An opportunity to regain 76 seat flying bypassed?????

[MCDU]

Hello

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Puff, you sure are an angry fellow. The above quotes simply reflect my lack of faith in you to keep from outsourcing more flying to regionals. If you really have been a mighty Delta Captain as long as you say and are younger than me, congrats, you must have hired on at Delta in your early twenties. If that is the case I can't imagine why you are so angry an touchy. My guess is that you are trying to convince youself you are right <hint> you're not. SLI done and fuel getting cheaper by the minute with the economy in the tank. Hello RJ's, good bye DC-9's and MD's. Notice all your orders are for larger aircraft, that is where the best margins are and given the choice between more bigger, better paying aircraft or fighting RJ's the people who matter at ALPA will take door number 1 every time. More and bigger RJs are a bargaining chip. If you are already a Delta Captian, enjoy the ride. For those of us you put on a permenant B scale, we'll just have to make the best of it.

Peace

 

[MJ42]

Puff, you sure are an angry fellow. The above quotes simply reflect my lack of faith in you to keep from outsourcing more flying to regionals. If you really have been a mighty Delta Captain as long as you say and are younger than me, congrats, you must have hired on at Delta in your early twenties. If that is the case I can't imagine why you are so angry an touchy. My guess is that you are trying to convince youself you are right <hint> you're not. SLI done and fuel getting cheaper by the minute with the economy in the tank. Hello RJ's, good bye DC-9's and MD's. Notice all your orders are for larger aircraft, that is where the best margins are and given the choice between more bigger, better paying aircraft or fighting RJ's the people who matter at ALPA will take door number 1 every time. More and bigger RJs are a bargaining chip. If you are already a Delta Captian, enjoy the ride. For those of us you put on a permenant B scale, we'll just have to make the best of it.

Peace

Care to revise your post?

http://www.ajc.com/business/content...09/deltafleethedline.html?cxntlid=inform_artr


Also, we are pulling DC-9's out of the desert. More RJ's will be parked.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff, you sure are an angry fellow. The above quotes simply reflect my lack of faith in you to keep from outsourcing more flying to regionals. If you really have been a mighty Delta Captain as long as you say and are younger than me, congrats, you must have hired on at Delta in your early twenties. If that is the case I can't imagine why you are so angry an touchy. My guess is that you are trying to convince youself you are right <hint> you're not. SLI done and fuel getting cheaper by the minute with the economy in the tank. Hello RJ's, good bye DC-9's and MD's. Notice all your orders are for larger aircraft, that is where the best margins are and given the choice between more bigger, better paying aircraft or fighting RJ's the people who matter at ALPA will take door number 1 every time. More and bigger RJs are a bargaining chip. If you are already a Delta Captian, enjoy the ride. For those of us you put on a permenant B scale, we'll just have to make the best of it.

Peace

Ah yes, the know-it-all rj pilot. Got the whole world wired. Sorry, Charlie, not angry. You give yourself too much credit. Just correcting misinformation. Your spew of what mainline conditions was inaccurate. I corrected it. Your idea that 100 seat rjs are about to be up for grabs is inaccurate. I corrected it.

here is some more misinformation, you are not on a permanent B-scale. It will become a C-scale. Delta has publicly stated that its rj operators are going to be sharing in the pain soon. What isn't eliminated is going to be lesser paid as the "sharing" trickles down. So the b-scale is not permanent-it will get worse. Gas may be down for now, and stay down for a year or 2 due to demand. It will go up, it has to. It has no choice. No matter, the rj does, and always will have its place, just not what it used to be. The idea is through, run its course, over. It is a dying airplane, to be replaced by newer generation rjs.

You are not seeing newer narrowbody orders because right now Delta is in the used aircraft market for narrowbodies--including mds. We have a 100 seat aircraft--which does a wonderful job with fuel prices where they are. It will be replacing frequency of rjs. We are not going to be reducing cities as a whole--merely the frequencies. That means rj reductions. I suspect you will be hearing the announcements shortly. As for the larger rjs, they are bumping against the limits soon, if not as we speak.

Which brings us to skywest, the scummy group enjoying hard fought union gains without the sacrifice. The day will come, count on it.

No anger just cold, hard facts.

So long, and enjoy your 100k while it lasts. <hint> it won't

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Yawn,

Also, we are pulling DC-9's out of the desert.

Now I know you are delusional.

Which brings us to skywest, the scummy group enjoying hard fought union gains without the sacrifice. The day will come, count on it.

Gains? What gains? Sounds like angry words to me.

Bye bye!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Here ya go:
http://www2.bombardier.com/CRJ/en/NextGen/index.html Click galleries, videos, top right picture.
No dog in this fight, just a working stiff waiting for the other boot to drop. Every airline that occupied the "TOP DAWG" slot in past history has been knocked on their collective cans. Jon we don't have it the best, just good enough to keep us from quitting.
PBR

 

[PuffDriver]

Yawn,



Now I know you are delusional.



Gains? What gains? Sounds like angry words to me.

Bye bye!

DC-9 are being pulled from the desert.

The gains are that you have a job. Noticed the 737 type, yet still at skywest. By choice--RIGHT!!! Content where you are---RIGHT!!

Game, set, match.

See ya next time.

 

[MJ42]

DC-9 are being pulled from the desert.

The gains are that you have a job. Noticed the 737 type, yet still at skywest. By choice--RIGHT!!! Content where you are---RIGHT!!

Game, set, match.

See ya next time.

You are correct. Also, to further show Jon's OPINIONS are wrong, our last award had a lot of DC-9 Captain awards. And, emails were sent to DC-9 Captains and F/O's looking for IP's. Why? Because they are not parking DC-9's as Jon thinks. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when FACTS prove you wrong...enough said.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

The gains are that you have a job.

Wow! Really delusional.

Noticed the 737 type, yet still at skywest. By choice--RIGHT!!! Content where you are---RIGHT!!

Career expectations change. Yes, I am content where I am. Clearly, you are not. Very angry!!!

Puff, I'm laughing at you!!!

Who are you trying to convince? The whole point of my post is that I, and many others ain't buying it anymore. Are you trying to tell me that I should spruce up my resume and update my application at Delta, United, Continental and American?

Things are what they are, not what they used to be and they ain't going back.

The old eat a turd sandwich, set the Captains altimeter for him, pay your dues and someday son you too can be an Airline Captain, ain't working any more. About four or five thousand mainline jobs have been outsourced and WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL GET THEM BACK. We don't even think you will really try and by you I mean mainline pilots as a whole. I understand that you feel threatened by this. Maybe you got in, Captain, before that program turned pumpkin. My guess is that you are rightly concerned about the trend continueing, stagnation or even downgrade. You should be. But, don't waste your wrath on us lowly regional pilots, we don't even have a say in the matter. So, Joe Merchant and I and many others have come to terms with that and moved on with our lives, get over it. Get over yourself.

Fools like you amuse me. You are your own worst enemy. Execute an about face and charge. I think it is a losing battle, but knock yourself out.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow! Really delusional.



Career expectations change. Yes, I am content where I am. Clearly, you are not. Very angry!!!

Puff, I'm laughing at you!!!

Who are you trying to convince? The whole point of my post is that I, and many others ain't buying it anymore. Are you trying to tell me that I should spruce up my resume and update my application at Delta, United, Continental and American?

Things are what they are, not what they used to be and they ain't going back.

The old eat a turd sandwich, set the Captains altimeter for him, pay your dues and someday son you too can be an Airline Captain, ain't working any more. About four or five thousand mainline jobs have been outsourced and WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL GET THEM BACK. We don't even think you will really try and by you I mean mainline pilots as a whole. I understand that you feel threatened by this. Maybe you got in, Captain, before that program turned pumpkin. My guess is that you are rightly concerned about the trend continueing, stagnation or even downgrade. You should be. But, don't waste your wrath on us lowly regional pilots, we don't even have a say in the matter. So, Joe Merchant and I and many others have come to terms with that and moved on with our lives, get over it. Get over yourself.

Fools like you amuse me. You are your own worst enemy. Execute an about face and charge. I think it is a losing battle, but knock yourself out.

:beer:

 

[Nightrain_080]

DC-9 are being pulled from the desert.

The gains are that you have a job. Noticed the 737 type, yet still at skywest. By choice--RIGHT!!! Content where you are---RIGHT!!

Game, set, match.

See ya next time.

Hit the showers Puff Daddy. Don't waste our time on the Regional boards. I have to agree with the rest you seem like your the real sensitive type.

 

[PuffDriver]

Wow! Really delusional.



Career expectations change. Yes, I am content where I am. Clearly, you are not. Very angry!!!

Puff, I'm laughing at you!!!

Who are you trying to convince? The whole point of my post is that I, and many others ain't buying it anymore. Are you trying to tell me that I should spruce up my resume and update my application at Delta, United, Continental and American?

Things are what they are, not what they used to be and they ain't going back.

The old eat a turd sandwich, set the Captains altimeter for him, pay your dues and someday son you too can be an Airline Captain, ain't working any more. About four or five thousand mainline jobs have been outsourced and WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL GET THEM BACK. We don't even think you will really try and by you I mean mainline pilots as a whole. I understand that you feel threatened by this. Maybe you got in, Captain, before that program turned pumpkin. My guess is that you are rightly concerned about the trend continueing, stagnation or even downgrade. You should be. But, don't waste your wrath on us lowly regional pilots, we don't even have a say in the matter. So, Joe Merchant and I and many others have come to terms with that and moved on with our lives, get over it. Get over yourself.

Fools like you amuse me. You are your own worst enemy. Execute an about face and charge. I think it is a losing battle, but knock yourself out.

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!! Blah, blah, blah.

Yep career expectations change. Wasted money on a type.

MY participation in this thread started with somebody needing to get over themself.

One thing I will give you regional guys credit for is your ability to change topics when your "facts" are proven wrong.

Fact is that the trend IS changing. RJs are going away. Comair is furloughing. ASA is about to furlough. The RJs have burnt management badly. Not only are they crap airplanes, but they are operated poorly as well. Crews handle passengers badly, do not keep them informed, numerous cancellations, etc.

No matter. As far as the trend of scope reversing, I do not expect it to--never said I did. However, saying that you don't expect scope to change and actively pursuing larger jets--such as the 100 seater subject you brought up then abruptly switched--are two different animals altogether. It is akin to scab mentality. Your job came directly off of the backs of mainline pilots, yet you yearn for even more off of their backs. That is where you got called to the mat, and where the deflect and divert started.

So I say again, yawn. No concerns here. Just trying to clear up misinformation. My bad, trying to educate those determined to live in the dark. Just don't be surprised, and enjoy those hard fought union gains. Laugh away. It's all you've got.

 

[~~~^~~~]

and getting back around to the topic of this thread...

To answer the question; Why did D_ALPA fail to grab an opportunity to return flying to mainline? Here are the answers I was told by my Reps (yes, the quotes are direct quotes):

• "Scope does not work"
• "Scope does not matter"
• The Company is not planning on growing DCI, it is not a threat
• Other items are higher priority

From the plugged in Captains that I spoke with, their logic was:

• It doesn't effect me, I'll never fly an RJ
• We would have to lower mainline pay to bring them up to our standard

There is zero political interest in restoring this flying to Delta mainline, except for a small (and growing) group of former regional pilots who want Delta flying returned to Delta.

The NWA Reps actually replied in writing and their perspective was different than Delta's. They are much more interested in preserving scope. They seemed to think the Company would want 76 seat scope relief and would come to the union asking to put Compass on the list, eventually.

Since these joint contract discussions, we have had the seniority list result which changed the 76 seat picture. The trigger for the 76 to 70 seat conversion slipped from 10% up the Delta list to around 4% on the combined list. In other words, if Delta furloughs even 4% of its pilots, the more onerous job protection provisions are in effect. ... In that case Delta Inc. will want a side agreement and then it may be the opportunity to staple Compass that NWA ALPA was talking about.

Also, we are beginning to see little skirmishes break out between DCI carriers on their respective flow through agreements. It makes sense to merge Mesaba and Comair, but the two year Mesaba Captains don't want senior Comair pilots coming over with seniority and potentially better flow position.

I've long advocated a merge and staple approach to ALPA carriers in DCI. We ALPA members have no right, or obligation, to speak on behalf of non-ALPA pilots. You are either in the club, or not.

The new Delta MEC is obviously the 1,200 lb gorilla in ALPA (for now). The former military officer perspective of this group is World's apart from the way the mostly civilian regional pilot ranks see things. Many of Delta's pilots took blisteringly harsh (50% plus) pay cut. It is tough going to work and earning less in the left seat than you earned in the right seat a decade ago. Combine this with the loss of a defined benefit pension and frankly, RJ issues take a distant back seat to pay & compensation. If you have never taken two furloughs, a bankruptcy and two rounds of pay cuts you probably do not appreciate what these pilots have been through and how it effects what they want from their union.

It is what it is. I hope that as the new Delta starts hiring like gangbusters in the future the perspectives will change - that unionism and scope will become a higher priority. Until then, expect status quo unless the Company comes to the table and wants a merger.

Overall the Delta MEC has done an excellent job representing the combined group of pilots. Given the threats that were on the horizon the Delta MEC has provided some exceptional leadership and most of the Delta pilots realize things could have been a whole lot worse than they turned out.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Absolutely correct...Why stop at 100 seats....Let's keep going.....We didn't deal out the lemons...so don't get made if we make lemonade....

Didn't you and the rest of the girls already try that with the creation of the rjdc?
How'd that work out for ya?:laugh:

 

[~~~^~~~]

Scope out RJ's - no - The RJDC would have made scope more effective not less.

With the exception of Compass - all those big Embraers that look like 757's washed in warm water one too many times are flown by non-ALPA pilots.

The RJDC wanted the Comair and ASA Reps to be empowered to negotiate their own scope. Together and in concert with the Delta MEC, there would have been much less outsourcing.

History clearly shows that left on its own, the Delta MEC negotiated and ratified far more outsourcing than what existed when the RJDC was formed.

Also, JoeMerchant's opinions are Joe Merchant's. Joe is anti ALPA, while the RJDC was never anti ALPA. There is an enormous difference between trying to fix your union and working to destroy (or decertify) your union.

 

[Speedtape]

Scope out RJ's - no - The RJDC would have made scope more effective not less.

With the exception of Compass - all those big Embraers that look like 757's washed in warm water one too many times are flown by non-ALPA pilots.

The RJDC wanted the Comair and ASA Reps to be empowered to negotiate their own scope. Together and in concert with the Delta MEC, there would have been much less outsourcing.

History clearly shows that left on its own, the Delta MEC negotiated and ratified far more outsourcing than what existed when the RJDC was formed.

No truer statement has ever been stated!

Also, JoeMerchant's opinions are Joe Merchant's. Joe is anti ALPA, while the RJDC was never anti ALPA. There is an enormous difference between trying to fix your union and working to destroy (or decertify) your union.

I think Joe Merchant is working for the greater good of ALPA and all ALPA pilots! He is just doing it in a covert manner!

 

[MJ42]

Wow! Really delusional.



Career expectations change. Yes, I am content where I am. Clearly, you are not. Very angry!!!

Puff, I'm laughing at you!!!

Who are you trying to convince? The whole point of my post is that I, and many others ain't buying it anymore. Are you trying to tell me that I should spruce up my resume and update my application at Delta, United, Continental and American?

Things are what they are, not what they used to be and they ain't going back.

The old eat a turd sandwich, set the Captains altimeter for him, pay your dues and someday son you too can be an Airline Captain, ain't working any more. About four or five thousand mainline jobs have been outsourced and WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL GET THEM BACK. We don't even think you will really try and by you I mean mainline pilots as a whole. I understand that you feel threatened by this. Maybe you got in, Captain, before that program turned pumpkin. My guess is that you are rightly concerned about the trend continueing, stagnation or even downgrade. You should be. But, don't waste your wrath on us lowly regional pilots, we don't even have a say in the matter. So, Joe Merchant and I and many others have come to terms with that and moved on with our lives, get over it. Get over yourself.

Fools like you amuse me. You are your own worst enemy. Execute an about face and charge. I think it is a losing battle, but knock yourself out.

Hey Jon, what ya got to say about this?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=119755

DAL is trying to get out of a lot of 50 seat flying. Skywest, Inc has a lot of 50 seat jets, therefore, in order to "adjust" the iron clad contract DAL made a deal. Looks like Skywest, Inc accepted. You guys will not get anything bigger. There is a different attitude about outsourcing flying, thanks to the junior pilots, than in the past.

Remind me again, who did you think was delusional? Was it you?

 

[PuffDriver]

Scope out RJ's - no - The RJDC would have made scope more effective not less.

With the exception of Compass - all those big Embraers that look like 757's washed in warm water one too many times are flown by non-ALPA pilots.

The RJDC wanted the Comair and ASA Reps to be empowered to negotiate their own scope. Together and in concert with the Delta MEC, there would have been much less outsourcing.

History clearly shows that left on its own, the Delta MEC negotiated and ratified far more outsourcing than what existed when the RJDC was formed.

Also, JoeMerchant's opinions are Joe Merchant's. Joe is anti ALPA, while the RJDC was never anti ALPA. There is an enormous difference between trying to fix your union and working to destroy (or decertify) your union.

We will never agree on what would or would not have happened with a successful PID or a successful lawsuit. I do not agree with any of your conclusions on that subject as they are all opinions--as are mine. Knowing Delta at the time, because I was here, there was NO way in hell that Delta was going to allow Comair and ASA and Delta to merge lists. NO amount of begging, pleading, crying would have done the trick.

..and what I said would happen is coming to fruition. They ain't happy at 76 seats, they want more, and that is about as scummy as it gets.

I voted against almost every agreement allowing more outsourcing, including the most lucrative agreement in the history of aviation. My for vote was with an 1113 gun held to my temple, which I have no doubt the company would have played.

I am willing to strike in order to bring flying back onto campus. I look forward to diluting the traditional Delta guys with more scope thinkers.

 

[DoinTime]

I voted against almost every agreement allowing more outsourcing, including the most lucrative agreement in the history of aviation.

FYI....History goes back well before 1985. If you think the last big Delta contract was "the most lucrative in the history of aviation," you don't know your history.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We will never agree on ....

(1) ..and what I said would happen is coming to fruition. They ain't happy at 76 seats, they want more, and that is about as scummy as it gets.

(2) I voted against almost every agreement allowing more outsourcing....

(3) I am willing to strike in order to bring flying back onto campus. I look forward to diluting the traditional Delta guys with more scope thinkers.

Sir, we completely agree on your three points.

A fellow proud "no" voter,
~~~^~~~