An opportunity to regain 76 seat flying bypassed?????

[~~~^~~~]

FYI....History goes back well before 1985. If you think the last big Delta contract was "the most lucrative in the history of aviation," you don't know your history.

He refers to the 2000 contract.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Also, JoeMerchant's opinions are Joe Merchant's. Joe is anti ALPA, while the RJDC was never anti ALPA. There is an enormous difference between trying to fix your union and working to destroy (or decertify) your union.

I'm not "anti ALPA"....I simply cannot support failed organizations....

Today ASA was awarded 10 900s....In the past 12 months, those 900s were at or to be at:

Mesa (ALPA)
Comair (ALPA)
Pinnacle (ALPA)
Mesaba (ALPA)
and now ASA (ALPA)

....oh and they are owned by Delta (ALPA)....

A mainline ALPA airline owns 10 aircraft that are passed around amongst 5 ALPA carriers like a joint at a concert....and yet we are supposed to just wave our ALPA pom poms and blame each other.....

I blame union leadership.....not the pilots at Mesa, Comair, Pinnacle, Mesaba, or ASA.....

 

[Speedtape]

I'm not "anti ALPA"....I simply cannot support failed organizations....

Today ASA was awarded 10 900s....In the past 12 months, those 900s were at or to be at:

Mesa (ALPA)
Comair (ALPA)
Pinnacle (ALPA)
Mesaba (ALPA)
and now ASA (ALPA)

....oh and they are owned by Delta (ALPA)....

A mainline ALPA airline owns 10 aircraft that are passed around amongst 5 ALPA carriers like a joint at a concert....and yet we are supposed to just wave our ALPA pom poms and blame each other.....

I blame union leadership.....not the pilots at Mesa, Comair, Pinnacle, Mesaba, or ASA.....

As most of you well know, the MOTHERSHIP owns all 15 of those planes. They can put them where they want, which includes Mainline--but not in this century.

Heck, there have almost been as many award announcements as there are airplanes. Around and Around they go, where they land, no one knows.

How many more announcements will there be? If I was an ASA pilot, I wouldn't count my chickens until they come home to roost!

In the meantime, for something real, check out the guns on my Babe!

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm not "anti ALPA"....I simply cannot support failed organizations....

I blame union leadership.....not the pilots at Mesa, Comair, Pinnacle, Mesaba, or ASA.....

Your frustration is understandable, but ALPA still appears to be the best hope this profession has.

 

[Speedtape]

Your frustration is understandable, but ALPA still appears to be the best hope this profession has.

Yes, and maybe the only hope--broke and all!

 

[N2264J]

Re: An opportunity to regain 76 seat flying bypassed?

Was anyone talking to you???

Hidey ho, Poindexter!

How many ASA pilots have you flown with from November 8, 2007 to September 21, 2008?

 

[PuffDriver]

Hidey ho, Poindexter!

How many ASA pilots have you flown with from November 8, 2007 to September 21, 2008?

Don't know. Flying with a Marine ths trip. Took the time to fin out about him and his service--very impressive.

Now you just st there and stare straight ahead. Better yet, list more of your "aircraft flown" on FI--where it really matters.

Hook, line, sinker. Ah Comair guys. They are SOOOOO easy.

 

[PuffDriver]

FYI....History goes back well before 1985. If you think the last big Delta contract was "the most lucrative in the history of aviation," you don't know your history.

Yeah, what do I know. I've only been at five airlines. Not to mention that I am not an RJ driver. Maybe someday.

 

[PuffDriver]

Sir, we completely agree on your three points.

A fellow proud "no" voter,
~~~^~~~

Just to make sure, my point 1 was talking about DCI pilots--not management. I expect management to fight me for more outsourced flying. I do not expect DCI pilots to push for more and larger jets.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just to make sure, my point 1 was talking about DCI pilots--not management. I expect management to fight me for more outsourced flying. I do not expect DCI pilots to push for more and larger jets.

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

 

[PuffDriver]

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

Not :crying: :crying: :crying:


More like :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:

you'll get your memo, don't worry

 

[Speedtape]

Just to make sure, my point 1 was talking about DCI pilots--not management. I expect management to fight me for more outsourced flying. I do not expect DCI pilots to push for more and larger jets.

Just curious, how many of those fights with management have you won?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I'm not "anti ALPA"....I simply cannot support failed organizations....

And yet you continue to support the rjdc?:laugh: :laugh:

Concentrate on flying that shiny jet now junior. You're going to need all the help you can get!
Maybe your girl n2264j can give you pointers when you dan and the rest of the club get together for one of your circle jerks!:blush: :laugh:

 

[DoinTime]

He refers to the 2000 contract.

Thats what I referring to as well.

 

[DoinTime]

Yeah, what do I know. I've only been at five airlines. Not to mention that I am not an RJ driver. Maybe someday.

Considering you are my age, you haven't lived what I am referring to as history. It doesn't matter how many airlines you worked at. You have to read the history books, research old contracts, and ask informative questions to people who flew through the dawn of the jet age to figure out what I am talking about.

If you would get over your disdain for regional pilots you may be able to have a factual conversation with some them. Factual conversation are probably not why you log in here though. You, like many others, are just looking to boost your own self image by putting down others.

 

[buscap]

We at the regionals are like Frankenstien's monster. You made us and now you don't want us around.

We keep getting bigger and stronger, while all the villagers want us to go away, but they don't have the nads to get their pitchforks and torches.

Either kill the monster or STFU and let him play around in the village.

He's not so bad really. He's just misunderstood.

Every chance you guys get to kill the monster, you just wuss out anyway.

 

[PuffDriver]

Considering you are my age, you haven't lived what I am referring to as history. It doesn't matter how many airlines you worked at. You have to read the history books, research old contracts, and ask informative questions to people who flew through the dawn of the jet age to figure out what I am talking about.

If you would get over your disdain for regional pilots you may be able to have a factual conversation with some them. Factual conversation are probably not why you log in here though. You, like many others, are just looking to boost your own self image by putting down others.

Ah yes, the expert. Funny thing about being with 5 airlines--the people you meet. The experience you obtain. I've met and talked with guys from the early ages of aviation--who were sitting in my cabin drooling from old age. I've flown with military pilots who've punched out of airplanes and lived while their RIs died. I've dug through piles of ALPA documents in contract administration work looking for intent and precedent in contractual language in order to gain an upper hand in grievance administration.

One thing has become painfully obvious over the years: the single most egoistic person in the world is the regional captain.

So throw your barbs around. I really don't care. FI is entertainment, no more, no less. C2K was the single most lucrative contract in the history of contracts. It served as a springboard from which others have gained--and I voted no on it. The new scope was simply unpalatable.

I've had conversations with regional pilots. I carry them in my jumpseat on daily basis. I've also been one. I've got about 3k hours in the sf3. The beauty of my position is that I have seen both sides of the fence, and a large contingent--apparently including yourself--have not. Yet you feel free to judge the actions of major pilots, the wimps, the pu$$ies, the gutless. Many have laid their lives on the line in order to insure that the RJDC freaks have the right to sue in order to take more flying from them. Oh the irony, and simultaneous lack of any semblance of humility.

So you can save your sanctimony. I suggest you start reading books other than fiction. I suggest that you talk to real live people who not sitting beside you on your CL65. Frankenstein may be an interesting read, but has nothing to do with the real world situations. The Saab and RJ may be cool airplanes, but tend to be flown by the same demographic. It's a big, beautiful world out there, with fascinating people from all walks of life. Unfortunately, it also comes with the unscrupulous.

I'll give you credit though, it is a waste of time trolling on the regional board battling wits with the unarmed. You've got me there. perhaps we can arrange a deal: I'll go away, and you can keep your scummy regional buds over here. Deal?

Didn't think so.

Hook, line, sinker.

 

[Speedtape]

Ah yes, the expert. Funny thing about being with 5 airlines--the people you meet. The experience you obtain. I've met and talked with guys from the early ages of aviation--who were sitting in my cabin drooling from old age. I've flown with military pilots who've punched out of airplanes and lived while their RIs died. I've dug through piles of ALPA documents in contract administration work looking for intent and precedent in contractual language in order to gain an upper hand in grievance administration.

One thing has become painfully obvious over the years: the single most egoistic person in the world is the regional captain.

So throw your barbs around. I really don't care. FI is entertainment, no more, no less. C2K was the single most lucrative contract in the history of contracts. It served as a springboard from which others have gained--and I voted no on it. The new scope was simply unpalatable.

I've had conversations with regional pilots. I carry them in my jumpseat on daily basis. I've also been one. I've got about 3k hours in the sf3. The beauty of my position is that I have seen both sides of the fence, and a large contingent--apparently including yourself--have not. Yet you feel free to judge the actions of major pilots, the wimps, the pu$$ies, the gutless. Many have laid their lives on the line in order to insure that the RJDC freaks have the right to sue in order to take more flying from them. Oh the irony, and simultaneous lack of any semblance of humility.

So you can save your sanctimony. I suggest you start reading books other than fiction. I suggest that you talk to real live people who not sitting beside you on your CL65. Frankenstein may be an interesting read, but has nothing to do with the real world situations. The Saab and RJ may be cool airplanes, but tend to be flown by the same demographic. It's a big, beautiful world out there, with fascinating people from all walks of life. Unfortunately, it also comes with the unscrupulous.

I'll give you credit though, it is a waste of time trolling on the regional board battling wits with the unarmed. You've got me there. perhaps we can arrange a deal: I'll go away, and you can keep your scummy regional buds over here. Deal?

Didn't think so.

Hook, line, sinker.

Dude! You should take up writing. Hemingway and Fitzgerald couldn't hold a candle to you!

 

[Sir Innocenti]

If you don't already know the answer to this question you are not industry savvy. Sorry.

Saavy according to Websters is "with knowledge and familiarity"...There is a difference in being saavy and a "know it all". A "know it all" I am not, hence my post....

 

[Sir Innocenti]

and getting back around to the topic of this thread...

To answer the question; Why did D_ALPA fail to grab an opportunity to return flying to mainline? Here are the answers I was told by my Reps (yes, the quotes are direct quotes):

• "Scope does not work"
• "Scope does not matter"
• The Company is not planning on growing DCI, it is not a threat
• Other items are higher priority

From the plugged in Captains that I spoke with, their logic was:

• It doesn't effect me, I'll never fly an RJ
• We would have to lower mainline pay to bring them up to our standard

There is zero political interest in restoring this flying to Delta mainline, except for a small (and growing) group of former regional pilots who want Delta flying returned to Delta.

The NWA Reps actually replied in writing and their perspective was different than Delta's. They are much more interested in preserving scope. They seemed to think the Company would want 76 seat scope relief and would come to the union asking to put Compass on the list, eventually.

Since these joint contract discussions, we have had the seniority list result which changed the 76 seat picture. The trigger for the 76 to 70 seat conversion slipped from 10% up the Delta list to around 4% on the combined list. In other words, if Delta furloughs even 4% of its pilots, the more onerous job protection provisions are in effect. ... In that case Delta Inc. will want a side agreement and then it may be the opportunity to staple Compass that NWA ALPA was talking about.

Also, we are beginning to see little skirmishes break out between DCI carriers on their respective flow through agreements. It makes sense to merge Mesaba and Comair, but the two year Mesaba Captains don't want senior Comair pilots coming over with seniority and potentially better flow position.

I've long advocated a merge and staple approach to ALPA carriers in DCI. We ALPA members have no right, or obligation, to speak on behalf of non-ALPA pilots. You are either in the club, or not.

The new Delta MEC is obviously the 1,200 lb gorilla in ALPA (for now). The former military officer perspective of this group is World's apart from the way the mostly civilian regional pilot ranks see things. Many of Delta's pilots took blisteringly harsh (50% plus) pay cut. It is tough going to work and earning less in the left seat than you earned in the right seat a decade ago. Combine this with the loss of a defined benefit pension and frankly, RJ issues take a distant back seat to pay & compensation. If you have never taken two furloughs, a bankruptcy and two rounds of pay cuts you probably do not appreciate what these pilots have been through and how it effects what they want from their union.

It is what it is. I hope that as the new Delta starts hiring like gangbusters in the future the perspectives will change - that unionism and scope will become a higher priority. Until then, expect status quo unless the Company comes to the table and wants a merger.

Overall the Delta MEC has done an excellent job representing the combined group of pilots. Given the threats that were on the horizon the Delta MEC has provided some exceptional leadership and most of the Delta pilots realize things could have been a whole lot worse than they turned out.

Thank you for the insight as well as taking the time to write all that...it gives me a
'different" angle to see the reason....