Woerth to Head the FAA?

[stlflyguy]

+1

It's amazing to me how blind with anger some of you ALPA haters are. Duane running the FAA could be, in my opinion, a very positive thing for the airline piloting profession. I'm under no illusion that we're going to get everything we want just because we have Democrats in power and Duane possibly running the FAA but c'mon! A unionist, ex-airlne pilot running the FAA? I hope very much this comes true.

Forget about it--Duane's a f*&kin' mercenary. If it doesn't suit Duane, it isn't going to get done. Ask any TWA pilot...or better yet, wait for the evidence to become public.

stlflyguy

 

[JoeMerchant]

I can't believe the attitudes of some people on this board. If Duane is appointed to this position, you finally have a chance of getting good flight/duty time rules. Duane will also help the controllers get a decent contract so we don't have constant turnover in ATC positions and a bunch of inexperienced kids vectoring us around crowded airspace. I hope Duane gets it. We could use the help in high places.

...will he support MPL? We don't inexperienced kids sitting in the right seat either....but ALPA doesn't seem to oppose that.....

 

[PCL_128]

...will he support MPL

I highly doubt it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I highly doubt it.

....ALPA passed a resolution at the BOD supporting MPL....

 

[ualdriver]

....ALPA passed a resolution at the BOD supporting MPL....

I'm not familiar with the resolution, but I'll take your word for it that they did pass one.

But this represents yet another issue that ALPA has to face and they're "damned if they do, damned if they don't." Then they're criticized roundly no matter what they do.

So let's look at this MPL issue a different way.

You're criticizing ALPA for having passed a resolution supporting MPL. But lets say they do what you want, and condemn MPL and refuse to endorse it or participate in its formation in any way, shape, or form on principle. That would be the right thing to do in your opinion, correct, based upon your statement above?

One of two things then happen:

1) MPL comes anyway (which IMO will happen) and ALPA has no influence on what shapes MPL as it is developed in the U.S. Is that good for us or bad? If you're running a national union representing pilots that will be trained (eventually) under a MPL program, is that good or bad? If you're running a national union that will have members flying with MPL graduates, is that good or bad?

2) ALPA flexes its muscle and gets MPL killed soundly. Great, I guess? Now we have 300 hr. pilots sitting in the right seat of RJ's that go through ALL ATP's (or whoever) instead of MPL. Is that better for us or not?

If you had a 300 hr. pilot sitting next to you, what kind of training would you want that pilot to have had? MPL training that takes a guy from day one and trains him to be a co-pilot in a crew type environment in high performance aircraft simulators or a guy who did most of his training in a Cessna doing turns around a point and lazy 8's? I'm not sure what the correct answer is and there certainly isn't a good answer, but I would probably lean toward the MPL guy.

Now if your beef is 300 hr. pilots sitting in the right seat, shouldn't your (our) beef be with the FAA? They are the body that writes the rules, no? I wonder who it would be easier to convince about the dangers of putting a 300 hr. guy in the right seat of a high performance jet- Woerth or a guy who's never seen the inside of a cockpit?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not familiar with the resolution, but I'll take your word for it that they did pass one.

But this represents yet another issue that ALPA has to face and they're "damned if they do, damned if they don't." Then they're criticized roundly no matter what they do.

So let's look at this MPL issue a different way.

You're criticizing ALPA for having passed a resolution supporting MPL. But lets say they do what you want, and condemn MPL and refuse to endorse it or participate in its formation in any way, shape, or form on principle. That would be the right thing to do in your opinion, correct, based upon your statement above?

One of two things then happen:

1) MPL comes anyway (which IMO will happen) and ALPA has no influence on what shapes MPL as it is developed in the U.S. Is that good for us or bad? If you're running a national union representing pilots that will be trained (eventually) under a MPL program, is that good or bad? If you're running a national union that will have members flying with MPL graduates, is that good or bad?

2) ALPA flexes its muscle and gets MPL killed soundly. Great, I guess? Now we have 300 hr. pilots sitting in the right seat of RJ's that go through ALL ATP's (or whoever) instead of MPL. Is that better for us or not?

If you had a 300 hr. pilot sitting next to you, what kind of training would you want that pilot to have had? MPL training that takes a guy from day one and trains him to be a co-pilot in a crew type environment in high performance aircraft simulators or a guy who did most of his training in a Cessna doing turns around a point and lazy 8's? I'm not sure what the correct answer is and there certainly isn't a good answer, but I would probably lean toward the MPL guy.

Now if your beef is 300 hr. pilots sitting in the right seat, shouldn't your (our) beef be with the FAA? They are the body that writes the rules, no? I wonder who it would be easier to convince about the dangers of putting a 300 hr. guy in the right seat of a high performance jet- Woerth or a guy who's never seen the inside of a cockpit?

UAL,

This is precisely why ALPA is a failure....The AMA and ABA have done a good job keeping the barriers to entry high....We have failed....

There is NO other profession that allows such low entry requirements....You cannot demand doctor/lawyer type pay for a job that can be trained for in as little as 11 months.....

I have heard the argument you have made from many ALPA apologists...My question is why have other professions done a better job of keeping the entry requirements high.....They aren't even unions.....

 

[stlflyguy]

Spot on, Joe. If you watch the different trade unions (plumbers, pipefitters, carpenters, etc) you see their advertisements or hear their radio ads talking about their experience. Not once does ALPA make any type of advertisement (outside the rag, Air Line Pilot) to talk about the experience or trials and tribulations of their membership.

So it leaves the public guessing that all they need to do is head to their local airport and get a few licenses and then they're qualified to be $300k/year airline captains.

ALPA will look at MPL as just another vehicle in which to gain a dues paying member.

stlflyguy

 

[JoeMerchant]

Spot on, Joe. If you watch the different trade unions (plumbers, pipefitters, carpenters, etc) you see their advertisements or hear their radio ads talking about their experience. Not once does ALPA make any type of advertisement (outside the rag, Air Line Pilot) to talk about the experience or trials and tribulations of their membership.

So it leaves the public guessing that all they need to do is head to their local airport and get a few licenses and then they're qualified to be $300k/year airline captains.

ALPA will look at MPL as just another vehicle in which to gain a dues paying member.

stlflyguy

BINGO...ALPA is more concerned with collecting dues than actually defending the profession....Defending the profession is difficult when you support putting 200 hour pilots in the cockpit!

 

[WayBack]

BINGO...ALPA is more concerned with collecting dues than actually defending the profession....Defending the profession is difficult when you support putting 200 hour pilots in the cockpit!

I can't believe, ALPA, who is all about safety. Thinks it's a smart idea to put a no time guy in the right seat, allowing him to do the job that some guys with 1,000's of hours, have trouble doing.
I'd hate to be the captain, flying a 4 day trip on the East Coast, shooting CAT II approaches with one of these guys in the right seat.

I'm assuming that these guys would fly with a certified Captain, such as an IOE captain. I hope to God.

 

[ualdriver]

I can't believe, ALPA, who is all about safety. Thinks it's a smart idea to put a no time guy in the right seat, allowing him to do the job that some guys with 1,000's of hours, have trouble doing.

I can't believe it either. Can you find me one verifiable statement where an ALPA ranking official (or any major pilot union official) has stated "that it is a smart idea to put a no time guy in the right seat," or similar?

That goes for you too, Joe. Can you find me anything that states that ALPA wants to put 200 hr. pilots in the right seat of a jet? Please spare me the MPL argument as proof of such a statement.

Thanks.

P.S. I have some interesting stuff concerning the ABA and the AMA and the misconceptions you posted earlier.....post coming shortly

 

[ualdriver]

Spot on, Joe. If you watch the different trade unions (plumbers, pipefitters, carpenters, etc) you see their advertisements or hear their radio ads talking about their experience. Not once does ALPA make any type of advertisement (outside the rag, Air Line Pilot) to talk about the experience or trials and tribulations of their membership.

ALPA will look at MPL as just another vehicle in which to gain a dues paying member.

stlflyguy

You illustrate another "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation that ALPA finds itself in.

You seem to suggest that ALPA should spend dues money trying to explain to the public about the "trials and tribulations" of our membership. ALPA, in the past, has advertised points concerning our profession. In fact, there was an ad put up in the ORD terminal a while back. And do you know what many ALPA members had to say about that expenditure on various forums that I frequent? Can I paraphrase?

"Those ALPA guys, wasting all my money on advertising. Why do they waste their time trying to explain our profession to the public who could care less about us." "Gee, I wonder how much money that ad cost....." "Another example of ALPA wasting our dues money......."

So how does ALPA "win?" They advertise, some guys complain it's a waste of dues money. They don't advertise, and guys like you say we should be more like the trade unions and tell the world all about how tough our profession is.

Ah, forget it. I'm just an ALPA apologist anyway.

 

[ualdriver]

UAL,

This is precisely why ALPA is a failure....The AMA and ABA have done a good job keeping the barriers to entry high....We have failed....

Joe, you calling ALPA a failure and using the AMA and the ABA as an example of organizations that "keep the barriers high." I've heard these example quoted before but never really looked into the what control the AMA and the ABA have over doctors and lawyers.

So I did the unthinkable, Joe. I did a little research. I went to a forum that is frequented by physicians and lawyers and asked them about the AMA and the ABA and its "control" over its membership. You might find what a few guys had to say interesting.

All that answered (2 docs, 3 laywers) agreed that neither the AMA nor the ABA control how many doctors or lawyers come into their respective professions. Neither organization creates any barriers to those choosing to enter either profession. In fact, you can be a practicing doctor or lawyer and NEVER be a member of either organization. There are no professional repercussions if you choose not to be a member of either organization. One lawyer commented that the goverment (i.e. state legislation) controls who and who cannot practice law and how they can go about practicing law in a given state, not the ABA. One physician commented that the AMA has become less important in recent years, not more important. Another physician commented that the AAMCAS, if anyone, had control over who entered the medical profession, but even then they really didn't control it and as an organization it was bypassed.

You're taking ALPA's perceived failures and comparing them to a standard at other professional organizations that simply doesn't exist. So you can stop saying that ALPA is a failure because the AMA and the ABA control the supply and experience requirements of its membership and ALPA can't. Neither the ABA or the AMA do, nor could they if they wanted to. I suspect in a free market that any organization could not easily instate those kinds of controls, INCLUDING ALPA.

I have heard the argument you have made from many ALPA apologists...My question is why have other professions done a better job of keeping the entry requirements high.....They aren't even unions.....

First, I'm not an apologist. I'm just a guy who understands (or at least tries to understand) what ALPA can and cannot do and try to point out when members have unrealistic expectations of ALPA. As I have said repeatedly, I really don't care if ALPA represents us all or not. If something better comes along, I'm all for it. Right now, I'm taking a look around the industry and not seeing anything better than ALPA.

Second, now that we have elimated the "oft repeated" ABA and AMA examples, what other professions should ALPA be using as an example of keeping the entry barrier levels high or risk being seen as inadequate in your eyes?

 

[JoeMerchant]

ualdriver,
Your information simply isn't correct. Both the AMA and the ABA set the licensing and education standards for their respective professions....You don't see them trying to start a "fast track" doctor or lawyer program...They understand how that harms the profession.....

Here is some information to refute what you posted....Take a look and then we can continue the debate..
http://www.mises.org/story/1252

 

[stlflyguy]

You illustrate another "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation that ALPA finds itself in.

You seem to suggest that ALPA should spend dues money trying to explain to the public about the "trials and tribulations" of our membership. ALPA, in the past, has advertised points concerning our profession. In fact, there was an ad put up in the ORD terminal a while back. And do you know what many ALPA members had to say about that expenditure on various forums that I frequent? Can I paraphrase?

"Those ALPA guys, wasting all my money on advertising. Why do they waste their time trying to explain our profession to the public who could care less about us." "Gee, I wonder how much money that ad cost....." "Another example of ALPA wasting our dues money......."

So how does ALPA "win?" They advertise, some guys complain it's a waste of dues money. They don't advertise, and guys like you say we should be more like the trade unions and tell the world all about how tough our profession is.

Ah, forget it. I'm just an ALPA apologist anyway.

You don't have to apologize for being an apologist. In the airline industry, we're all apologists. "Sorry, we're late..." "Sorry for the bumps..." "Sorry, we're not quite at our gate yet..." "Sorry, they said it'd be just a few more bags/passengers/minutes.." "Sorry, I can't find you a seat." "Sorry, you're just going to have to grieve it."

I'd rather have the expenditures being seen than not. At least as a dues paying member, I could actually SEE where my money is going. It's when I don't see where the funds are going that I start to wonder just what it's being used for.

I think every ALPA member should get a copy of the Union's Statement of Germane and Non-Germane Expenses so that they can see--at least to some degree--where their money goes. Couple that to the annual LM-2 and you might be at the doorstep of disclosing what really happens to the funding.

stlflyguy

 

[ualdriver]

ualdriver,
Your information simply isn't correct. Both the AMA and the ABA set the licensing and education standards for their respective professions....You don't see them trying to start a "fast track" doctor or lawyer program...They understand how that harms the profession.....

Here is some information to refute what you posted....Take a look and then we can continue the debate..
http://www.mises.org/story/1252

I'll have to admit it was an interesting article. But no Joe, I'm pretty confident that my information is correct as I typed it. The AMA and the ABA DO NOT set licensing and education standards. They may influence those standards through lobbing, participation in legislation, etc. (just as ALPA does), but they do not set those standards. In fact, from your own article:

"......and can be seen in the behavior of such organizations as the American Medical Association, the American Bar Association, and others. Very often, such bodies lobby the government to institute stiff requirements in order to acquire a license to practice............medical, legal, or other services......"

Also, as I stated in my post, neither of those organizations control the ability of anyone to become a doctor or lawyer. If you want to do it and you have the brains, you can do it. You don't have to ask the AMA or the ABA for permission or approval. They don't restrict entry into the profession as I stated.

And I'd argue that this profession already has stiff requirements.....finacial ones.....yet still there is no shortage of guys wanting to be pilots. What should ALPA do about that to "protect the guild?"

You mention in a previous post that the ABA and the AMA "do a good job of keeping the barriers to entry high." What should ALPA do to throw some obstacles up? Maybe make it harder for an older, overweight, out of shape guy to maintain a First Class Medical? That will weed a lot of guys out under the guise of "safety" for our newly formed cartel. Should we make the cost of obtaining one's certificates even more than 10's of thousands of dollars it costs already?

But getting back to the point of this thread, maybe ALPA should lobby for changes in the RLA (could happen)? Changes in FAA rest requirements (could happen)? Changes in min required hours for RJ right seaters (good luck!)? Do you think an ex-airline pilot unionist like Woerth might help us with some of those issues? Or perhaps you think some lawyer using the FAA Admistrator's office as a stepping stone to bigger and better things would better serve us?