Can anyone understand "problems" with NWA's seniority list?

[~~~^~~~]

There is some discontinuity here,

Also you know the scope language and you continue to ignore it, why?

OK Poster #1 was trying to whip up hysteria that Delta will have surplus positions due to reduced North Atlantic flying. I pointed out that we are moving pilots into the international category, there is no surplus.

Poster #2 was arguing against the flow back. What did I miss in pointing out the applicable scope that was carried forward from NWA and Delta's Section 1?

I do not expect the flow back to happen. I'm not saying it is not there.

 

[Superpilot92]

I love DC9's. As General has alluded to, there seems to be another, better, reason for the DC9's from the desert rumor. It is a way to introduce a cheap competitor into negotiations for other airplanes in the 100 to 150 seat market.

Maybe, maybe not but either argument is just as much "FACT" as the other. The RD side is quick to discount the fact that the -9s could be coming back to replace regional feed. It is just funny how any discussion that hints at the DC9s bringing more to the table gets some of you guys up in arms. More jobs at mainline is a good thing, right? :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

OK Poster #1 was trying to whip up hysteria that Delta will have surplus positions due to reduced North Atlantic flying. I pointed out that we are moving pilots into the international category, there is no surplus.

Poster #2 was arguing against the flow back. What did I miss in pointing out the applicable scope that was carried forward from NWA and Delta's Section 1?

I do not expect the flow back to happen. I'm not saying it is not there.

I was just pointing out that it appeared that you were trying to portray the new CVG stuff as a total increase in positions. Also you keep trying to portray that the DC9s are getting replaced completely by RJs when in fact it is more likely now that we at mainline will be taking back flying soon.

is it Dec. 8th yet? :beer:

 

[~~~^~~~]

Super, didn't you write:

The kicker is it would be a significant move by mgmt to furlough because they will have to do it in seniority order and absorb the significant cost associated with all of the training events that would occur at all levels of both lists.

There are a number of factors that all point to No furloughs occurring. If further capacity cuts happen then we likely wont see any hiring next year and the increased staffing needs will be a wash.

If so, we are just echo'ing each other.

The numbers don't tell me that the DC9 is Lazarus. Unlike his miracle of being raised from the dead, Lazarus did not need a new paint job, interior and a C Check. He also did not eat more than anyone else.

We need to knock it off, the South Americans are getting worried about their spare parts supply. But if it really came back, I'd bid the left seat and be very happy about it. I don't mind good crow with a little BBQ sauce.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

As you can see from my ramblings, both private and public i ain't to quick.. Could you make your last sentance below mo clear???

I love DC9's. As General has alluded to, there seems to be another, better, reason for the DC9's from the desert rumor. It is a way to introduce a cheap competitor into negotiations for other airplanes in the 100 to 150 seat market.

 

[Superpilot92]

Super, didn't you write:
If so, we are just echo'ing each other.

The numbers don't tell me that the DC9 is Lazarus. Unlike his miracle of being raised from the dead, Lazarus did not need a new paint job, interior and a C Check. He also did not eat more than anyone else.

We need to knock it off, the South Americans are getting worried about their spare parts supply. But if it really came back, I'd bid the left seat and be very happy about it. I don't mind good crow with a little BBQ sauce.

We are in agreement that we likely wont see any backwards movement. But that has nothing to do with the discussion above does it? I was just pointing out that the DC9s DO have a purpose and can be very beneficial to the new DAL in "getting out of the RJ business", another DAL mgmt Honcho quote. Hopefully you will be having some Crow with BBQ sauce Might i suggest a good beer to wash it down with :beer:

 

[~~~^~~~]

As you can see from my ramblings, both private and public i ain't to quick.. Could you make your last sentance below mo clear???

Various rumors are going around about negotiations with Boeing & various MD90 operators around the World to obtain anything from a handful of 717's to a bunch of MD90's. Also rumors about the GTF version of an A320, 737's, and Bombardier's new C Series. Anyone who's talking doesn't know and people that know aren't talking.

The theory is that a used DC9 with zero acquisition cost can be used as a competitor to negotiate a lower capital expenditure on new equipment.

It could be. Someone else opined that the Company has it's hands full getting the current fleet under a SOC. Who knows?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

AWST talked about a re-engine mod to the 320, but they were skeptical about it. They did not want to impact the Next Gen model that will be coming out in about 2018.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The DC9s DO have a purpose and can be very beneficial to the new DAL in "getting out of the RJ business."

I am not sure Delta can get out of the RJ Business. Most of the F4D contracts have a fairly long duration and Mesa's case may be an indicator of what is necessary to break the contracts. Skywest is sitting on a Billion in cash - insolvency isn't an issue to break that contract.

Mesaba and Compass are still getting airplanes and there are around 10 still to be awarded large RJ's that the Company appears to be wanting to use for negotiations. ASA pilots report Delta offered SkyWest a lose two 50's, get a 900 deal that the Company passed on to avoid furloughs.

No doubt Delta would like to have fewer 50's, but it will be hard to pull them out of servce without parking Delta's own airplanes at Comair.

Mr. Bastian knows what pleases a mainline crowd. How many times have we heard about RJ reductions, but yet, how many new airplanes do you see out there?

I'd like to see Delta just buy the right sized airplane for the right routes and use a common list to fly them. To that point, I'd like to see Delta get in the RJ business and get away from outsourcing.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Don't we all FIN, but as they say, "Reality is a ....."


Fact is that I think that a lot of the words that are being spoken and talk that that is being offered up if for a bigger game. One that does not consider pilots and their careers. It is one that concerns money, profitability, and survivability.

I flew on a 170 yesterday, and I have to say. It is much nicer than an 88. Heck it was more comfortable that a 757. It has large windows and more room for the economy passenger. That is what we are competing against.
I agree, those jets need to be flown by mainline pilots. But, how do we get there.

 

[nwaredtail]

. But, how do we get there

.[/QUOTE]

First, you have to remember who the first pilot group to give up scope was. Hint: who has the most systemwide RJ's

 

[michael707767]

.
First, you have to remember who the first pilot group to give up scope was. Hint: who has the most systemwide RJ's

The Delta pilots have messed up huge in the past, allowing way to much outsourcing. The union has time and time again tried to give us reasons that it is good to allow more and bigger RJs, and to this day they deny it has cost us one pilot job. We all know that is pure B*llSh*t.

That said, having watched what went on here, why did the NWA pilots follow right down the same path we did?

It really doesn't matter who gave up scope first. You guys were stupid enough to do the same thing even after you saw the damage RJs have done here.

 

[Noserider76]

It really doesn't matter who gave up scope first. You guys were stupid enough to do the same thing even after you saw the damage RJs have done here.

And Compass took the thing to a whole new level of outsourcing.

 

[Fly4hire]

Lazarus did not need a new paint job, interior and a C Check.

It doesn't anymore than any other aircraft to make it standard with the DAL scheme. If you want to time the aircraft out on C checks you'll need to about 2024 before they are all gone.

As far as using to pressure against other 100 seat manufacturers, there are none that can provide 100 plus airframes today, or even in 5 years, and it's not to go against the DCI carriers - they are getting smaller and their contracts redone either way.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It doesn't anymore than any other aircraft to make it standard with the DAL scheme. If you want to time the aircraft out on C checks you'll need to about 2024 before they are all gone.

As far as using to pressure against other 100 seat manufacturers, there are none that can provide 100 plus airframes today, or even in 5 years, and it's not to go against the DCI carriers - they are getting smaller and their contracts redone either way.

There is a lot in play here. DCI contracts can be redone every five years as their contracts it these dates. They are coming up very soon. Pressure of a DC-9 or 717 in this economy would make a CEO think twice before telling the parent company to go pound sand.
These DC-9's and 717's are a interim 100 seat jet. They along with the 90's are available. As we can use them to drive costs down at DCI, we can also use DCI and the 9's to drive down the asking price of these other jets. It is one big game. Trust me it is being played.

 

[Full of LUV]

It seems pretty clear....

As you can see from my ramblings, both private and public i ain't to quick.. Could you make your last sentance below mo clear???

He is eluding to the fact that if you threaten to unretire a small fleet of DC9's from the desert, it forces potential suppliers of similar sized airplanes to "sharpen their pencil" in negotiations as the recall of DC9 can cost whatever DAL says it costs, but an EMB for example costs what EMB says.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The Delta pilots have messed up huge in the past, allowing way to much outsourcing. The union has time and time again tried to give us reasons that it is good to allow more and bigger RJs, and to this day they deny it has cost us one pilot job. We all know that is pure B*llSh*t.

Our union still has the same fundamental view with regard to outsourcing flying. ALPA's membership that cares is going to have to take responsibility for changing our Representatives' approach to the issue.

It is something that interested people need to talk to their Reps about every time that they see them.

 

[Superpilot92]

The Delta pilots have messed up huge in the past, allowing way to much outsourcing. The union has time and time again tried to give us reasons that it is good to allow more and bigger RJs, and to this day they deny it has cost us one pilot job. We all know that is pure B*llSh*t.

It really doesn't matter who gave up scope first.

Exactly! What DOES matter is who the first group to stand up and say no more is. That group can be Delta, especially with the size of our pilot group now.

 

[Schwanker]

And Compass took the thing to a whole new level of outsourcing.

Really? CPZ is set to take delivery of 36 76-seat jets. Each and everyone of these seats are available to NWA pilots in the event of furlough.

How is this a new level?

RJs play a smaller role in the NWA system than most.

Schwanker

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Compass pilots are basically a b-scale NWA.

So, NWA had some of the lowest rates in the industry and had a b-scale. Congrats.