plus years at OH watching their company continually lose pay, benes, and flying to other DCI carriers have plenty to lose.

 

[Browntothebone]

Yeah, the regional lifers are such losers. Guys that have for whatever reason stuck around a company for 10-20 years really suck compared to us studs that escaped in our late 20s or early 30s.uke:

I'm not a fan or supporter of the RJDC, and don't agree with guys that thought their Comair seniority entitled them to left seats at DL. I would, though, argue that guys with 20 plus years at OH watching their company continually lose pay, benes, and flying to other DCI carriers have plenty to lose.

Regionals were never intended to be a career destination. The entire pay and benefit structure is set up on that premise. Management has no incentive to change it because of the never ending availability of wannabes that will work for the current pay and benefits.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Yeah, the regional lifers are such losers. Guys that have for whatever reason stuck around a company for 10-20 years really suck compared to us studs that escaped in our late 20s or early 30s.uke:

I'm not a fan or supporter of the RJDC, and don't agree with guys that thought their Comair seniority entitled them to left seats at DL. I would, though, argue that guys with 20 plus years at OH watching their company continually lose pay, benes, and flying to other DCI carriers have plenty to lose.

I didn't say they were losers. Lifers was not meant to be an insult. They knew what they signed up for. To fly bigger airplanes for more money, you have to quit your regional.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

If you don't already know the answer to this question you are not industry savvy. Sorry.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Right, explain this to me.......Ive been industry saavy for over 20 years now.....Why did NWA and Delta NOT capitalize on the opportunity to recoup 76 seat flying with the Compass flying???? Seriously, this could have opened the door to re-integrating some of the Comair, ASA, Compass and various DCI 76 seat flying to bolster the pay scale to yesteryear and reverse/reallocate the industry slide to what we all bitch about.....Is the NEW Delta too proud??????? Shame on you guys if so, you now have NOTHING to bitch about if this is the case,,,,,,Discuss....this is to hear the opinions, not flame.

I think DALPA negotiated a $600 million bargaining credit in BK for future 76 seat scope to capitalize on the 76 seat flying.

 

[aewanabe]

To fly bigger airplanes for more money, you have to quit your regional.

And on that, we agree 100 percent. Cheers!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hey Texx....look...another dead horse....

This one might make 10 pages.....

 

[WalterSobchak]

Hey Texx....look...another dead horse....

This one might make 10 pages.....

A dead horse, you say?

 

[JoeMerchant]

A dead horse, you say?

That looks like a scene from the last ALPA BOD....

 

[DoinTime]

That looks like a scene from the last ALPA BOD....

How would you know?

 

[JumpersAway]

AHHAA,
I don't know why we haven't done this sooner. You think mgmt will fight this one, or will they just let us take a larger slice of the pie without wimpering? This is in why mgmt has foisted krap like PBS on the pilot group as a whole. When has mgmt implimented ANYTHING, repeat ANYTHING that benifited pilots that costs money without a contract fight with strike threats? I will answer, never, its just that PBS is such a windfall for the company, and sold as a QOL improvement, the pilots bought it hook, line and sinker.
PBR

PBR- Believe me, I completely understand. No one is willing to burn negotiating capital in order to get this done. Bottom line, the individual MEC's are too short sighted to deal with the short term pain in order to obtain a massive long term gain.

Also, I can't stand the fact that we are looked at as amateurs. We do the same exact job as someone flying for mainline. Same destinations, same weather, same job........period. Truthfully, I'd have to argue that regional flying is more difficult than mainline flying- look at many of the airports we go into. I'd rather deal with LaGuardia than some of the smaller airports we go to in W.V.

Anyway, bottom line is this problem isn't ever going to get fixed. It is what it is- a bunch of internal infighting and bickering that benafits management.

 

[JoeMerchant]

PBR- Believe me, I completely understand. No one is willing to burn negotiating capital in order to get this done. Bottom line, the individual MEC's are too short sighted to deal with the short term pain in order to obtain a massive long term gain.

Also, I can't stand the fact that we are looked at as amateurs. We do the same exact job as someone flying for mainline. Same destinations, same weather, same job........period. Truthfully, I'd have to argue that regional flying is more difficult than mainline flying- look at many of the airports we go into. I'd rather deal with LaGuardia than some of the smaller airports we go to in W.V.

Anyway, bottom line is this problem isn't ever going to get fixed. It is what it is- a bunch of internal infighting and bickering that benafits management.

Your post is dead on.....But even you think regional pilots should just be "stapled" to the bottom. Why should a 25 year regional pilot who works harder, is paid more, and has more time off....be stapled to the bottom of a 2 year mainline pilot? It appears that even we regional pilots think less of ourselves.....

In the end we will continue to beat this dead horse and remain divided.....That will cost everyone.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

How would you know?

I've seen enough ALPA functions behind the scenes to know that dead horses are the most common result.....

In 1999, I attended a "small jet bargaining conference" in Herndon. Tom Wycor attended as he was the new BSIC (Bi-Lateral Scope Impact Committee) Chairman. I asked him one morning if he had read the 1995 and 1996 scope committee reports. He said "No I haven't".....That was when I realized that this was all for show....Much like the TSA screening...it is political eyewash to make it look like things are being done.....

We will be beating this dead horse as long as we have multiple groups competing for flying....

 

[Jon Rivoli]

if keeping 76 seat jets at regional rates boosts my mainline scale I am ok with that.

This is the kind of thinking that is sinking the profession. There is no unity at ALPA or anywhere, even at a given carrier. The pecking order mentioned in post #2 is real and it is human nature to look down upon and denigrate those we have wronged to make ourselves feel better for having done so. They are stuck flying those little airplanes because they are crappy pilots and couldn't pass the interview, not because I voted to outsource those jobs and closed the door on their career advancement.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

To fly bigger airplanes for more money, you have to quit your regional.

No, not any more. You can depend on senior pilots at legacies to continue the above attitude. Stay were you are and in no time you will be flying 100 seats. But, when you are jumpseating expect a lecture from these same senior pilots on how YOU are destroying the profession.

Nowadays, the sucker is the Regional lifer who quits to go fly for a legacy, chasing the dream. I know former SkyWest pilots that are now furloughed FOR THE SECOND TIME. The schedules that I fly are the 737/ Airbus schedules of 7 years ago. Quit and go to a legacy and expect at least one furlough; enjoy the benefits of juniority again; a decade or more as an FO flying with some very unhappy Captains who have seen their careers decimated; and when you do eventually upgrade, more juniority, maybe for the rest of your career. But hey, you're flying a Boeing making the big bucks.

I haven't move up a single number in four or five months and only move up about 10 for the year. I think most of us have figured this game out. So my career earnings will be less, there is more to life than money. I fly a Canadair instead of a Boeing, so what. If I could make $100K a year flying a Super Cub I'd jump at the chance.

I'm 42, I make over $100k, I get 16 days off a month and am never away from home more than two nights a week. I also like the flying that I do and the people that I work with. The big money at the legacies is flying internation, two hours and I need to piss and stretch my legs. If I were in my twenties I would certainly feel differently but, this is how thing are.

I think I can be content flying 100 seaters here at SkyWest. Thanks ALPA.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

There is always the over 100% pay raise route:beer:

 

[sweptback]

Your post is dead on.....But even you think regional pilots should just be "stapled" to the bottom. Why should a 25 year regional pilot who works harder, is paid more, and has more time off....be stapled to the bottom of a 2 year mainline pilot? It appears that even we regional pilots think less of ourselves.....

In the end we will continue to beat this dead horse and remain divided.....That will cost everyone.....

From your perspective, you want to be integrated fairly. But let's say you went to Delta in the late 90s, dodged the furloughs, and now have some decent seniority. Don't you think you'd be one of the loudest voices in favor of a staple?

 

[PuffDriver]

Your post is dead on.....But even you think regional pilots should just be "stapled" to the bottom. Why should a 25 year regional pilot who works harder, is paid more, and has more time off....be stapled to the bottom of a 2 year mainline pilot? It appears that even we regional pilots think less of ourselves.....

In the end we will continue to beat this dead horse and remain divided.....That will cost everyone.....

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

Waaahhhhhhhhhh. I ain't gett'in my love from the big boys. Waaaahhhhhhhh.

 

[filejw]

Right, explain this to me.......Ive been industry saavy for over 20 years now.....Why did NWA and Delta NOT capitalize on the opportunity to recoup 76 seat flying with the Compass flying???? Seriously, this could have opened the door to re-integrating some of the Comair, ASA, Compass and various DCI 76 seat flying to bolster the pay scale to yesteryear and reverse/reallocate the industry slide to what we all bitch about.....Is the NEW Delta too proud??????? Shame on you guys if so, you now have NOTHING to bitch about if this is the case,,,,,,Discuss....this is to hear the opinions, not flame.

According to an ALPA rep its because the contract wasn't fully opened to a section six negotiation, what ever that is.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is the kind of thinking that is sinking the profession. There is no unity at ALPA or anywhere, even at a given carrier. The pecking order mentioned in post #2 is real and it is human nature to look down upon and denigrate those we have wronged to make ourselves feel better for having done so. They are stuck flying those little airplanes because they are crappy pilots and couldn't pass the interview, not because I voted to outsource those jobs and closed the door on their career advancement.



No, not any more. You can depend on senior pilots at legacies to continue the above attitude. Stay were you are and in no time you will be flying 100 seats. But, when you are jumpseating expect a lecture from these same senior pilots on how YOU are destroying the profession.

Nowadays, the sucker is the Regional lifer who quits to go fly for a legacy, chasing the dream. I know former SkyWest pilots that are now furloughed FOR THE SECOND TIME. The schedules that I fly are the 737/ Airbus schedules of 7 years ago. Quit and go to a legacy and expect at least one furlough; enjoy the benefits of juniority again; a decade or more as an FO flying with some very unhappy Captains who have seen their careers decimated; and when you do eventually upgrade, more juniority, maybe for the rest of your career. But hey, you're flying a Boeing making the big bucks.

I haven't move up a single number in four or five months and only move up about 10 for the year. I think most of us have figured this game out. So my career earnings will be less, there is more to life than money. I fly a Canadair instead of a Boeing, so what. If I could make $100K a year flying a Super Cub I'd jump at the chance.

I'm 42, I make over $100k, I get 16 days off a month and am never away from home more than two nights a week. I also like the flying that I do and the people that I work with. The big money at the legacies is flying internation, two hours and I need to piss and stretch my legs. If I were in my twenties I would certainly feel differently but, this is how thing are.

I think I can be content flying 100 seaters here at SkyWest. Thanks ALPA.

Absolutely correct...Why stop at 100 seats....Let's keep going.....We didn't deal out the lemons...so don't get made if we make lemonade....

 

[JoeMerchant]

From your perspective, you want to be integrated fairly. But let's say you went to Delta in the late 90s, dodged the furloughs, and now have some decent seniority. Don't you think you'd be one of the loudest voices in favor of a staple?

Who's perspective do you expect me to have? He has his and I have mine....I believe my perspective is more "fair".....

This whole issue is purely academic at this point...The single list ship sailed a long time ago...I was merely pointing out to JumpersAway that even he seems to be selling himself short by just accepting a staple even though he understands that we do the same job.....